My HPTA recovery log: I have reversed my type 2 diabetes (SHBG 31/glucose 80) and may have never had hypogonadism!!

[FunkOdyssey]

I guess his FT peak is now in the normal range. No hypogonadism symptoms, then that should be fine.

I must have missed his post on that. The labs in this thread show a free T of 1.9 ng/dL. What were his most recent results?

 

[Seagal]

I must have missed his post on that. The labs in this thread show a free T of 1.9 ng/dL. What were his most recent results?

And I missed that one.

 

[Seagal]

And I missed that one.

@Systemlord Any new T labs taken in the morning?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

@Systemlord Any new T labs taken in the morning?

I would be interested as well to see if any recovery of HPTA has occurred. If not, my point stands: you can get away with short periods of severe hypogonadism without much issue. If you spend six months at that level, now the way you look and feel will be matched up with those labs.

 

[Seagal]

And I missed that one.

According to this table, 3.8 instead of 7 would be the low of the normal range. And he could belong to the 2.5% below 3.8 still being "normal" healthy.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

According to this table, 3.8 instead of 7 would be the low of the normal range.

The age-related declines only indicate that hypogonadism becomes more and more common with age, as people accumulate chronic illnesses,, obesity, etc. There's no evidence the need for testosterone declines with age though. For our purposes, we shouldn't really be paying any attention to the older age brackets.

 

[Seagal]

The age-related declines only indicate that hypogonadism becomes more and more common with age, as people accumulate chronic illnesses,, obesity, etc. There's no evidence the need for testosterone declines with age though. For our purposes, we shouldn't really be paying any attention to the older age brackets.

I'm not convinced of that. Maybe it's a homeostatic process and just upping T in otherwise healthy men is of not much benefit. Symptoms matter.

 

[Seagal]

Age-stratified reference ranges for directly measured serum free testosterone in healthy men | ECE2024 | 26th European Congress of Endocrinology | Endocrine Abstracts

www.endocrine-abstracts.org

"
Serum samples were analyzed from healthy men participating in the SIBLOS/SIBEX and EMAS studies, both population-based cohort studies. Exclusion criteria were medications or conditions that affect sex steroid metabolism or a BMI larger than 35 kg/m2.
"

Not sure how they defined healthy.

 

[Systemlord]

Have you considered the possibility that you might be enjoying a rebound effect of your hormonal axis re-activating after years on trt...probably a little premature to be declaring having found your sweet spot on the hypogonadal range at this point, also you took one afternoon snapshot of your t-levels.

I have no symptoms of low testosterone whatsoever and as I’ve lowered my vitamin D dose, my energy levels have gone up. My erections are getting better and my viens are getting bigger.

2000 IU D3 really taxes my body in strange ways. I would wake up in the morning and take my 2000 units of vitamin D and my testicles would shrink up and my feet would become cold.. The need to urinate is excessive.

 

[Systemlord]

@Systemlord Any new T labs taken in the morning?

I will be doing more labs soon. The substantial increase in my SHBG should correlate with higher Total T, significantly higher than previously. I trust in that and my lack of symptoms.

Look how sensitive to vitamin D I am, are also sensitive to testosterone. On TRT, daily injections I always felt when I went past 400 ng/dL that I was pushing things too far. Injecting 7 mg daily I felt superhuman, that’s 49 mg a week.

There’s more going on here than just short CAG repeats, I have Tourette’s syndrome or an overactive central nervous system, ADHD and my central nervous system is extremely sensitive.

I have read that people with Tourette’s syndrome have higher testosterone than the general population, but not in my case.

There was a member a couple years ago, who was muscular, young and he had a Total T at 158 ng/dL and no symptoms. He was just checking his testosterone levels out of curiosity.

I told him not to mess with his hormones.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm not convinced of that. Maybe it's a homeostatic process and just upping T in otherwise healthy men is of not much benefit. Symptoms matter.

In trying to investigate this question, I found the following study that focuses on older men age 40-79. They found a threshold level of 7.79 ng/dL free T below which sexual symptoms including loss of libido, loss of morning erections, sexual dysfunction became more frequent. They note that this level is similar to the Endocrine Society guidelines regarding free T threshold for hypogonadism (which don't change based on age).

Identification of late-onset hypogonadism in middle-aged and elderly men from a community of China - PMC

In this study, we investigated the essential criteria for late-onset hypogonadism (LOH) syndrome based on the presence of symptoms associated with low testosterone levels in Han Chinese men. Blood tests for total testosterone (TT) and sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I agree symptoms are important. Consider this scenario though: you feel good with low T levels (no symptoms), but you have a high hba1c due to poor insulin sensitivity, low bone mineral density, and are overweight with excessive fat and low muscle mass. Should we not consider testosterone treatment to reverse all of those unfavorable metrics which bode poorly for your longevity?

 

[Systemlord]

Should we not consider testosterone treatment to reverse all of those unfavorable metrics which bode poorly for your longevity?

Not if the person can correct things without the testosterone therapy.

 

[Systemlord]

Way back in 2019 when I stopped TRT the first time, my decline in health was very gradual over an 8 month period. My erectile strength took 8 months to decline and eventually cease altogether. The common denominator back then was an ever increasing fasting glucose.

Back then I was still eating sh** food and not exercising at all. Not so now and that’s why I’m seeing results. If I spend the day eating all the wrong foods, my resting heart rate increases to about 100 from the low 70’s.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Interesting thread, and I always enjoy hearing personal accounts so we can all hopefully improve our understanding of the numerous variables at play in our bodies. A few questions I have… when coming off of injections, how long did it take to start feeling better, and how long did that last? There must’ve been some reason to return to trt, so I’d like to hear the pros and cons of being on vs being off.


Edit - kind of answered some of this post with your post above it, looks like we were posting at the same time. I guess I would update it to ask, when you returned to trt did you clean up your diet?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Way back in 2019 when I stopped TRT the first time, my decline in health was very gradual over an 8 month period. My erectile strength took 8 months to decline and eventually cease altogether. The common denominator back then was an ever increasing fasting glucose.

Back then I was still eating sh** food and not exercising at all. Not so now and that’s why I’m seeing results.

This reinforces the point I've been trying to make, with the gradual 8 month decline of health and return of symptoms. I know you're excited about how things are going currently, and I'm sure the cleaned-up lifestyle is making and will continue to make a positive difference. However, if your free T is still 1.9 ng/dL after 8 months, I'm predicting the same gradual decline you saw last time, albeit with a somewhat higher floor on account of the lifestyle improvements.

If I could put money on it, I would.

 

[Systemlord]

This reinforces the point I've been trying to make, with the gradual 8 month decline of health and return of symptoms. I know you're excited about how things are going currently, and I'm sure the cleaned-up lifestyle is making and will continue to make a positive difference. However, if your free T is still 1.9 ng/dL after 8 months, I'm predicting the same gradual decline you saw last time, albeit with a somewhat higher floor on account of the lifestyle improvements.

If I could put money on it, I would.

I remember how I felt that first week with my fully functional HPTA, I feel better now than I did then.

My muscle mass and energy is increasing and fat mass decreasing. My muscle recovery time is the same as TRT. As long as I keep my diabetes under control, I’ll be fine.

The outcome can’t be the same as last time with my diabetes under control, since the ever increasing fasting glucose is what led to my decline in the first place.

 

[Seagal]

In trying to investigate this question, I found the following study that focuses on older men age 40-79. They found a threshold level of 7.79 ng/dL free T below which sexual symptoms including loss of libido, loss of morning erections, sexual dysfunction became more frequent. They note that this level is similar to the Endocrine Society guidelines regarding free T threshold for hypogonadism (which don't change based on age).

Identification of late-onset hypogonadism in middle-aged and elderly men from a community of China - PMC

In this study, we investigated the essential criteria for late-onset hypogonadism (LOH) syndrome based on the presence of symptoms associated with low testosterone levels in Han Chinese men. Blood tests for total testosterone (TT) and sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I agree symptoms are important. Consider this scenario though: you feel good with low T levels (no symptoms), but you have a high hba1c due to poor insulin sensitivity, low bone mineral density, and are overweight with excessive fat and low muscle mass. Should we not consider testosterone treatment to reverse all of those unfavorable metrics which bode poorly for your longevity?

Interesting. However my professionally biased response is: further research is required...
On the other hand I think that there should be freedom to try TRT until there is more scientific data. Hopefully soon study results on higher T dosage of TRT.

 

[Phil Goodman]

I remember how I felt that first week with my fully functional HPTA, I feel better now than I did then.

My muscle mass and energy is increasing and fat mass decreasing. My muscle recovery time is the same as TRT. As long as I keep my diabetes under control, I’ll be fine.

I’d say the verdict is still out, but do agree that keeping diabetes under control will be perhaps the most important thing. Not sure I would expect continued increase in muscle and decrease in fat though…if anything I’d expect that trend to reverse. Testosterone plays a clear role in building muscle, so once you’ve been sitting at very low levels for extended an period of time I would expect muscle loss to occur(think of age related but sped up due to more rapid drop in levels). Hopefully you’ll continue to feel great, but I think it’s possible you should be prepared for the impact to muscle. I may be wrong, but I’d be pretty surprised if I am.

 

[Mastodont]

I recently spent a week with a total T of 92 ng/dL and free T of 1 ng/dL (that's right, 1) during a failed experiment with application of test cream to the tops of my feet. I felt fine and was completely shocked at the number.

That timeline of onset for testosterone benefits operates in reverse too. All those weeks and months it took for the benefits to build up, it takes just as long for them to fall apart. There isn't a guy with few enough CAG repeats or androgen sensitivity high enough to thrive with levels that low over the long-term. There's just no way - that would be like defying gravity.

Yes i was going to say this too, i have personally been able to reap benefits of testosterone after stopping for quite some time.

 

[Systemlord]

Please don’t forget about my father’s low T value in his 70’s. He’s doing very well at 91 and still very mobile. He moves around at a quick pace. He still washes his own cars, pays golf and does normal stuff and even dances.

Like father like son.

The only thing holding me back slightly is the vitamin D related problem. My body seems to have a love-hate relationship with vitamin D. I’m either urinating out lots of calcium, and when I’m not urinating out my calcium, the leg swelling and redness occurs, all pointing to hypercalcemia like symptoms.

Newsflash, you can still have normal parathyroid hormone with normal calcium, and have a parathyroid hormone problem.