Nandrolone Experiences

[S1W]

Still yet to discover whether stopping deca will leave me back to square one on joints or whether they actually repair.

I'd be interested in hearing about this. Although I read on another forum (which is more bodybuilding oriented) that lots of guys say it doesn't "heal" anything and that the relief you get only lasts as long as you're using it.

 

[DS3]

How does nandrolone affect your TRT labs? It took me so long to get everything balanced out, I’m cautious about asking about nandrolone. However, I’m on month one of Accutane, I already feel my joints drying out. How would 200mg of nandrolone affect all of my TRT labs?

You will likely see a Small decrease in estrogen and prolactin when adding to testosterone. You will also likely see a significant drop in TT but not much change in free T. @Gman86 and I have discussed this quite a bit; he just fails to mention to drop in TT some of the time lol.

 

[eyeheartny]

You will also likely see a significant drop in TT but not much change in free T. @Gman86 and I have discussed this quite a bit; he just fails to mention to drop in TT some of the time lol.

Is this drop when replacing T with nandrolone or running it alongside? Can you clarify the mechanism by which TT drops on labs when running nandrolone? Quite curious what you’re referring to here.

 

[SilverSurfer]

I have now been off Deca for 5 weeks. Joint pain has not returned. I continued to add muscle weight for 3 weeks after my last injection. Have been hardening and toning the muscle mass I added.

 

[gaz7718]

I guess one might expect no adverse affects in the first few weeks due to the long half life but 5 weeks is encouraging.
remind me why you stopped altogether as opposed to just reducing dose to say 100 or 50mg per week?

 

[SilverSurfer]

I guess one might expect no adverse affects in the first few weeks due to the long half life but 5 weeks is encouraging.
remind me why you stopped altogether as opposed to just reducing dose to say 100 or 50mg per week?

I wanted to see if my joint pain went away for a period of time without taking anything. If my pain flares back up I’ll likely add back in a low dose of 50 mg or 75 mg Deca per week. (On 150 mg T, so that would be a 3:1 or 2:1 dose.)

As a recovering opioid addict, I try to take as little medication as possible.

 

[DS3]

Is this drop when replacing T with nandrolone or running it alongside? Can you clarify the mechanism by which TT drops on labs when running nandrolone? Quite curious what you’re referring to here.

Alongside TRT; no intelligent person takes nandrolone alone.

It is unlikely that anyone on this forum will be able to provide a research example of why this reduction in TT occurs, aside from posting the relative binding affinities of Test and Nandrolone. Competitive binding at the androgen receptor is what I ‘believe’ to be the mechanism. I’ve seen this reduction in labs when I have taken nandrolone alongside TRT. Nandrolone has a much higher binding affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone.

@Jason Sypolt had previously discussed the same effect on TT when he was taking oxandrolone. However, not much change occurred with his free T.

 

[Vince]

Alongside TRT; no intelligent person takes nandrolone alone.

It is unlikely that anyone on this forum will be able to provide a research example of why this reduction in TT occurs, aside from posting the relative binding affinities of Test and Nandrolone. Competitive binding at the androgen receptor is what I ‘believe’ to be the mechanism. I’ve seen this reduction in labs when I have taken nandrolone alongside TRT. Nandrolone has a much higher binding affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone.

@Jason Sypolt had previously discussed the same effect on TT when he was taking oxandrolone. However, not much change occurred with his free T.

Can you post your Labs with and without Nandrolone. It would be interesting to see the difference, especially in estrogen and DHT.

Along with both protocols.

 

[S1W]

You will likely see a Small decrease in estrogen and prolactin when adding to testosterone.

Is that right? I mostly hear that nandralone will increase E2 and prolactin when added to TRT.

 

[DS3]

Is that right? I mostly hear that nandralone will increase E2 and prolactin when added to TRT.

Evidence from real world blood analysis don’t actually support that notion. One ‘hears’ a lot of things from bro’s and steroid abusers without much supporting evidence.

 

[Gman86]

You will likely see a Small decrease in estrogen and prolactin when adding to testosterone. You will also likely see a significant drop in TT but not much change in free T. @Gman86 and I have discussed this quite a bit; he just fails to mention to drop in TT some of the time lol.

Hahah. I definitely remember u and ur labs lol. But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?

Because most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together

 

[Gman86]

Alongside TRT; no intelligent person takes nandrolone alone.

It is unlikely that anyone on this forum will be able to provide a research example of why this reduction in TT occurs, aside from posting the relative binding affinities of Test and Nandrolone. Competitive binding at the androgen receptor is what I ‘believe’ to be the mechanism. I’ve seen this reduction in labs when I have taken nandrolone alongside TRT. Nandrolone has a much higher binding affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone.

@Jason Sypolt had previously discussed the same effect on TT when he was taking oxandrolone. However, not much change occurred with his free T.

Why would competitive binding at the androgen receptor matter with total T? Isn’t total T just the amount of testosterone in your blood? The androgen receptor carries out the effects of testosterone and nandrolone. I’m not seeing how androgen receptor affinity or competitive binding would effect total serum levels.

 

[Gman86]

Is that right? I mostly hear that nandralone will increase E2 and prolactin when added to TRT.

Nandrolone converts very very little into E2 and prolactin. So theoretically, if testosterone dose stayed the same, and low dose nandrolone was added, I would imagine you would see a slight increase in both E2 and prolactin. But if test dose was decreased, and nandrolone was added in at a low dose, I would imagine that u would see a net decrease in E2 and prolactin.

 

[DS3]

Hahah. I definitely remember u and ur labs lol. But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?

Because most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together

Hahah. I definitely remember u and ur labs lol. But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?

Because most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together

All great questions. I will answer each separately.

1. "But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?"

I used a pretest-posttest research method to determine the effects of nandrolone on blood assays, so tightly controlled variables changed between the pretest protocol and intervention protocol.

Pretest Protocol: 0.3 cc test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week). 0.25 mg anastrozole 1x per week, no HCG.

Pretest Assays:
TT- 1304 ng/dL
SHBG: 25.5 nmol/:
Free T (Calc): 378.4 pg/mL
E2: 28.3 pg/mL (0.25 mg Adex taken the day before this test)(without an AI my E2 would top at ~60 pg/mL).
Prolactin: 10.4 ng/mL

Intervention Protocol: 0.3 cc Test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week), 100 mg nandrolone per week from Empower (weekly dosage split into EOD injections), and the addition of ~250 units HCG 2x per week. No AI. The HCG was the only 'wild card' put in the intervention protocol that wasn't in the Pretest Protocol (this should only add to my TT, not take away).

Posttest Assays:
TT: 531 ng/dL
Prolactin: 9 ng/mL
E2: 40 pg/dL (remember, no AI use was in the intervention protocol)
SHBG: Doctor didn't order
Free T: Doctor didn't order

These test results are obviously not confidently generalizable without further evidence from other nandrolone users in clinical settings given that these results are based on one person. However, the testing, controlling of variables (such as timing of injections, the timing of testing, type of assays utilized, and hormones used) were very well controlled.

2. "most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together"

The methodology of these assays were clearly different than mine that were conducted through Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (ordered by Dr. Lipshultz at the Baylor College of Medicine). For Total Testosterone, they use the Roche COBAS electrochemiluminescent immunoassay (ECLIA) methodology. The same methodology and lab was used in both the pretest and posttest.

3. "Why would competitive binding at the androgen receptor matter with total T? Isn’t total T just the amount of testosterone in your blood?"

I can't confidently answer this question. Blood assays in those in clinical treatment appear to support a reduction in TT with the addition of other anabolics (e.g. nandrolone, oxandrolone). Why this event happens, I cannot confidently say, nor can anyone else confidently give an answer to this. (Other than speculation of assay methodology).

4. "Nandrolone converts very very little into E2 and prolactin. So theoretically, if testosterone dose stayed the same, and low dose nandrolone was added, I would imagine you would see a slight increase in both E2 and prolactin. But if test dose was decreased, and nandrolone was added in at a low dose, I would imagine that u would see a net decrease in E2 and prolactin."

Indeed. However, from a non-theoretical standpoint, real-world clinical use and the aforementioned pretest-posttest research design used to determine the effect on blood assays, this is not what happens.

Competitive-binding at the androgen receptor would dictate that the hormone with the stronger binding affinity for the AR would express its effects to a greater degree than the hormone with lower binding affinity; in this case, nandrolone expression would be greater than testosterone expression given their relative binding affinities. So with nandrolone's progestonic and estrogenic effects being lower than that of testosterone, even from a theoretical standpoint, it would make sense that adding nandrolone to Testosterone without decreasing the T dosage would result in lower E2 and prolactin.

 

[DS3]

Can you post your Labs with and without Nandrolone. It would be interesting to see the difference, especially in estrogen and DHT.

Along with both protocols.

Thanks for the question, Vince. I am just going to copy and paste what I've posted above.

I used a pretest-posttest research method to determine the effects of nandrolone on blood assays, so tightly controlled variables changed between the pretest protocol and intervention protocol.

Pretest Protocol: 0.3 cc test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week). 0.25 mg anastrozole 1x per week, no HCG.

Pretest Assays:
TT- 1304 ng/dL
SHBG: 25.5 nmol/:
Free T (Calc): 378.4 pg/mL
E2: 28.3 pg/mL (0.25 mg Adex taken the day before this test)
Prolactin: 10.4 ng/mL

Intervention Protocol: 0.3 cc Test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week), 100 mg nandrolone per week from Empower (weekly dosage split into EOD injections), and the addition of ~250 units HCG 2x per week. No AI. The HCG was the only 'wild card' put in the intervention protocol that wasn't in the Pretest Protocol (this should only add to my TT, not take away).

Posttest Assays:
TT: 531 ng/dL
Prolactin: 9 ng/mL
E2: 40 pg/dL (remember, no AI use was in the intervention protocol)
SHBG: Doctor didn't order
Free T: Doctor didn't order

 

[Vince]

Thanks for the question, Vince. I am just going to copy and paste what I've posted above.

I used a pretest-posttest research method to determine the effects of nandrolone on blood assays, so tightly controlled variables changed between the pretest protocol and intervention protocol.

Pretest Protocol: 0.3 cc test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week). 0.25 mg anastrozole 1x per week, no HCG.

Pretest Assays:
TT- 1304 ng/dL
SHBG: 25.5 nmol/:
Free T (Calc): 378.4 pg/mL
E2: 28.3 pg/mL (0.25 mg Adex taken the day before this test)
Prolactin: 10.4 ng/mL

Intervention Protocol: 0.3 cc Test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week), 100 mg nandrolone per week from Empower (weekly dosage split into EOD injections), and the addition of ~250 units HCG 2x per week. No AI. The HCG was the only 'wild card' put in the intervention protocol that wasn't in the Pretest Protocol (this should only add to my TT, not take away).

Posttest Assays:
TT: 531 ng/dL
Prolactin: 9 ng/mL
E2: 40 pg/dL (remember, no AI use was in the intervention protocol)
SHBG: Doctor didn't order
Free T: Doctor didn't order

Thanks for posting. It would be interesting to see others labs, when adding in Nandrolone.

 

[Gman86]

All great questions. I will answer each separately.

1. "But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?"

I used a pretest-posttest research method to determine the effects of nandrolone on blood assays, so tightly controlled variables changed between the pretest protocol and intervention protocol.

Pretest Protocol: 0.3 cc test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week). 0.25 mg anastrozole 1x per week, no HCG.

Pretest Assays:
TT- 1304 ng/dL
SHBG: 25.5 nmol/:
Free T (Calc): 378.4 pg/mL
E2: 28.3 pg/mL (0.25 mg Adex taken the day before this test)(without an AI my E2 would top at ~60 pg/mL).
Prolactin: 10.4 ng/mL

Intervention Protocol: 0.3 cc Test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week), 100 mg nandrolone per week from Empower (weekly dosage split into EOD injections), and the addition of ~250 units HCG 2x per week. No AI. The HCG was the only 'wild card' put in the intervention protocol that wasn't in the Pretest Protocol (this should only add to my TT, not take away).

Posttest Assays:
TT: 531 ng/dL
Prolactin: 9 ng/mL
E2: 40 pg/dL (remember, no AI use was in the intervention protocol)
SHBG: Doctor didn't order
Free T: Doctor didn't order

These test results are obviously not confidently generalizable without further evidence from other nandrolone users in clinical settings given that these results are based on one person. However, the testing, controlling of variables (such as timing of injections, the timing of testing, type of assays utilized, and hormones used) were very well controlled.

2. "most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together"

The methodology of these assays were clearly different than mine that were conducted through Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (ordered by Dr. Lipshultz at the Baylor College of Medicine). For Total Testosterone, they use the Roche COBAS electrochemiluminescent immunoassay (ECLIA) methodology. The same methodology and lab was used in both the pretest and posttest.

3. "Why would competitive binding at the androgen receptor matter with total T? Isn’t total T just the amount of testosterone in your blood?"

I can't confidently answer this question. Blood assays in those in clinical treatment appear to support a reduction in TT with the addition of other anabolics (e.g. nandrolone, oxandrolone). Why this event happens, I cannot confidently say, nor can anyone else confidently give an answer to this. (Other than speculation of assay methodology).

4. "Nandrolone converts very very little into E2 and prolactin. So theoretically, if testosterone dose stayed the same, and low dose nandrolone was added, I would imagine you would see a slight increase in both E2 and prolactin. But if test dose was decreased, and nandrolone was added in at a low dose, I would imagine that u would see a net decrease in E2 and prolactin."

Indeed. However, from a non-theoretical standpoint, real-world clinical use and the aforementioned pretest-posttest research design used to determine the effect on blood assays, this is not what happens.

Competitive-binding at the androgen receptor would dictate that the hormone with the stronger binding affinity for the AR would express its effects to a greater degree than the hormone with lower binding affinity; in this case, nandrolone expression would be greater than testosterone expression given their relative binding affinities. So with nandrolone's progestonic and estrogenic effects being lower than that of testosterone, even from a theoretical standpoint, it would make sense that adding nandrolone to Testosterone without decreasing the T dosage would result in lower E2 and prolactin.

Man I would of loved to see how where ur free T and SHBG levels were with the added nandrolone. But I agree with Vince, I definitely am very interested to see others labs while adding nandrolone to their protocols

 

[DS3]

Man I would of loved to see how where ur free T and SHBG levels were with the added nandrolone. But I agree with Vince, I definitely am very interested to see others labs while adding nandrolone to their protocols

I would have too and it is a shame that they were not measured. Maybe we should start another thread asking those who has used nandrolone to post their assays before and after.

 

[Gman86]

I would have too and it is a shame that they were not measured. Maybe we should start another thread asking those who has used nandrolone to post their assays before and after.

Not a bad idea at all. I think there’s a decent amount of guys using nandrolone nowadays on here. Just not sure how many are getting follow up labs

 

[DS3]

Not a bad idea at all. I think there’s a decent amount of guys using nandrolone nowadays on here. Just not sure how many are getting follow up labs

What's funny is when I asked Dr. Lipshultz about my concern in the dramatic drop in TT, he gave a generic response saying that, "As long as my patients are reaching their quality of life goals, then I am not too concerned with it."

Love Dr. Lipshultz, but it is aggravating that even the experts don't have the answers.