Newest Labs From Daily Protocol

[Willyt]

@JA Battle menioned in another thread that Emeric rotates between 8 week cycles of 10mg and 5mg with occasional 20mg.

Interesting how low you can go and still get positive results. Our own @Cataceous pioneered a blended prop-enanthate approach at 5-6mg daily.

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Strengthandlibido]

@JA Battle menioned in another thread that Emeric rotates between 8 week cycles of 10mg and 5mg with occasional 20mg.

Interesting how low you can go and still get positive results. Our own @Cataceous pioneered a blended prop-enanthate approach at 5-6mg daily.

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com

Yep, but Emeric's last post on the matter had him cycling between 10 mg daily and 6 mg daily every eight weeks. I wonder if he's really onto something with cycling low doses, maybe letting androgen receptors freshen up. I doubt there are any studies cycling physiological dosing.

 

[Strengthandlibido]

Thanks man. So your current low dose protocol has you at those test levels? Or those were before this current protocol?

I found some records from 2018 where I was on 25 mg test E EOD for at least four weeks and got these results:
Estradiol, Ultra LC/MS/MS 54, < or = 29 pg/mL
Testosterone, T LC/MS/MS 779, 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 261.5, 35.0-155.0 pg/mL
Free T, calculated-V 26.3 ng/dL Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
SHBG 13, 10-50 nmol/L

TT was 779 while E2 and FT were still high. I'd planned to step it down to 15 mg EOD after that, but I didn't keep records after that and just stopped self-directed TRT entirely in the latter half of that year. But I'd say my numbers were pretty respectable on just 25 mg EOD.

 

[JA Battle]

I found some records from 2018 where I was on 25 mg test E EOD for at least four weeks and got these results:
Estradiol, Ultra LC/MS/MS 54, < or = 29 pg/mL
Testosterone, T LC/MS/MS 779, 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 261.5, 35.0-155.0 pg/mL
Free T, calculated-V 26.3 ng/dL Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
SHBG 13, 10-50 nmol/L

TT was 779 while E2 and FT were still high. I'd planned to step it down to 15 mg EOD after that, but I didn't keep records after that and just stopped self-directed TRT entirely in the latter half of that year. But I'd say my numbers were pretty respectable on just 25 mg EOD.

I’ve gone as low as 5.5mg daily with enanth. I felt pretty good.

My e2 was 13 though.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I found some records from 2018 where I was on 25 mg test E EOD for at least four weeks and got these results:
Estradiol, Ultra LC/MS/MS 54, < or = 29 pg/mL
Testosterone, T LC/MS/MS 779, 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 261.5, 35.0-155.0 pg/mL
Free T, calculated-V 26.3 ng/dL Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
SHBG 13, 10-50 nmol/L

TT was 779 while E2 and FT were still high. I'd planned to step it down to 15 mg EOD after that, but I didn't keep records after that and just stopped self-directed TRT entirely in the latter half of that year. But I'd say my numbers were pretty respectable on just 25 mg EOD.

Yeah, same here with 25mg EOD. I don't recall the exact numbers, but my free T was way too high.

 

[GreenMachineX]

My result is quite similar with you (with same protocol minus DHEA and I'm not expert on DHEA)...except my FT is little bit lower than you.

Regarding headache due to low BP it is very easy to be determined. If your headache is coming from moving position from sitting to standup, it is low BP issue. You may want to drop any -sartan medication.

If your headache is general and has a sleep issue, check your Ferritin level in case it's too low.

With this daily protocol I also notice my penis is longer rather than 2x or 3x a week. If I miss a day then it's getting shorter LOL

With daily protocol also my morning wood is there, with our without Cialis. Cialis only makes it stronger (sometimes too strong)...

I've been thinking about this ferritin issue. Last year, my ferritin was 150, and I've donated 5 times since then (spaced 2-3 months apart). I've been deficient in ferritin before and this feels different than then, but there's several variables that are different. I'll get it tested to ensure, but that donation frequency shouldn't deplete my iron, should it? I eat 8 oz beef every day, 3-4 whole eggs and 8 oz chicken and take 1g vitamin C every meal.

If ferritin is my issue, I'm literally thanking God I didn't have any covid complications a few weeks ago since iron is important for the immune system.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Update: Woke up with extreme anxiety and heart rate flying. Can't live like this. Reverting everything back to what it was when I was *mostly* stable and what I beat Covid with. Took 10mg sublingual DHEA, 10mg testosterone cyp, started my telmisartan again, and found the leftover generic levothyroxine and used that instead. I'll check my blood pressure in a few hours since I know it's through the roof now just by my anxiety level.

Couple of guesses are 8mg test doesn't give me enough e2. Some history, I've had borderline low e2 the entire time of TRT, and only once was it 22. It's typically 12-17. Sleep was trash again last night, also backing up this theory (or maybe the Synthroid theory down below).

The only difference between what i did today and what i was doing with Covid was I was at 15mg DHEA and taking 250mg resveratrol. In a couple days, depending on how going back to this protocol is, maybe I should add back in the resveratrol or increase the DHEA to 15mg again. I had changed to brand name Synthroid and dropped the resveratrol the same day and that's when things started changing. I honestly didn't and still hesitant to believe Synthroid is that much stronger than generic and generic was better for me. Also, should I be feeling hyperthyroidism symptoms like clammy hands and feet from only 1 week on brand name? Seems silly. My thought is, if I can beat covid on that protocol, it's probably best to go back to that and start over with tinkering.

Last possibility, I've missed my nightly dose of magnesium a couple times, but still getting in 150mg shortly after breakfast. Typically I take 450mg total but again, how could missing just a couple doses result in these effects?

The low e2 theory makes the most sense to me. If they seems all over the place, yeah, probably is. Any thoughts are always welcome.

Lastly, to clarify, I didn't beat Covid. I give God the credit there.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Update:
Ferritin 80 ng/mL (30-380)

I'm guessing that ferritin is sufficient since it's pretty far from the bottom of the range. I will not be donating for quite a while though.

Otherwise, my anxiety seems to hit in the morning if I wait to take sublingual DHEA too long, or it'll hit hard around 6pm and last all night for the same reason. I think I'll need to try sublingual DHEA 3 times per day to control it. I'm also experiencing palpitations and what I think are ectopic heartbeats. The ectopic heartbeats feel like my heart flops just for a second. Also, only in the middle of the night, after going to the bathroom for example, I'll lay down and feel out of breath for a couple minutes. I've had all these symptoms before, but a couple years ago and cannot remember how I addressed it. But I've had ekgs, stress tests, 30-day Holter monitor, etc and it never found anything. It's been a few years for that as well, so I'll be making an appointment with my doctor to ensure it's nothing different or dangerous. It's bizarre how all day I can get absolutely fine (great, even) yet early morning and middle of night are not fun.

I also just started a thread regarding fish oil and SHBG. I'm hoping dropping the fish oil dose let's my SHBG rise to give more opportunity for e2 to rise.

I'm still using 10mg test cyp per day. I'll likely add back in resveratrol as well since I didn't feel those heart symtoms or breathlessness when using it. It's probably just a band aid but there is research on resveratrol treating arrhythmia. We'll see.

 

[ajax31]

Update:
Ferritin 80 ng/mL (30-380)

I'm guessing that ferritin is sufficient since it's pretty far from the bottom of the range. I will not be donating for quite a while though.

Otherwise, my anxiety seems to hit in the morning if I wait to take sublingual DHEA too long, or it'll hit hard around 6pm and last all night for the same reason. I think I'll need to try sublingual DHEA 3 times per day to control it. I'm also experiencing palpitations and what I think are ectopic heartbeats. The ectopic heartbeats feel like my heart flops just for a second. Also, only in the middle of the night, after going to the bathroom for example, I'll lay down and feel out of breath for a couple minutes. I've had all these symptoms before, but a couple years ago and cannot remember how I addressed it. But I've had ekgs, stress tests, 30-day Holter monitor, etc and it never found anything. It's been a few years for that as well, so I'll be making an appointment with my doctor to ensure it's nothing different or dangerous. It's bizarre how all day I can get absolutely fine (great, even) yet early morning and middle of night are not fun.

I also just started a thread regarding fish oil and SHBG. I'm hoping dropping the fish oil dose let's my SHBG rise to give more opportunity for e2 to rise.

I'm still using 10mg test cyp per day. I'll likely add back in resveratrol as well since I didn't feel those heart symtoms or breathlessness when using it. It's probably just a band aid but there is research on resveratrol treating arrhythmia. We'll see.

I would encourage you to go back to a cardiologist and get checked again. If they still can’t make a diagnosis or find anything wrong, you may want to try the amino acid taurine. I have read anecdotal reports that it might help with palpitations and an irregular heart beat. But check with your doctor first and always.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I would encourage you to go back to a cardiologist and get checked again. If they still can’t make a diagnosis or find anything wrong, you may want to try the amino acid taurine. I have read anecdotal reports that it might help with palpitations and an irregular heart beat. But check with your doctor first and always.

Thanks and yeah. Will do. But no taurine. For some reason even that gives me insomnia.

 

[xcpatr922]

the meds for anxiety/heart rate issue/dyspnea/palpitation are ultimately beta blockers, but if I were you I will try to reduce which meds/activities that are causing so much of bad effect. Also, you need to be careful what you eat (less caffeine, chocolate,etc). You also need to reduce your anxiety by activating parasympathetic nerves/dopamine increase like more relaxation, more team sports exercise, massage, having regular sex, and/or having a cold shower.

When I have anxiety a long time ago, it was caused by too much reading and afraid of news, so I delete all social media, did not watch TV at all, and did not even take postal mail LOL....

beta-blocker has its own problem though.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Little update here: I've posted elsewhere about my issues with dhea and fish oil, and some dropping both, even though it's only been a couple to a few days, I'm sleeping better and anxiety is improving. I still have a ways to go for the anxiety, but any improvement is better than where I was. I still have chest flutters that coincide with the anxiety which are the worst part. But, the interesting thing is there is definitely a "time rhythm" to the anxiety. It's worse from 6am to 10am, then again about 6pm to bed time. I get about 8 hours per day of feeling almost normal.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I’ve gone as low as 5.5mg daily with enanth. I felt pretty good.

My e2 was 13 though.

I think this is where I'm at right now with my e2 every time I try to drop to 8mg test cyp daily, and 10mg isn't much higher (since I cut out dhea completely). Getting labs drawn right now to see if it's true, or I'm crazy. Chest flutters every morning and night, terrible sleep again (2 hours last night!), and crippling anxiety with the chest flutters. Getting total T, free T, SHBG, and Ultrasensitive e2 drawn...and free T3 to ensure my synthroid is working well enough, or not too well.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Another update here: today I increased my test just a little more, maybe 11 or 12mg. I realize this is marginally more and for 99.99999% of people, no one should feel this difference, but I do. Heart rate was up to 105 an hour ago, but I was able to bring it down to high 70's to low 80's with 150mg magnesium and 200mg theanine.

The funny thing is, my anxiety is basically gone. I'm obviously concerned with this heart rate (and likely blood pressure but I won't take it), but it's different. This just reinforces the idea that 8mg testosterone daily for me doesn't provide enough e2, but the amount of test I need to get enough obviously is a problem too. Tomorrow, I'll drop back to 9-ish mg testosterone, and start the fish oil just at half dose again, 1.2g. I think the 2.4g epa/dha was suppressing cortisol just too much and causing issues. But, it also suppresses NE and this overstimulation feeling to a certain extent and let's me sleep. I'm hoping that maybe the fish oil will let me bring my test dose up to par and keep cardiovascular numbers in line. It was only a couple weeks ago my BP was perfect, but I felt pretty bad too (headache, dizzy, lethargic).

Sleep has been an issue the past 3 days, so I've had to resort to 2mg melatonin to sleep which worked mildly well. I got enough sleep to function today. I'll have it ready for tonight as well if I wake up overstimulated again and take another 150mg magnesium as well.

I know there's a lot of speculation in this, but I'm at a loss and NOTHING normal I've done the past few years has resulted in normal or decent results. Very curious to see my shbg and e2 as of yesterday. I'll post those results when I get them.

 

[GreenMachineX]

My newest e2 lab:
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LCMS 33 pg/mL (<29)

Perfect e2, right?
This was after stopping resveratrol for several weeks (labs on first page were 2 days after dropping resveratrol), then 3 days after dropping fish oil (which was 4 days after cutting fish oil dose in half), and 5 days after dropping dhea. Hope that wasn't confusing. The lab didn't get free T, total T, free T3, and shbg and I've created a support ticket for that. We'll see.

What drove me to get those Labs was because I only slept 2 hours. It was awful. I've since been having the hardest time sleeping still which is why I'm posting and not sleeping now. Looks like I'll end up taking a ton of melatonin again tonight. The pattern appears that either dropping fish oil or dhea caused the insomnia and other "overstimulation" feeling. I didn't have it today, Praise God, but still can't sleep. Problem with megadosing melatonin are the scary side effects it gives like cold chills/tremors, more chest flutters, and chest tightness/breathing abnormalities which last until about 10am.

I've been back on fish oil for 3 days which I think controls the overstimulation feeling. Tomorrow I'll test very low dose DHEA to see if that helps. The reason I dropped it was several days after dropping fish oil it resulted in a different type of overstimulation (hard to describe difference but the dhea overstimulation felt like my heart would pop, chest tightness, anxiety, uneaseness, while the more recent feeling was in my brain). What's more bizarre is in the middle of the night when I can't sleep, my heart rate is only 60-something so I don't feel jacked up, just can't sleep. Wish I had that free T3 done, but even if my thyroid results were hyper, my heart rate wouldn't be only 60-65 ever, correct? Even after typing all this, and laying here, for a few seconds, heart rate was 59. I'm perplexed.

Side note: my anxiety is at a very low spot. I can actually control how far I ruminate something whereas before, hypochondria won every time followed by panic attacks.

TLDR: something is giving me an overstimulated feeling even though labs are all fine, and apparently fish oil hides it. Could top of range free T do that? Or maybe cortisol surges now that I'm off dhea? I'm hoping that I'm back on fish oil I can tolerate dhea again and that allows me to sleep again, otherwise I'm at a loss.

I gotta figure this out because sleep deprivation isn't good for anything, but my biggest concern is my immune system. I've been clear of covid for 1 month, and I don't want omicron. I've been getting 2-4 broken hours of sleep for 1 week now. I'm over this.

@Nelson Vergel @Vince @Cataceous
Any thoughts at all welcome. Thanks guys. I'm desperate.

 

[Vince]

Melatonin supplementation has shown a multitude of positive health effects for many health issues including PD and a multitude of other health issues. Unfortunately, melatonin production declines with age, steadily reducing the potential health benefits associated with adequate melatonin levels throughout the body.

Okay, so then if we simply take melatonin in supplement form, shouldn't we be okay? Yes and no. Some people are simply not able to tolerate oral melatonin for various reasons while others, such as myself, can tolerate melatonin at even higher dosing than typically used. So how does someone who does not tolerate melatonin well, increase their melatonin levels? First, it should be noted that when melatonin is produced in the body in sufficient amounts to help maintain health, it does not cause the intolerance that some people experience from melatonin supplements and that is important. Everyone tolerates melatonin produced in the body, so natural production in the body seems like a very good way to achieve sufficient melatonin status.

Three important areas where melatonin is produced in the body is in the pineal gland located in the brain, the gut and the mitochondria. In order of level of production, the pineal gland produces the least, the gut is estimated to produce over 400 times the amount produced in the pineal gland and since all cells in the body, except red blood sells, contain mitochondria, the mitochondria are likely the highest producers of melatonin in the body. Each cell in the body can contain varying amounts of mitochondria which can exceed 2000, but the numbers vary greatly depending on many factors such as the tissue examined, antioxidant status, time of day etc., but this gives you an idea of how much melatonin production we are talking about when it comes to mitochondria. Mitochondria can also draw melatonin into the mitochondria if needed, but if it already has sufficiency, then that melatonin can be used elsewhere.

This clearly gives a clue about the importance of melatonin in mitochondria to almost instantaneously neutralize the Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) radical that is produced as part of the normal mitochondria function and further elucidates the importance of melatonin to maintain health and life. I will discuss the gut aspect of melatonin later.

In 2019, professor Reiter, a world renowned melatonin researcher for over 40 years with hundreds of studies listed on PubMed in conjunction with Scott Zimmerman did an extensive review of research which showed many interesting things, one of which is that exposure to the near infrared (NIR) light range from the sun helped to improve mitochondria function and also increased mitochondria melatonin production. These are two important things that infrared light therapy is thought to do also. Their review also showed that infrared light, which is not visible to the human eye, can penetrate the skull and can increase pineal melatonin production. It is only a hypothesis on their part, but their ideas are in line with what other researchers have shown in previous studies and similar to the thinking behind man made NIR studies. They have taken some of this individual research and combined it to form a more complete idea of the relation ship of melatonin, NIR, mitochondria and human health.

melatonin-research.net/inde...

I would just like to take a moment to recommend reading their full study because it covers a lot of ground and has useful information in it. It is long, but worthwhile reading. One interesting message was that NIR from the sun may penetrate significantly deeper into the brain via the cerebral spinal fluid around the brain interacting with gray matter than is currently thought possible.

In the following study, it is shown that the use of whole body NIR in the form of red light therapy not only increased athlete melatonin serum levels, sleep and sleep quality, but it also improved endurance. So red light therapy is a third option to increase melatonin levels, but NIR from the sun is free and stronger than some red light treatment options which can get quite expensive.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...

Here is a useful quote from the study above :

>>> ' We have demonstrated that red-light illumination positively affected sleep quality and endurance performance variables in Chinese female basketball players. Based on previous studies,6,12,14,15,33 we can infer that red-light treatment contributes to increased melatonin secretion in the pineal gland and muscle regeneration. ' <<<

So one of two options to increase melatonin levels without the side effects associated with melatonin such as next day drowsiness, vivid dreams or nightmares is to get sun exposure. Artificial NIR red light therapy can also increase melatonin levels, but this option comes at significant cost whereas sun exposure is free! Another consideration is that in the study above, they used whole body NIR exposure. There are many red light therapy devices, and most that cost under $1000 are not going to be whole body applications, but rather partial body applications such as a knee or lower back and potentially weak devices compared to NIR from the sun. When you get into professional grade whole body units, you are generally going to be spending thousands of dollars. The sun is free and gives whole body coverage at no extra charge!

The second way to increase melatonin is natural also. This way involves increasing short chain fatty acids (SCFAs). Keep in mind that melatonin production in humans declines with age. Similarly, SCFAs decline with age and have shown in studies to not only increase melatonin levels in the gut, but also melatonin receptors. SCFAs in combination with melatonin and melatonin receptors improve mucosal gut barrier function as well as improve tight junctions as well as epithelial function all contributing to improved gut barrier function and reduced gut permeability as well as reduced gut inflammation and oxidative stress throughout the body. It is worth noting that in cases of many diseases such as PD, the normal age related decline of SCFAs, melatonin and melatonin receptors are further increased, so increasing production of these is a very important step in improving the disease state, but also health in general.

On that note here is a partial list of items that have shown the ability to increase SCFAs or improve the gut microbiome in such a way as to help produce more SCFAs.

1. Vitamin D - also improves gut barrier function

2. Vitamin C - may have synergy with vitamin B2 and also decreases certain pathogenic bacteria

3. Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) also improves gut microbiome balance

4. Fish Oil - also noted for its potent anti inflammatory effects

5. N Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) - very well noted as a potent antioxidant and mucolytic

6. Exercise - already established as one of the more healthful things that people can do for improved health and physical function

7. Algal Oil / Algae Oil - similar effects to fish oil via DHA and EPA omega 3's

8. Berberine - anti inflammatory anti oxidative stress, anti diabetic and also noted for improving cognitive function

9. Fasting - in different forms such as intermittent fasting or Ramadan fasting

10. Pistachios - also supplies needed fiber to feed SCFA producing bacteria

11. Probiotics / Synbiotics - also alter the gut microbiome in healthful ways

12 Prebiotics - especially useful for feeding SCFA producing bacteria.

13 Fermented Foods and Beverages

14. Oat Beta Glucan

15. Orange Juice - also offers anti diabetes benefits

16. Fiber in multiple forms including fermentable fiber through multiple forms of fruits and vegetables

17. Mannitol - is also noted by some people as helpful in improving quality of life in PD

18. Xylitol - has also shown usefulness as a low glycemic index sugar substitute

19. Black Tea - but not green tea can increase SCFAs

So as you can see, there are many ways to increase SCFAs as a means to increase melatonin production and melatonin receptors in the gut, improve gut barrier function, reduce leaky gut/gut permeability, reduce oxidative stress and inflammation.

Here you have two simple and effective ways to increase melatonin in the pineal gland, gut and mitochondria to take advantage of melatonin's many positive health effects without the side effects associated with melatonin supplementing. Melatonin naturally produced in the body does not have side effects, only positive health effects. This makes melatonin a viable health improving option for EVERYONE, not just those who can tolerate oral melatonin supplements!

I hope that this article shows how much the body uses melatonin for a multitude of functions in all areas of the body and exactly how mandatory melatonin is for maintaining health and life. This article goes hand in hand with all that I have written about the health benefits of melatonin in people and hopefully it further conveys exactly how needed melatonin is for sustaining our health.

This should be helpful for people who live in areas of the world where melatonin is only available by prescription in very small dosages.

Our bodies have evolved under the sun from the beginning of time and have adapted to make the most of what the sun has to offer and over 50% of what the sun brings to Earth is infrared light. That seems like a very important fact to me.

Seven Natural Ways To Get Melatonin Witho... - Cure Parkinson's

In this initial post I only mention two of the seven ways to increase melatonin without supplementing. To see the other five ways, you will have to scroll down into the thread and look at my replies...

healthunlocked.com

 

[Cataceous]

...
TLDR: something is giving me an overstimulated feeling even though labs are all fine, and apparently fish oil hides it. Could top of range free T do that? ...

It is one possibility. I can't even inject testosterone in the evening without experiencing sleep disturbances. I also experienced modest improvements in sleep quality and duration when I began using a propionate/enanthate blend, which when injected each morning leads to lower serum testosterone over the course of each night. In any case, lower dosing is worth trying. It's unlikely that in a healthy natural state you would have top-of-range free testosterone.

 

[GreenMachineX]

It is one possibility. I can't even inject testosterone in the evening without experiencing sleep disturbances. I also experienced modest improvements in sleep quality and duration when I began using a propionate/enanthate blend, which when injected each morning leads to lower serum testosterone over the course of each night. In any case, lower dosing is worth trying. It's unlikely that in a healthy natural state you would have top-of-range free testosterone.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence, and I think I'm on to something. When I was on 100mg once per week, I slept great but hct was too high. Several years later, then I did 80mg twice per week, I slept great but again hct too high. When I dropped to 60mg twice per week, I started fine but hct stayed too high. Then dropped to 50mg twice per week, HCT improved, but palpitations developed and and sleep was terrible the night I worked out oddly enough. Had every cardiac test done, all clear.

Then switched to 20mg EOD and felt fantastic...for 8 weeks. Experimented with 22mg EOD and figured out I couldn't go below that or I would have terrible sleep issues. 16mg EOD was absolutely horrific for sleep. I settled on 25mg EOD for probably 6 months, but didn't like my hct at 52, so switched to daily 9-10mg. Felt awesome for the first 4-6 weeks...then trouble sleeping after my workouts began. A few weeks later, here we are...can't sleep and palpitations are back. A couple times in there I tried to drop to 8mg ED and slept terrible again.

I can't explain it, but perhaps I'm clearing the test cyp way faster than I should (I believe I've said this in other threads), even though my free T looks great. Maybe it drops way too low at night? I'm going to try 12mg ED for a couple days and see what happens.

I'm also adding a tiny bit of dhea back in, just 2.5mg sublingual today. Maybe 5mg tomorrow.

 

[Cataceous]

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence, and I think I'm on to something. ...

What I mean is that only a few percent of men naturally have top-of-range or higher free testosterone. Therefore this level of testosterone is likely to be unnaturally high for your physiology. It sounds like you haven't ever tried targeting mid-range free testosterone. To have a fair evaluation it needs to be for a prolonged period of time. In the short-term dose decreases often make guys feel lousy. You have to give your body time to adapt.

 

[GreenMachineX]

What I mean is that only a few percent of men naturally have top-of-range or higher free testosterone. Therefore this level of testosterone is likely to be unnaturally high for your physiology. It sounds like you haven't ever tried targeting mid-range free testosterone. To have a fair evaluation it needs to be for a prolonged period of time. In the short-term dose decreases often make guys feel lousy. You have to give your body time to adapt.

Gotcha. I did somewhat try targeting mid-range with 50mg twice per week, but injection day always had me way high, while trough was mid-range. I'll try again when my sleep is stable which I'm hoping comes with this next adjustment below...

I just took the sublingual DHEA and it was either coincidence, or it literally shut down the overstimulation I was dealing within 30 minutes. Palpitations are going away and I feel a ton more relaxed. Didn't know there was such a thing as DHEA withdrawal...I could be wrong, but I feel the way I think I should feel for not having slept but 45 minutes.