Nandrolone Experiences

[Appassionato]

As far as half-life, I am not exactly sure what the precise half-life is given that it isn't stated anywhere in the literature (that I can find). However, figure 2 represents the mean plasma TT profiles of particapints of the Jatenzo trials.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2019/206089s000lbl.pdf

View attachment 9186

Interesting. From this graph, it seems it would be better to take it with meals, every 8 hours.

 

[DS3]

Interesting. From this graph, it seems it would be better to take it with meals, every 8 hours.

Indeed. And specifically, it demonstrates that fatty meals increase in bioavailability.

 

[Cataceous]

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Think of it like this. If at 50 mgs of Prop per day I spike at 1400 ng/dL (speculative) and after 10 hours drop to 1178 ng/dL (previously shown), likely dropping somewhere at or below 800 ng/dL at 24 hours, then it can be logically inferred that 14/24 hours of the day (58.3% of the time) I am within range of TT levels that TRT patients aim to achieve. And if I were to drop my dosage, my spike and trough would be lower, which would not be desirable.
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Accepting that you do see remarkably low total testosterone relative to dose, and the implication that your metabolic clearance rate is very high, then a further likelihood is that your hormonal swings are larger than what you're guessing.

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You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am seeking validation ...

Rather, my hope is to dissuade others from similarly jumping to extraordinary conclusions based on uncontrolled and often subjective evaluations, which also conflict with existing research. This is the sure path to a metaphorical dark ages, in which little new knowledge is gained.

"I've seen no credible scientific evidence for big differences in how different esters are metabolized."

You've also failed to present scientific evidence that states esters are metabolized in the same manner. So until you do, this is no more consequential than mere SPECULATION.
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Here's a tidbit for you. If you want to learn more then Google is your friend:

As all testosterone esters, testosterone propionate is rapidly hydrolysed into free testosterone in plasma.[1]​

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"Your body can't tell whether it came from your testicles or from an injection."

You seem to be using INTUITION on this one, chief.
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You must be a big fan of homeopathy, chief: Water has memory, so testosterone must also, right? Once again, extraordinary claim, burden of proof on you.

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"Is this speculation that preservatives and esters mysteriously affect things? How? Is there evidence?"

Do you have evidence to support the notion that preservatives and esters don't affect things?

Ever heard that you can't prove a negative? In this case the claim is also ridiculously vague. Tell me specifically what problems you think they're causing along with some plausible mechanisms.

 

[Cataceous]

... We assume there is a difference because we can't prove there is not and we treat with different (higher) amounts of androgens

Got it. We assume Russell's teapot exists because we can't disprove it.

 

[DS3]

Accepting that you do see remarkably low total testosterone relative to dose, and the implication that your metabolic clearance rate is very high, then a further likelihood is that your hormonal swings are larger than what you're guessing.


Rather, my hope is to dissuade others from similarly jumping to extraordinary conclusions based on uncontrolled and often subjective evaluations, which also conflict with existing research. This is the sure path to a metaphorical dark ages, in which little new knowledge is gained.


Here's a tidbit for you. If you want to learn more then Google is your friend:

As all testosterone esters, testosterone propionate is rapidly hydrolysed into free testosterone in plasma.[1]​

You must be a big fan of homeopathy, chief: Water has memory, so testosterone must also, right? Once again, extraordinary claim, burden of proof on you.


Ever heard that you can't prove a negative? In this case the claim is also ridiculously vague. Tell me specifically what problems you think they're causing along with some plausible mechanisms.

"Rather, my hope is to dissuade others from similarly jumping to extraordinary conclusions based on uncontrolled and often subjective evaluations, which also conflict with existing research. This is the sure path to a metaphorical dark ages, in which little new knowledge is gained."

My conclusions are based on my decade's worth of experience taking Testosterone, 7 of which have been under doctor supervision at the Baylor College of Medicine. Perhaps there are flaws in the existing research. Every time I have changed from long-ester to short, most negative symptoms (with the most bothersome being the GI pain) diminish. When I switch back to long-esters, the negative symptoms present themselves. I have tried this time and again over the last decade. And again, I have quantifiable evidence that validates there are differences in how I respond to Prop versus Cyp (even at a much higher dosage). Perhaps you should be a little more open to considering new evidence, lest you fall victim to limited knowledge acquisition remnant of the dark ages.

"Here's a tidbit for you. If you want to learn more then Google is your friend:

As all testosterone esters, testosterone propionate is rapidly hydrolysed into free testosterone in plasma.[1]"​

Thanks for the resource. Just so we are clear, DrugBank is citing a study that solely assesses the pharmacokinetics of Testosterone Propionate without comparison to other esters. The assertion is, in fact, not supported by the study they are citing. Pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone propionate in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

"You must be a big fan of homeopathy, chief: Water has memory, so testosterone must also, right? Once again, extraordinary claim, burden of proof on you."

No sir. If you assert that the body doesn't know the difference between endogenous T and exogenous T, you must provide evidence of that claim or chalk it up to the speculation that it is. Remember: Russell's teapot.

"Ever heard that you can't prove a negative? In this case the claim is also ridiculously vague. Tell me specifically what problems you think they're causing along with some plausible mechanisms."

Lol. Hey man, if you are going to call someone out and say that it is mere speculation that preservatives and esters don't affect drugs, then simply turning it around on me for calling you out and saying that the burden is on me furthers my speculation that you don't have evidence backing up your statement. I'm totally cool with saying that my statement is, in fact, speculation that preservatives and esters 'may' affect the way a drug works in someone's body (depending on liver enzyme function, etc.). If you are going to assert that this is incorrect then you need to provide evidence, or just own up to your statement being speculation.

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[Rock H. Johnson]

I had an interesting reaction switching from cypionate to enanthate. I'm not sure what, if any, difference there is in my blood levels, but my cardio endurance is significantly reduced while on cypionate, and returned within two or three weeks after switching to enanthate. I can't point to any scientific evidence and frankly couldn't care less- if it's psychosomatic, that's fine, too. I feel significantly better.

I have read on other fora people experiencing something similar relating to NO/pump Vs ester.

 

[Cataceous]

...
And again, I have quantifiable evidence that validates there are differences in how I respond to Prop versus Cyp (even at a much higher dosage). Perhaps you should be a little more open to considering new evidence, lest you fall victim to limited knowledge acquisition remnant of the dark ages.

Quantifiable proof consists of continuous sampling of plasma levels for some days post-injection. It's clear you don't have this. Do you have any injection cycles in which you took multiple measurements?

Why are you so certain that your subjective results are not the product of the different release rates of testosterone by the different esters?

...
"...

As all testosterone esters, testosterone propionate is rapidly hydrolysed into free testosterone in plasma.[1]"​

Thanks for the resource. Just so we are clear, DrugBank is citing a study that solely assesses the pharmacokinetics of Testosterone Propionate without comparison to other esters. The assertion is, in fact, not supported by the study they are citing. Pharmacokinetic properties of testosterone propionate in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

Fair enough. Let's back up on this one. Where are you asserting the differences between esters arise? Are you saying that the whole esters are creating these effects before the testosterone is cleaved?

...
No sir. If you assert that the body doesn't know the difference between endogenous T and exogenous T, you must provide evidence of that claim or chalk it up to the speculation that it is. Remember: Russell's teapot.

No, the teapot is analogous to saying there's some mysterious difference in the testosterone molecules that decades of testing have been unable to uncover.

But this does lead to an interesting tangent: Doping tests can discern when exogenous testosterone is in use. The primary means is through the ratio of epitestosterone to testosterone. What happens to epitestosterone production in TRT? Is it fully suppressed? Does it have importance that we should know about?

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Lol. Hey man, if you are going to call someone out and say that it is mere speculation that preservatives and esters don't affect drugs ....

Straw man. I'm looking for the specific claims about how additives and esters might affect testosterone. These must be consistent with the decades of testing that have uncovered no effects except on rate of release.

 

[duffer]

New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

@eyeheartny Also had problems with significantly elevated heart rate when he began his nandrolone therapy. Last I heard from him he felt symptom relief after discontinuing nandrolone. See the posted thread.

Thanks, @Gman86,

My heart rate elevation is relatively minor, and I'm rethinking how much of it is likely due to Nandrolone. I know from experience that alcohol, eating too much before bedtime, and overtraining will all result in a noticeable change in my sleeping heart rate. I'll try to deload a bit and see if my heart rate settles down at night.

The fluid retention seems to have subsided a bit and my weight has stopped fluctuating quite so wildly. I'm still up a few pounds from where I would have thought I should be, but I think I've gained some lean mass! While not reflected in my BIA devices, I noticed doing my last HCG injection in the stomach, my skin-fold pinch seemed thinner..

So, for now I think I'll hold course and see what happens. I'll post any significant updates.

 

[eyeheartny]

New Protocol, Elevated RHR/Poor Sleep/Eye Floaters. Abort or Stay the Course?

@eyeheartny Also had problems with significantly elevated heart rate when he began his nandrolone therapy. Last I heard from him he felt symptom relief after discontinuing nandrolone. See the posted thread.

Thanks @DS3 for mentioning my experience. I'm 5 weeks out from discontinuing nandrolone and still have not gotten back to normal. I also had sudden issues with my vision (eye floaters, etc) that began with nandrolone. They have gotten slightly better but not abated fully. In terms of heart rate and sleep, things looked better about two weeks after discontinuing nandrolone and about 3-5 days after using 0.1mg anastrozole EOD. I discontinued the anastrozole but may go back on due to the return of some symptoms and a sudden decline in sleep quality. I mention all this because nandrolone has noticeably higher binding affinity at both the mineralocorticoid receptor and at the progesterone receptor compared with testosterone. This makes me think that my symptoms may have been due to this agonist activity at these receptors.

 

[DS3]

Quantifiable proof consists of continuous sampling of plasma levels for some days post-injection. It's clear you don't have this. Do you have any injection cycles in which you took multiple measurements?

Why are you so certain that your subjective results are not the product of the different release rates of testosterone by the different esters?


Fair enough. Let's back up on this one. Where are you asserting the differences between esters arise? Are you saying that the whole esters are creating these effects before the testosterone is cleaved?


No, the teapot is analogous to saying there's some mysterious difference in the testosterone molecules that decades of testing have been unable to uncover.

But this does lead to an interesting tangent: Doping tests can discern when exogenous testosterone is in use. The primary means is through the ratio of epitestosterone to testosterone. What happens to epitestosterone production in TRT? Is it fully suppressed? Does it have importance that we should know about?


Straw man. I'm looking for the specific claims about how additives and esters might affect testosterone. These must be consistent with the decades of testing that have uncovered no effects except on rate of release.

"Why are you so certain that your subjective results are not the product of the different release rates of testosterone by the different esters?"

I am not certain of this. My standpoint has been that subjective and objective differences appear to exist in how I respond to Cyp/Enanthate versus Propionate. The side effects that I experience are quantifiable simply by referring to my scale rating I keep on a daily basis for the past few years. I track this every day so I can literally look back at this data and gain an average for any protocol I have run over the last 3 years.

In terms of blood assays, perhaps my TT does indeed spike to 1800 ng/dL after a 75 mg shot of Prop and by the time I test it at 10 hours post shot it's at 1178 ng/dL (verified). So, it is possible that I may have mistaken the amount of TT I get from Propionate versus a lower dosage of Cyp/Enan. Perhaps the symptom relief from taking Propionate versus Cyp/Enan doesn't have anything to do with an inherent flaw with the way my body metabolizes long esters. Rather, perhaps it is the release rates of longer esters that create the aforementioned side effects that I do not experience with Propionate. I am not saying that this in indeed true, but it may be.

If this were true, that does not detract from the fact that this serves as a message that a patient on TRT may indeed experience varying side effects using longer or shorter esters- perhaps based on release rates of testosterone by different esters. These side effects leading to varying rates in therapeutic success among TRT patients.

Pharmacokinetics of cypionate and enanthate
Pharmacology of testosterone replacement therapy preparations

Pharmacokinetics of propionate
Fig. 14.5 Multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate...

Pharmacokinetics of cypionate and enanthate
Fig. 14.8 Comparative pharmacokinetics of 194 mg of testosterone...

Pharmacokinetic profile comparison of Testoviron Depot, Test Enanthate, and Test Propionate
Fig. 14.9 Pharmacokinetic profile of Testoviron R Depot 100 (110 mg...

 

[Nomad]

How does nandrolone affect your TRT labs? It took me so long to get everything balanced out, I’m cautious about asking about nandrolone. However, I’m on month one of Accutane, I already feel my joints drying out. How would 200mg of nandrolone affect all of my TRT labs?

 

[Gman86]

How does nandrolone affect your TRT labs? It took me so long to get everything balanced out, I’m cautious about asking about nandrolone. However, I’m on month one of Accutane, I already feel my joints drying out. How would 200mg of nandrolone affect all of my TRT labs?

Why 200mg? That’s a very high dose to add onto ur current HRT protocol. When adding onto an HRT protocol, 50-100mg is recommended. Most guys find benefits with 50-75mg/ week.

Nandrolone doesn’t convert much into E2, and doesn’t convert much into prolactin, so those values shouldn’t go up that much. Nandrolone is a different molecule than testosterone, so if you get the sensitive total T test, it shouldn’t add anything to your total T. If you get the standard non sensitive total T test, it’s going to add the testosterone and nandrolone in ur system together. The standard test isn’t sensitive to differentiate between test and nandrolone. Free T will definitely go up. By how much, not sure. Nandrolone also lowers SHBG, from my understanding. So I would also expect SHBG to go down a bit.

 

[Nomad]

Why 200mg? That’s a very high dose to add onto ur current HRT protocol. When adding onto an HRT protocol, 50-100mg is recommended. Most guys find benefits with 50-75mg/ week.

Nandrolone doesn’t convert much into E2, and doesn’t convert much into prolactin, so those values shouldn’t go up that much. Nandrolone is a different molecule than testosterone, so if you get the sensitive total T test, it shouldn’t add anything to your total T. If you get the standard non sensitive total T test, it’s going to add the testosterone and nandrolone in ur system together. The standard test isn’t sensitive to differentiate between test and nandrolone. Free T will definitely go up. By how much, not sure. Nandrolone also lowers SHBG, from my understanding. So I would also expect SHBG to go down a bit.

I was just throwing 200 out there for simplicity because that’s what my testosterone is at. I had no idea nandrolone can be so effective at 50-100mg weekly.

 

[Gman86]

I was just throwing 200 out there for simplicity because that’s what my testosterone is at. I had no idea nandrolone can be so effective at 50-100mg weekly.

Oh ya, I’ve heard many guys get joint relief/ pain relief benefits from as little as 50mg/ week. Check out this video if you haven’t already. I’ve watched it probably 7 times. Feel like I pick up in something new every time I watch it.

 

[Sly]

I hope 50-100 gives results. I’m on 60 per week, two weeks in and nothing yet. I do realize that it could take 4-6 weeks to start seeing anything though. I’ve just been dealing with severe arthritis for so long that I’m anxious.

 

[Tman]

I run nandrolone just at 80mg per week and I feel 10/15 years younger. I used to get out of bed in the morning and literally limp to the bathroom with a hunched sore back (after 30 odd years in the military). I now leap out of bed literally breakdancing to the bathroom. I just feel so much better. Lipids have risen slightly but I don't believe the shite big pharma churn out anyway reference high cholestorol and decreased longevity so I'm more than happy. Best thing I've done and if I die a few years earlier due to the nandrolone I don't mind. You don't regret anything once you're dead. Better than spending the next few decades feeling like a cripple.

I hope I have similar results. The doctor just added that to my regiment. I'm a retired infantry guy...it is not what hurts each day, but what hurts the most.

 

[poweller]

Hey everyone. I wanted to get input on what people's experiences with nandrolone have been, whether prescribed in low doses for joint pain, cachexia or just simply wanting to put on size. I have been prescribed nandrolone for the past year for joint pain through the Baylor College of Medicine, which I have taken on and off at 50-100 mg per week.

What has everyone who has taken nandrolone experienced while taken it, both in terms of physical effects and mental effects? I have experienced depression, lethargy, short-term memory issues, joint pain relief, increased hunger, decreased libido, increased workout recovery, and potential estrogen management relief.

Here are some studies (animal models) discussing nandrolone's effect on neurotransmitters, and in particular, dopamine, and its potential impact on behavior, mood, learning, and memory.

The anabolic-androgenic steroid nandrolone decanoate affects the density of dopamine receptors in the male rat brain. - PubMed - NCBI (dopamine)
The Impact of Nandrolone Decanoate on the Central Nervous System (learning, behavior, and memory)
The anabolic androgenic steroid nandrolone decanoate affects mRNA expression of dopaminergic but not serotonergic receptors - ScienceDirect (dopamine)
Nandrolone abuse decreases anxiety and impairs memory in rats via central androgenic receptors (anxiety and memory)
Europe PMC (dopamine and serotonin)

I would really like to get some feedback on what everyone's experience has been, and if the side effects I have experienced are abnormal.

@Nelson Vergel @Gman86 @Cataceous @Vince Carter @Jason Sypolt

I recently experimented with Nandrolone, and it has been a mixed blessing. The most remarkable thing about it was a complete disappearance of any joint pain. No pain in the neck, shoulders, elbows, knees, or ankles, no matter how hard I pushed a workout. The disturbing problem I experienced was the dramatic uptick in hair loss. Having read about the conversion to dihydronandrolone, I stopped taking finasteride, which I had been on for 3 years for hair loss. I was fine for 10 weeks, and then my hair starting coming out in handfuls. Very disturbing. How much was the Nandrolone and how much was the stopping of finasteride? Who knows? I stopped after 12 weeks to try to stop the hair loss. Equally (?) disturbing was the emergence of — and apologies for this, I don’t mean to be crude — was the inability to ejaculate. I can have an emission; I just don’t ejaculate. I hope both conditions reverse. That said, my neck, shoulder, elbow, knee, and ankle pain are back. What’s a guy to do?

 

[Sly]

Sometimes you got to sell your soul brother. I’m almost 50 now and married 30 years. Stable job, everything in life is good except extreme joint pain. I will gladly trade my hair and whatever else for some pain relief. For me weight training also helps me deal with stress. To each is own though.

 

[poweller]

Yep. I love it, buddy. Life is a series of trade-offs and choices. I’m weighing the options of being a pain free, bald, inejaculate versus being a acerbic shooter with a patchy hairline.

 

[gaz7718]

It could be a mental thing but I noticed a slightly adverse affect on ability to maintain a strong erection over an extended period (ie 30 minutes and greater). Not enough to stop nandrolone use but I noticed it nonetheless.
I also think high dose omega 3 fish oil helps and since returning to test enanthate combined with 10g fish oil daily and 90mg deca weekly my joints are feeling pretty good.
Still yet to discover whether stopping deca will leave me back to square one on joints or whether they actually repair.