New thoughts on AI

[James]

There’s actually no evidence of high e2 being bad when test is also high.

The TOT guys preach zero ai fo TRT doses, and the levels for TRT are loose. Suggestion is lower the dose if needed and skip ai. I agree.

I feel like garbage when my E2 is even marginally high, regardless how high my TT & FT get. I take 1/8th mg AI twice weekly, which brings my E2 down to the mid-teens. Relief! I haven't had much success with the notion that E2 is best when within a certain percentage of your T. I try to match my E2 to my low SHBG (mid teens for both). All the evidence I need.

 

[Jeromefrance]

I feel like garbage when my E2 is even marginally high, regardless how high my TT & FT get. I take 1/8th mg AI twice weekly, which brings my E2 down to the mid-teens. Relief! I haven't had much success with the notion that E2 is best when within a certain percentage of your T. I try to match my E2 to my low SHBG (mid teens for both). All the evidence I need.

It is the same for me. I have tried very low dose like 80mg per week and my e2 was still high end of the range and moreover did not felt well with a mid range free T. Best for me To have high end free T and control e2. Thats it for me.

 

[seb288]

Here's the reference. They found that the constants do vary significantly between young and old men—see Table 3. The work shows the same general form applies to DHT conversion.

PubMed Central Image Viewer.

I prefer to use square root because its simpler and there's no unknown constants (whereas in that formula a and b are unknown, and it takes several blood tests and mathematical extrapolation to calculate a and b).

Also, do you even agree with their rectangular hyperbolae approximation? I don't even agree with it because it necessitates a maximum value for E, whereas I've found that E just keeps increasing, to the point that some Bodybuilders (using very high dose T) start growing breasts and even lactating when their T levels get high enough. Also men on high dose T cycles often prefer letro over aromasin, which can eliminate 98% of E - if E maxed out surely E would be increasing so slowly in the super high T range that it would be pointless to use arimidex or aromasin let alone requiring letrozole?

I've tried graphing it out with different levels for A and B, and B limits E2, unless we use a very high level B that can produce lactation, but in that case for therapeutic/natural T levels, E2 rise becomes almost linear, completely unlike the graph that I've linked you too. So I currently still disagree with the y=ax/b+x approximation. I think their T range was too small which led to their approximation.

According to my approximation, 20 is a good level of E2 of a T of 400, E2 of 25 is good for T of 625, 27 E2 good for 730 T, 30 E good for 900 T and 35 E good for 1225 T. Because a young healthy virile male displays T 900 - 730 and E 30 - 27, I like to peak at 900 (30E) and trough at 730 (27E).

 

[seb288]

I feel like garbage when my E2 is even marginally high, regardless how high my TT & FT get. I take 1/8th mg AI twice weekly, which brings my E2 down to the mid-teens. Relief! I haven't had much success with the notion that E2 is best when within a certain percentage of your T. I try to match my E2 to my low SHBG (mid teens for both). All the evidence I need.

I like that you match your SHBG with your E, very smart!

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I like that you match your SHBG with your E, very smart!

Does not work as a blanket guideline. I have SHBG generally 46-50, do best with E2 25-29

 

[MarcoFL]

Does not work as a blanket guideline. I have SHBG generally 46-50, do best with E2 25-29

Just curious how do you manage your E2 to that level? I had tried to just let mine go and was a big mistake.

 

[James]

Does not work as a blanket guideline. I have SHBG generally 46-50, do best with E2 25-29

True - It's what works for me and a suggestion for the low SHBG guys. SHBG is so huge in my experience when dialing in a correct TRT protocol.

 

[Vince Carter]

Getting trough E2 to mirror or be a little less than my SHBG has been a real improvement for my TRT experience.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Just curious how do you manage your E2 to that level? I had tried to just let mine go and was a big mistake.

Lowered T cyp dosage, more frequent injections, finally added microdose AI. I am still trying to tweak to reduce/eliminate the anastrozole.

Currently:
12mg T cyp daily
100iu HCG daily
0.03mg anastrozole daily.

This is just my 4th day on daily injection switching from EOD, dosage was double the above EOD. So far it hasn't been pretty, I put on 4-5lbs water weight (I am normally only 145lb so it feels proportionally like a lot) and was getting unusually short of breath with exercise, but today the water retention seems to be starting to subside. We'll see.

 

[Vince Carter]

And you don't feel that 12mg/D is going to have your Free T under the lab range? That's what I found for myself as a trough number. How do you think it will be for you?

 

[Gman86]

Lowered T cyp dosage, more frequent injections, finally added microdose AI. I am still trying to tweak to reduce/eliminate the anastrozole.

Currently:
12mg T cyp daily
100iu HCG daily
0.03mg anastrozole daily.

This is just my 4th day on daily injection switching from EOD, dosage was double the above EOD. So far it hasn't been pretty, I put on 4-5lbs water weight (I am normally only 145lb so it feels proportionally like a lot) and was getting unusually short of breath with exercise, but today the water retention seems to be starting to subside. We'll see.

That’s interesting. So you initially saw some water weight gain just from going from EOD to ED injections, while literally changing nothing else other than the injection frequency?

 

[Deleted member 16042]

And you don't feel that 12mg/D is going to have your Free T under the lab range? That's what I found for myself as a trough number. How do you think it will be for you?

Yeah it's been a fine line. I've been playing with reducing dose for a long long time. It is likely I'll bump it to 14/day. I was feeling better previously on 28 EOD. I dropped from there to 24, and felt OK not great, then tried 22 and felt like shit. I am hoping that the more frequent dose will nudge the trough hence baseline a tiny bit higher.

Vince, I have had quite a rough dance between dosage that was too high, high HCT, E2 and PSA, and keeping free T high enough. Last labs on 24 EOD:

TT 926
FT 17.9
E2 29.9

And to keep it all together this was on

24mg T cyp EOD
200iu HCG EOD
0.06mg anastrozole EOD

So Free T not in the gutter, but not great.

HCT now is well in range at 44.9, but this may also be influenced by my monoclonal B cell lymphocytosis. ALC just keeps rising and could be starting to crowd out other cells.

(Edit: LOL!!! Referencing the TruT free T calculation, my free T is right in top of range anyway...who do you believe for labs?)

 

[Deleted member 16042]

That’s interesting. So you initially saw some water weight gain just from going from EOD to ED injections, while literally changing nothing else other than the injection frequency?

Yes, though I have other stuff like the lymphocytosis as well, but to my knowledge that would not produce bloating and wobbly fat on a skinny guy.

 

[fifty]

And you don't feel that 12mg/D is going to have your Free T under the lab range? That's what I found for myself as a trough number. How do you think it will be for you?

When you say under lab range do you mean under the range top number?

 

[n2turbo2]

I have stopped my AI 3 times.From listening to people's telling me i don't need them. I feel awesome on trt,as long as i keep it below E2 80 . I have gone as high as 180. First i start not being able to sleep, i feel really restless.Then crying like a baby, anxiety and neg thoughts and Really emotional. I told my doctor i am getting off TRT. He said take the AI, you will be fine. I didnt believe it, i took a .250 within a few days i was fine. I now know what it feels like when my E2 is going high. I was doing 2x .250 ai a week, going back to that. Brought me in the range of 60.Going to try the cream and lose more weight, see if i can bring my E2 down.

 

[James]

I've always believed AI is not a bad thing, but the abuse of it is. Too many doctors who grossly overprescribe it and guys who simply don't know any better and are trusting the doctors to guide them in the right direction. For the right guy, it can be a very important part of their program.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Also, do you even agree with their rectangular hyperbolae approximation? I don't even agree with it because it necessitates a maximum value for E, whereas I've found that E just keeps increasing, to the point that some Bodybuilders (using very high dose T) start growing breasts and even lactating when their T levels get high enough. Also men on high dose T cycles often prefer letro over aromasin, which can eliminate 98% of E - if E maxed out surely E would be increasing so slowly in the super high T range that it would be pointless to use arimidex or aromasin let alone requiring letrozole?

I've tried graphing it out with different levels for A and B, and B limits E2, unless we use a very high level B that can produce lactation, but in that case for therapeutic/natural T levels, E2 rise becomes almost linear, completely unlike the graph that I've linked you too. So I currently still disagree with the y=ax/b+x approximation. I think their T range was too small which led to their approximation.
...

I think their work is solid. In Figure 2 you can see that they have some data for testosterone out to 3,000-4,000 ng/dL, which is plenty large to show the beginning of saturation. There must be saturation, and an effective maximum estradiol, unless you are going to assume the body suddenly starts manufacturing an unlimited quantity of aromatase. But there's no evidence for that.

 

[Vince Carter]

I've always believed AI is not a bad thing, but the abuse of it is. Too many doctors who grossly overprescribe it and guys who simply don't know any better and are trusting the doctors to guide them in the right direction. For the right guy, it can be a very important part of their program.

Whats lost in the static that yes it's over prescribed as a blanket inclusion as the big 3...Cyp/HCG/AI. The attitude though has over corrected to no AI, it's like the car is in a spin and this no AI crowd instead of turning in to the skid, turns the wheel the other way and flips the car.

 

[Vince Carter]

When you say under lab range do you mean under the range top number?

Yes under the max lab range in the trough

 

[James]

Whats lost in the static that yes it's over prescribed as a blanket inclusion as the big 3...Cyp/HCG/AI. The attitude though has over corrected to no AI, it's like the car is in a spin and this no AI crowd instead of turning in to the skid, turns the wheel the other way and flips the car.

With a lot of things, society will sometimes go from one extreme to the far opposite extreme. Neither is right, as few things are absolutes. Eventually, we settle in the middle.