Nandrolone - What to expect - Hb/HCT, HDL, Muscle?

[MarkLA]

Hi, looking for some "theory" here based on your experience. I'm trying to understand the effects of replacing some T in my protocol with Nandrolone vs. adding Nandrolone on top of the existing Testosterone dose.

Here goes..

1. Nandrolone drives polycythemia more than Testosterone.

a. If I am on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate and need to do a 1 pint phlebotomy every 3 months or so, how often could I expect to need to do that on 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

2. Nandrolone decreases HDL cholesterol.

a. My HDL is 50 on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate. What should I expect it to decrease to at 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

3. Nandrolone is more anabolic than Testosterone.

a. How much more muscle would I add in 6 weeks on 100mg Testosterone + 50mg Nandrolone vs. 150mg Testosterone alone? (Currently on 150mg Testosterone I maintain but don't add any noticeable mass or strength)

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

Look forward to your ideas!

 

[Jed Dorsey]

Everybody is different but for me I had to increase Nandrolone to 200 mg per week from 100 mg gradually over 5 months time to see any noticeable body recomposition from weight training. My current protocol 160 mg testosterone/200 mg Nandrolone weekly so far so good no negative sides yet

 

[madman]

Hi, looking for some "theory" here based on your experience. I'm trying to understand the effects of replacing some T in my protocol with Nandrolone vs. adding Nandrolone on top of the existing Testosterone dose.

Here goes..

1. Nandrolone drives polycythemia more than Testosterone.

a. If I am on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate and need to do a 1 pint phlebotomy every 3 months or so, how often could I expect to need to do that on 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

2. Nandrolone decreases HDL cholesterol.

a. My HDL is 50 on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate. What should I expect it to decrease to at 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

3. Nandrolone is more anabolic than Testosterone.

a. How much more muscle would I add in 6 weeks on 100mg Testosterone + 50mg Nandrolone vs. 150mg Testosterone alone? (Currently on 150mg Testosterone I maintain but don't add any noticeable mass or strength)

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?

Look forward to your ideas!

Keep in mind that on trt we are using therapeutic doses (50-100 mg/week) of ND and some may choose to run slightly higher levels.

Again the majority of men are using it for relief/improvement of joint/bone pain and adding it to their trt protocol.

The small pilot study from Lipshultz had men that were on a T-only protocol (100/200 mg/week).

The men on 100 mg/week of T were adding 50 mg/week of ND.

The men on 200 mg/week of T were adding 100 mg/week of ND.

There are also some men who struggle on T only protocols when running higher doses (100-200 mg/week) and will take the approach of lowering their T dose <100 mg/week and adding in ND at a dose of 100-150 mg/week depending on the individual.

Then you have a small minority that drops the T and follows an ND-only protocol at a dose of 100-200 mg/week.

If your main goal is to increase your muscle mass/strength then you would need to go beyond using a therapeutic dose (50-100 mg/week) of ND!

Top it all off that even when combined with a proper diet/training protocol your genetics will have the final say as to how you react to said compound.




1. Nandrolone drives polycythemia more than Testosterone.

a. If I am on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate and need to do a 1 pint phlebotomy every 3 months or so, how often could I expect to need to do that on 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?


No one can say for sure and even then keep in mind that although the use of ND can drive up RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit it will likely be minimal for most when using therapeutic doses 50-100 mg/week.

Some men may notice increased hematocrit when using therapeutic doses but it is far from common.

The dose used will have the biggest impact.




2. Nandrolone decreases HDL cholesterol.

a. My HDL is 50 on 150mg/week Testosterone Cypionate. What should I expect it to decrease to at 100mg Testosterone + 50 mg Nandrolone?

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?


Again no one can say for sure.

Although the use of exogenous T/AAS can drive down HDL it would likely be minimal when using therapeutic doses 100-200 mg T/week or 50-100mg ND/week.

High doses tend to be more prone for driving down HDL and even then I would be more concerned with the use of the 17α-alkylated orals such as stanozolol, oxandrolone, methyltestosterone, methandrostenolone, oxymetholone, and fluoxymesterone as they are notorious for driving down HDL, increasing LDL and hammering down SHBG than I would be worrying about using a therapeutic dose of T or ND.




3. Nandrolone is more anabolic than Testosterone.

a. How much more muscle would I add in 6 weeks on 100mg Testosterone + 50mg Nandrolone vs. 150mg Testosterone alone? (Currently on 150mg Testosterone I maintain but don't add any noticeable mass or strength)

b. What about 150mg Testosterone + 75mg Nandrolone?


Doubtful you would notice any significant impact on muscle mass/strength gains using a therapeutic dose of ND 50-100 mg/week.

Most likely notice improvements in body composition adding in 100 mg ND/week but even then 200 mg/week is where you would start to see the anabolic potential shine.

Keep in mind that 100-200mg T/week + 200 mg ND/week is not HRT and has no place in replacement therapy.

Even then if you choose to go that route I would not be staying on indefinitely!

 

[MarkLA]

Thanks much, gentlemen!

I'm experimenting for now. I want to live a long time so don't plan on any big and chronic doses. I'm already fit and strong and would like to add 5-10lbs (now 170lbs) more muscle if I can do it without causing harm.

Previously, I was on 140mg T only per week.

I'm currently on 98mg T per week and 56mg ND per week (I dose EOD hence 98mg not 100). I do feel like I have regained a little strength and I feel more solid. Libido which has always been poor seems to be better. I'm not sure if that's from adding the ND or dropping the T dose.

I invite more feedback and ideas. I'll play with the doses and see what the response is. My intention for now is to do this for 6 weeks and then revisit what to do longer term -- whether I want to be T only, T + low dose ND all the time or maybe just take ND intermittently.

 

[madman]

Thanks much, gentlemen!

I'm experimenting for now. I want to live a long time so don't plan on any big and chronic doses. I'm already fit and strong and would like to add 5-10lbs (now 170lbs) more muscle if I can do it without causing harm.

Previously, I was on 140mg T only per week.

I'm currently on 98mg T per week and 56mg ND per week (I dose EOD hence 98mg not 100). I do feel like I have regained a little strength and I feel more solid. Libido which has always been poor seems to be better. I'm not sure if that's from adding the ND or dropping the T dose.

I invite more feedback and ideas. I'll play with the doses and see what the response is. My intention for now is to do this for 6 weeks and then revisit what to do longer term -- whether I want to be T only, T + low dose ND all the time or maybe just take ND intermittently.

Hope you understand that when using ND it will take longer for blood levels to stabilize compared to TC/TE due to the half-life of the decanoate ester.

If your goal is to increase muscle mass then I would be giving it 12 weeks.

When getting blood work done you need to use the most accurate assays for TT (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) otherwise your results will be skewed!

I would be testing your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit at 8 and 12 weeks.

Do not make the mistake of getting bloodwork done 4 weeks after starting ND.

 

[madman]

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This is the test you want when using T + ND.

At least you can see where your trough TT/FT level truly sits!

 

[madman]

You can also use Nelson's discountedlabs.

Most likely cheaper and you can support the man we all admire!

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[Guided_by_Voices]

A lot of this depends on how much quality (animal) protein you are eating and the quality of your training. Focus on volume at near-maximal weights but not on going to failure. 5x5 or 8x3 is a good place to start. Get a protein bolus every two hours. schedule your training to allow plenty of recovery time. Focus on the big lifts. Do all that and your anabolics should be enough for healthy gains. 6 weeks is way too little time to expect major change. if you can consistently add 20lbs per year to the big lifts year in and year out, you will build plenty of muscle.

 

[MarkLA]

Hope you understand that when using ND it will take longer for blood levels to stabilize compared to TC/TE due to the half-life of the decanoate ester.

If your goal is to increase muscle mass then I would be giving it 12 weeks.

When getting blood work done you need to use the most accurate assays for TT (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) otherwise your results will be skewed!

I would be testing your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit at 8 and 12 weeks.

Do not make the mistake of getting bloodwork done 4 weeks after starting ND.

I had read that HL of T-Cypionate is ~ 6 days and HL of ND is ~ 7 days. Is that right?

I took a larger initial dose and used the roid calc website to calculate dosages so that I could get to steady state sooner. I used this to get the ND level up and the T level down a bit more quickly than just taking steady doses for 6 weeks.

On the TT/FT testing.. Does that pick up the NDor just the T? What am I looking for in the test results? When I am on T only, I do get testing to keep it about 1000 at trough. Since I see the ND as probably temporary, I wasn't planning on spending much effort titrating but maybe I am missing something here too?

A lot of this depends on how much quality (animal) protein you are eating and the quality of your training. Focus on volume at near-maximal weights but not on going to failure. 5x5 or 8x3 is a good place to start. Get a protein bolus every two hours. schedule your training to allow plenty of recovery time. Focus on the big lifts. Do all that and your anabolics should be enough for healthy gains. 6 weeks is way too little time to expect major change. if you can consistently add 20lbs per year to the big lifts year in and year out, you will build plenty of muscle.

Thank you, that's interesting. So lift heavy but not to failure. Usually I lift pretty heavy and use drop sets when I get to failure. i.e. Chest press with 80lb dumbbells then 50lb dumbbells then 20lbs. You're saying to take those 80's and do my 10 reps and then stop even if I could force out #11?

It's funny, I met a guy who was a former pro and he told me that he never used to lift dumbbells larger than 40lbs, but he was on a big stack of drugs when he was pro.

You're also saying that the small ND dose added to my T should produce gains if I eat and train right? i.e. 100mg or 200mg of ND isn't needed?

 

[madman]

I had read that HL of T-Cypionate is ~ 6 days and HL of ND is ~ 7 days. Is that right?

I took a larger initial dose and used the roid calc website to calculate dosages so that I could get to steady state sooner. I used this to get the ND level up and the T level down a bit more quickly than just taking steady doses for 6 weeks.

On the TT/FT testing.. Does that pick up the NDor just the T? What am I looking for in the test results? When I am on T only, I do get testing to keep it about 1000 at trough. Since I see the ND as probably temporary, I wasn't planning on spending much effort titrating but maybe I am missing something here too?



Thank you, that's interesting. So lift heavy but not to failure. Usually I lift pretty heavy and use drop sets when I get to failure. i.e. Chest press with 80lb dumbbells then 50lb dumbbells then 20lbs. You're saying to take those 80's and do my 10 reps and then stop even if I could force out #11?

It's funny, I met a guy who was a former pro and he told me that he never used to lift dumbbells larger than 40lbs, but he was on a big stack of drugs when he was pro.

You're also saying that the small ND dose added to my T should produce gains if I eat and train right? i.e. 100mg or 200mg of ND isn't needed?

Regarding cypionate vs enanthate.

post #2

Testosterone Enanthate and Testosterone Cypionate Half-Lives - Data?

www.excelmale.com

NDs half-life roughly 6-7 days.

Again the gains in muscle size/strength would be minimal when using <100mg/week let alone you are not going to notice a significant difference using 100 mg/week.

If anything 200 mg/week is where you would see the anabolic potential shine.

ND is considered one of the milder AAS when it comes to sides.

If your goal is to add some size and you plan on a short-term stint (12 weeks) then I would jump on 200 mg/week to maximize the returns.

Only time will tell as to what degree such dose drives up your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit and even then it will be temporary.

Can even give 150 mg/week a go if you feel more comfortable.

Forget the mumbo jumbo about needing protein every 2 hrs.

As long as you are meeting your daily protein requirements 1 gram protein/lb of LBM spread evenly throughout the day and you are taking in enough calories (carbs/fats) then you should be good to go.

If increased mass/strength gains are your goal then consuming complex carbs is critical especially if you are naturally lean or have a hard time putting on weight.

Forget the keto/carnivore unless you have poor insulin sensitivity and carry a lot of body fat/put on weight easily. Regardless of your body type, it is much easier to pack on quality mass when consuming complex carbs.

Muscle will always be bigger, fuller, and harder when glycogen stores are topped up!

Strength/recovery is also better.

Androgen Physiology, Pharmacology, Use and Misuse - Endotext - NCBI Bookshelf

Injectable Testosterone​

The most widely used testosterone formulation for many decades has been intramuscular injection of testosterone esters (figure 5), formed by 17β-esterification of testosterone with fatty acids of various aliphatic and/or aromatic chain lengths, injected in a vegetable oil vehicle (653). This depot product relies on retarded release of the testosterone ester from the oil vehicle injection depot because esters undergo rapid hydrolysis by ubiquitous esterases to liberate free testosterone into the circulation. The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of androgen esters is therefore primarily determined by ester side-chain length, volume of oil vehicle, and site of injection via hydrophobic physicochemical partitioning of the androgen ester between the hydrophobic oil vehicle and the aqueous extracellular fluid (654).

The short 3-carbon aliphatic ester side-chain of testosterone propionate gives the product a brief duration of action requiring injections of 25 to 50 mg at 1-2 day intervals for effective testosterone replacement therapy. In contrast, the 7-carbon side-chain of testosterone enanthate has a longer duration of action so that it is used at doses of 200 to 250 mg per 10 to 14 days for androgen replacement therapy in hypogonadal men (655-657) and has been for decades the most widely used form of testosterone used in replacement therapy. Other testosterone esters (cypionate, cyclohexane carboxylate) have simillar pharmacokinetics making them pharmacologically equivalent to testosterone enanthate (658). Similarly, mixtures of short- and longer acting testosterone esters also have essentially the same pharmacokinetics of the longest ester.

​

TESTOSTERONE ESTERS

FIGURE 5.​

Schematic overview of the pharmacology of testosterone esters. Testosterone is esterified through the 17 β hydroxyl group with fatty acid esters of different aliphatic or other chain length which is a biologically inactive pro-drug. The esterified testosterone in an oil vehicle is injected deeply into a muscle forming a local drug depot from which the testosterone ester is released at a slow rate determined by its physico-chemical partitioning according to the testosterone ester’s hydrophobicity. Once the testosterone ester exits the depot and enters the extracellular fluids, it is rapidly hydrolyzed by ubiquitous non-specific esterases thereby releasing the testosterone into the general circulation.




*The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of androgen esters are therefore primarily determined by ester side-chain length, the volume of oil vehicle, and site of injection via hydrophobic physicochemical partitioning of the androgen ester between the hydrophobic oil vehicle and the aqueous extracellular fluid (654).


*7-carbon aliphatic ester side-chain (TE)

*8-carbon aliphatic ester side-chain (TC)

*10-carbon aliphatic ester side-chain (ND)

 

[MarkLA]

Thanks, couple more questions:

1. I know that to maintain sexual function, I have to take TC with ND. I think this is so that there is still DHT and E2 in the body. I read that you need between 2:1 and 1:1 TC:ND and I'm wondering if this is true and why?

i.e. If someone needs 100mg/week of TC monotherapy and that produces enough direct and E2 and DHT to maintain sexual function, why would it matter if they took 50mg or 500mg of ND?

2. On higher doses of TC (closer to 200mg/week), I would feel more easily frustrated, so I took a little smaller dose. By adding ND is are there any common mood effects?

Thanks!