My Experience with Testopel and Ideal State

[john.davidson25]

Hello folks!

I hope this will help some of you who may be considering Testopel. I've been on it over 5 years by now, here are the Pros and Cons

Pros:
1. Do it once every 3 months. Maintains high levels of T.
2. Easy relatively painless procedure
3. Insurance covers it (after making the Dr. office jump through hoops)
4. Not constantly worrying about T dosaging is a big help.

Cons:
1. It is a surgical procedure and things do go wrong. The pellets can pop out, the entry site opens up which can lead to more serious infections
2. I always feel you get jacked with high high dosage of T in the beginning and towards the last 2 weeks you hit a major crash.
3. Not all insurance may cover it. It is expensive.

I am now thinking of switching from this to the longer acting Shots, but I get freaked out that the shots have to be administered at doctor's office and you have to be under watch.

Historically I never responded well to creams, gels, patches. All nonsense to me.

I did do the 2 week T shots on the thighs but it really messes you up as you crash the last week.

Has anyone discovered the most optimum T replacement protocol and please share if you have one.

 

[Systemlord]

Has anyone discovered the most optimum T replacement protocol and please share if you have one.

I can tell you the optimal T protocol for me, no one can tell you what’s optimal for you except you.

If someone told me injection 1-2 x per week is optimal, I would tell them this would end in treatment failure for me. If you want to find an optimal protocol, it’s probably somewhere between one shot per week to multiple shots per week.

 

[La Bull]

2x a week Sub Q in stomach works great! Do it yourself at home!
Best protocol so far for me. Keeps very stable levels.
30 mg / shot, = 60 mg / week

 

[john.davidson25]

2x a week Sub Q in stomach works great! Do it yourself at home!
Best protocol so far for me. Keeps very stable levels.
30 mg / shot, = 60 mg / week

Thank you I am seriously considering what you are saying. I don't have fond memories of injection in the thigh every 2 weeks with those horse needles but 2x a week subq maybe the right combo of convenience. Which day of the weeks do you give yourself a shot and when?

Thank you

 

[La Bull]

Thank you I am seriously considering what you are saying. I don't have fond memories of injection in the thigh every 2 weeks with those horse needles but 2x a week subq maybe the right combo of convenience. Which day of the weeks do you give yourself a shot and when?

Thank you

Sunday evenings 5-6 pm and Thursday mornings 5-6 am.

 

[john.davidson25]

Sunday evenings 5-6 pm and Thursday mornings 5-6 am.

Thank you: Lastly, what type of needles do you use and what type of Testosterone form do you inject? Hope I am not being a pest.

 

[Systemlord]

Lastly, what type of needles do you use and what type of Testosterone form do you inject?

I would use 27-29 gauge insulin syringes in the deltoids and avoid the quads as there’s too many potential nerves to hit.

 

[La Bull]

Thank you: Lastly, what type of needles do you use and what type of Testosterone form do you inject? Hope I am not being a pest.

18 ga for drawing , 27 ga for injecting, see photo…

 

[john.davidson25]

18 ga for drawing , 27 ga for injecting, see photo…

Thank you. I just have to educate myself on the drawing the right amount and getting script from DR.

I appreciate your help, very much so!!

 

[john.davidson25]

18 ga for drawing , 27 ga for injecting, see photo…

Sorry but why not just draw and inject with 27 ga, wouldn't that be easier???

 

[Deleted member 16042]

18 ga for drawing , 27 ga for injecting, see photo…

Three pieces of gear when you only need one:

Insulin syringes, one needle fixed to syringe.

choose volume to cover your dose, and needle size to your comfort.

I use 5/16" 30g 0.3ml syringe for tiny daily shots. No more effort than making a cup of coffee. It is the easiest routine for me. Injecting larger amounts is more difficult. This is painess... SubQ works for me. it doesn't for everyone

 

[Golfboy307]

40mg Test Cyp every 2.5-3 days, inject in thighs IM with 27g 1 inch needle. Took a year of experimenting to get the right protocol for me. Results in TT in the 850 range, with Free T and Bioavailability in the middle upper range. No AI and No HCG. My wife is on pellets, and I don't think that is for me for the reasons you list above.

 

[john.davidson25]

Thanks guys but honestly I am more confused than ever:

Shots 2 times a week, shots once a day, shot Subq in abdomen, shot on thighs. Gauge 27, 32, 30mg of Test, 40 mg of Test. Oooh boy.

I even tried that once a week XYLOL product and it didn't do a damn thing for me.

Despite all the pain, I may have to stick with pellets only because I don't even know where to begin with the shots to find that UNICORN protocol.

But I do thank all of you sincerely for your input!!

 

[La Bull]

Thanks guys but honestly I am more confused than ever:

Shots 2 times a week, shots once a day, shot Subq in abdomen, shot on thighs. Gauge 27, 32, 30mg of Test, 40 mg of Test. Oooh boy.

I even tried that once a week XYLOL product and it didn't do a damn thing for me.

Despite all the pain, I may have to stick with pellets only because I don't even know where to begin with the shots to find that UNICORN protocol.

But I do thank all of you sincerely for your input!!

Your Dr should advise the protocol and prescribe your amount.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Thanks guys but honestly I am more confused than ever:

Shots 2 times a week, shots once a day, shot Subq in abdomen, shot on thighs. Gauge 27, 32, 30mg of Test, 40 mg of Test. Oooh boy.

I even tried that once a week XYLOL product and it didn't do a damn thing for me.

Despite all the pain, I may have to stick with pellets only because I don't even know where to begin with the shots to find that UNICORN protocol.

But I do thank all of you sincerely for your input!!

Aw man! Don't give up on your other options!

I'll write a comprehensive overview shortly. I don't think you need to get lost in the choices, but it is important to realize that it can take some trial and error, and that can be a long term process. Having the knowledge basis to understand these choices is important. Many doctors who prescribe testosterone have no idea how to manage each individual's case.

You are having very typical trouble with pellets. Why continue with such trouble?

I'll be back.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

The middle of the road is generally a good starting point. So what is that mid point? That involves choices in terms of delivery method, the testosterone reparation/product, dosage schedules, dose itself (the amount), and in the case of injections whether to go IntraMuscular IM, or Sub Cutaneous SubQ.

Delivery method, preparation and product are closely interrelated. you have choices of pellets, topical cream or gel absorbed by the skin, an oral form,nasal form, and probably the middle of the road is a moderate dose by injection that puts you in upper physiological range. Each method has pluses and minuses.

Pellets as you have found are troublesome in place, sometimes popping out, creating wound infection problems, and large long term swings in blood level which creates excessive highs and lows through the cycle. It also has the disadvantage that dosage adjustments are near impossible in any timely manner.

Topical has the benefit of no invasive injection or pellet insertion, but is not effective for many men. And it increases DHT which can come with its own side effects especially applied to the scrotum. Topicals can also transfer to those in physical contact, especially undesirable for children. Typically transdermal is taken daily or even twice a day.

The oral form jatenzo is very short acting and is taken twice a day. It is the only thing that has worked well for one of our members here.

And nasal form natesto, which commonly has nasal side effects. It is used 3 times/day a pump into each nostril.

Injections: The middle of the road probably lies somewhere with injections, since you have a wide range of control with how much, how often, what type of ester (speed of release) and injection method: Intramuscular or Sub cutaneous. Every aspect can be custom tailored. I'll focus the rest of the info on this. (note again, injections do not work out for a few.)

Total amount: i.e. weekly dose, what is your goal? Some of us get by very well on what is considered very little. This is true physiological dosing that puts lab values in "normal range" I personally am on the low end at 56mg/week total dose. Some guys would remain seriously hypogonadal on this kind of dose. The middle to upper physiological range is roughly 75mg-150mg/ week. 100mg keeps an awful lot of guys in upper normal range to pushing the upper edge. It can take more for some men who do better on 150mg/week, but at that level, most men will be supraphysiological with total T above 1200 and free T above 30. for some that is a good range, but for many also come with undesrable side effects like high hematocrit, flat feeling, loss of libido etc.

So, another aspect of managing levels is to focus on Free T, not Total T. The free T is the useable stuff. Total T is not irrelevant, but free T inconjunction with how you are felling says a lot. There is a problem with testing though. There is still a Federal project going to try to harmonize testing methodologies. There are multiple methods which do not agree with each other as well as we would like. Most common is Free T direct, generally considered the worst form of testing, Free T equilibrium dialysis or ultrafiltration, is the current golden standard. Then there are calculators, Vermuelen and TruT, which can be found online. Jury is still out here.

Sorry to digress.

Next, injectable esters, which relate to dosing frequency.: The most commonly used are testosterone cypionate and enanthate. Functionally they are about the same. They are medium long acting. There are outliers who might do OK on every other week on these esters as the prescribing info recommends, but for the most part that's pretty much bunk, There are more men who do OK on one shot a week, but it seems probably the middle of the bell curve is 2-3 doses per week. Then for others every other day or daily shots work best. There is no magic one fits all dosage or frequency that works for everyone. This why you are getting confusing even conflicting replies. finding your personal balance takes trying things til a protocol make you feel good consistently.

Other esters flank those two: Testosterone undeconoate is very long acting, like months, and much like pellets there is a very long swing. Sustanon is a blend of ester including undeconoate and also intended for infrequent dosing The shorter esters bring you up faster than undeconoate and the undeconoate keeps you there until the long drop off.

The other side is testosterone proprionate which is short acting, It can be used to mimic a daily cycle on naturally produced (endogenous) T in the body, but it's rise and fall even more abrupt. Some of us blend proprionate with cypionate or enanthate which closely mimics a normal endogenous daily cycle.

Pure unbound testosterone is not terribly useful for long term TRT, It is used immediately and used up fast.

Injection gear/method:

There is an autoinjector "xyosted" availalable in 50mg. 75mg and 100mg doses, but very expensive compared to using generic syringes and T in bulk vials.

Intramuscular vs SubCutaneous:

Some do well on either, some do well on only one or the other. Common complaints about IM: big needles, and "needle fatigue, scarring from long term injections, more pain. EDIT/ADDENDUM: Injections sites for IM: glutes, glute medialis, deltoids, quadriceps. Many have more pain with Quad injections.

Common complaints about SubQ: lumps/bumps in fatty tissue, less effective in terms of blood levels (It is absolutely as effective in many of us). I personally wonder if some of this has to do with body fat. It seems the majority of reports are about these happening in fat. Technically, SubQ is into fat. Personally I have found that I get lumps sometimes injecting in thicker denser fat. I don't have much fat, but have learned to avoid the body of the fat pads and inject around the edges of them where it is pretty much just skin, not a thick fat layer... anyway I have very few problems with lumps or bumps and absorption is excellent. All that said, it is my personal bias. SubQ does not work out for some men. EDIT/Addendum: Common Injection sites: belly around but not right next to the umbilical, love handles, skin over glutes. Varying technique can be used from straight in to deeper fat layers or pinching or pulling up thinner skin and injecting at an angle, which is shallower. Also if someone is giving you a subQ injection, the back of the upper arm is commonly used.

The gear for injections: the old school standard was to draw with a very large bore needle then change needle to a fairly large deep IM needle like 1-1.25" and go deep. Because this kind of injection is bigger, also a larger dose was typically given. Big dose into big muscle to theoretically last longer so there are fewer injections over time. It was thought testosterone could only be used IM as well. That's not true, so evolution has given us the ability to use smaller needles with less pain and scarring and use smaller more frequent doses.

Again there are a few men who don't do well with small needles, and need or want deeper IM, but most do just fine with either shallow IM using 1/2" needles or subQ down to 5/16" needles.

Needle gauge: This relates to the carrier oil. Typically T cyp and enanthate come in cottonseed oil or grapeseed oil. Cottonseed is more viscous, The oil is thicker, harder to draw and inject. A larger gauge needle is faster to fill and inject. I do fine with 30g and grapeseed oil. Some are more impatient and would want 29 or 27g. With cottonseed oil, the larger gauge is faster and easier. And, warming the vial makes the oil flow easier. 30-27g, 5/16-1/2" can be had as insulin syringes. Like my previous post stated, a single piece of gear instead of multiple parts. And there is less waste with these. Changeable tip syringes retain more after injection, so there is more loss.

OK so this is utterly my personal opinion, but I think many would agree. A middle of the road starting point is around 100mg/week divided into 2-3 doses with a 1/2" insulin syringe matched in size to your dose and the type of carrier oil. In retospect some of us have had to lower dose repeatedly to arrive at a good physiological level without side effects like high Hematocrit. In retrospect we would have done better starting lower in the first place. more like the 75 mg level.

Whatever you choose as starting point, give it time to work. It takes 6-8 weeks to reach steady blood levels and longer for the body to fully adapt. If you feel symptoms and make repeated adjustments in short order you will be chasing your tail never knowing what your actual balance is.

OK, I have had my say, I hope the info is useful. I recommend you research further. Don't just take my word or anyone else's, but realize the subject area is huge and it takes time to ingest the info. Search on these products and for discussions on this forum pertaining to each subject. I think you might find common ground.

 

[john.davidson25]

The middle of the road is generally a good starting point. So what is that mid point? That involves choices in terms of delivery method, the testosterone reparation/product, dosage schedules, dose itself (the amount), and in the case of injections whether to go IntraMuscular IM, or Sub Cutaneous SubQ.

Delivery method, preparation and product are closely interrelated. you have choices of pellets, topical cream or gel absorbed by the skin, an oral form,nasal form, and probably the middle of the road is a moderate dose by injection that puts you in upper physiological range. Each method has pluses and minuses.

Pellets as you have found are troublesome in place, sometimes popping out, creating wound infection problems, and large long term swings in blood level which creates excessive highs and lows through the cycle. It also has the disadvantage that dosage adjustments are near impossible in any timely manner.

Topical has the benefit of no invasive injection or pellet insertion, but is not effective for many men. And it increases DHT which can come with its own side effects especially applied to the scrotum. Topicals can also transfer to those in physical contact, especially undesirable for children. Typically transdermal is taken daily or even twice a day.

The oral form jatenzo is very short acting and is taken twice a day. It is the only thing that has worked well for one of our members here.

And nasal form natesto, which commonly has nasal side effects. It is used 3 times/day a pump into each nostril.

Injections: The middle of the road probably lies somewhere with injections, since you have a wide range of control with how much, how often, what type of ester (speed of release) and injection method: Intramuscular or Sub cutaneous. Every aspect can be custom tailored. I'll focus the rest of the info on this. (note again, injections do not work out for a few.)

Total amount: i.e. weekly dose, what is your goal? Some of us get by very well on what is considered very little. This is true physiological dosing that puts lab values in "normal range" I personally am on the low end at 56mg/week total dose. Some guys would remain seriously hypogonadal on this kind of dose. The middle to upper physiological range is roughly 75mg-150mg/ week. 100mg keeps an awful lot of guys in upper normal range to pushing the upper edge. It can take more for some men who do better on 150mg/week, but at that level, most men will be supraphysiological with total T above 1200 and free T above 30. for some that is a good range, but for many also come with undesrable side effects like high hematocrit, flat feeling, loss of libido etc.

So, another aspect of managing levels is to focus on Free T, not Total T. The free T is the useable stuff. Total T is not irrelevant, but free T inconjunction with how you are felling says a lot. There is a problem with testing though. There is still a Federal project going to try to harmonize testing methodologies. There are multiple methods which do not agree with each other as well as we would like. Most common is Free T direct, generally considered the worst form of testing, Free T equilibrium dialysis or ultrafiltration, is the current golden standard. Then there are calculators, Vermuelen and TruT, which can be found online. Jury is still out here.

Sorry to digress.

Next, injectable esters, which relate to dosing frequency.: The most commonly used are testosterone cypionate and enanthate. Functionally they are about the same. They are medium long acting. There are outliers who might do OK on every other week on these esters as the prescribing info recommends, but for the most part that's pretty much bunk, There are more men who do OK on one shot a week, but it seems probably the middle of the bell curve is 2-3 doses per week. Then for others every other day or daily shots work best. There is no magic one fits all dosage or frequency that works for everyone. This why you are getting confusing even conflicting replies. finding your personal balance takes trying things til a protocol make you feel good consistently.

Other esters flank those two: Testosterone undeconoate is very long acting, like months, and much like pellets there is a very long swing. Sustanon is a blend of ester including undeconoate and also intended for infrequent dosing The shorter esters bring you up faster than undeconoate and the undeconoate keeps you there until the long drop off.

The other side is testosterone proprionate which is short acting, It can be used to mimic a daily cycle on naturally produced (endogenous) T in the body, but it's rise and fall even more abrupt. Some of us blend proprionate with cypionate or enanthate which closely mimics a normal endogenous daily cycle.

Pure unbound testosterone is not terribly useful for long term TRT, It is used immediately and used up fast.

Injection gear/method:

There is an autoinjector "xyosted" availalable in 50mg. 75mg and 100mg doses, but very expensive compared to using generic syringes and T in bulk vials.

Intramuscular vs SubCutaneous:

Some do well on either, some do well on only one or the other. Common complaints about IM: big needles, and "needle fatigue, scarring from long term injections, more pain. EDIT/ADDENDUM: Injections sites for IM: glutes, glute medialis, deltoids, quadriceps. Many have more pain with Quad injections.

Common complaints about SubQ: lumps/bumps in fatty tissue, less effective in terms of blood levels (It is absolutely as effective in many of us). I personally wonder if some of this has to do with body fat. It seems the majority of reports are about these happening in fat. Technically, SubQ is into fat. Personally I have found that I get lumps sometimes injecting in thicker denser fat. I don't have much fat, but have learned to avoid the body of the fat pads and inject around the edges of them where it is pretty much just skin, not a thick fat layer... anyway I have very few problems with lumps or bumps and absorption is excellent. All that said, it is my personal bias. SubQ does not work out for some men. EDIT/Addendum: Common Injection sites: belly around but not right next to the umbilical, love handles, skin over glutes. Varying technique can be used from straight in to deeper fat layers or pinching or pulling up thinner skin and injecting at an angle, which is shallower. Also if someone is giving you a subQ injection, the back of the upper arm is commonly used.

The gear for injections: the old school standard was to draw with a very large bore needle then change needle to a fairly large deep IM needle like 1-1.25" and go deep. Because this kind of injection is bigger, also a larger dose was typically given. Big dose into big muscle to theoretically last longer so there are fewer injections over time. It was thought testosterone could only be used IM as well. That's not true, so evolution has given us the ability to use smaller needles with less pain and scarring and use smaller more frequent doses.

Again there are a few men who don't do well with small needles, and need or want deeper IM, but most do just fine with either shallow IM using 1/2" needles or subQ down to 5/16" needles.

Needle gauge: This relates to the carrier oil. Typically T cyp and enanthate come in cottonseed oil or grapeseed oil. Cottonseed is more viscous, The oil is thicker, harder to draw and inject. A larger gauge needle is faster to fill and inject. I do fine with 30g and grapeseed oil. Some are more impatient and would want 29 or 27g. With cottonseed oil, the larger gauge is faster and easier. And, warming the vial makes the oil flow easier. 30-27g, 5/16-1/2" can be had as insulin syringes. Like my previous post stated, a single piece of gear instead of multiple parts. And there is less waste with these. Changeable tip syringes retain more after injection, so there is more loss.

OK so this is utterly my personal opinion, but I think many would agree. A middle of the road starting point is around 100mg/week divided into 2-3 doses with a 1/2" insulin syringe matched in size to your dose and the type of carrier oil. In retospect some of us have had to lower dose repeatedly to arrive at a good physiological level without side effects like high Hematocrit. In retrospect we would have done better starting lower in the first place. more like the 75 mg level.

Whatever you choose as starting point, give it time to work. It takes 6-8 weeks to reach steady blood levels and longer for the body to fully adapt. If you feel symptoms and make repeated adjustments in short order you will be chasing your tail never knowing what your actual balance is.

OK, I have had my say, I hope the info is useful. I recommend you research further. Don't just take my word or anyone else's, but realize the subject area is huge and it takes time to ingest the info. Search on these products and for discussions on this forum pertaining to each subject. I think you might find common ground.

First, thank you!! You have have done God's work: you took the time to put this all together and I appreciate your help and camaraderie very much. Very appreciated. I actually copied and pasted your post to my notepad for future reference.

Second, it's a shame that the medical community is so illiterate about this issue. I have secondary hypo: I was diagnosed years a go and the doctor just said, here inject yourself once twice a week and off you go. That was it. This forum has more valuable information than 90% of the medical community. It's a damn shame! Too bad this forum wasn't around when I was diagnosed and I really suffered.

So again, a very special thank you and to all the contributors. Hopefully this will benefit someone new too so they don't deal with the garbage from the medical community I dealt with.

My current doctor is great who does the implants but it took me ages to find him.

Just out of curiosity: what do you know about fatigue and lethargy in men taking T Treatment. I am not talking about the times when T is low and causes fatigue and lack of energy. Lately I have been feeling this more even at peak of T: And T is the ONLY thing I take. I wonder if I should add something else to the mix.

Best

 

[Systemlord]

I am not talking about the times when T is low and causes fatigue and lack of energy. Lately I have been feeling this more even at peak of T: And T is the ONLY thing I take. I wonder if I should add something else to the mix.

An iron panel wouldn’t hurt. There’s a link between high testosterone and lower end ferritin and vice versa.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

First, thank you!! You have have done God's work: you took the time to put this all together and I appreciate your help and camaraderie very much. Very appreciated. I actually copied and pasted your post to my notepad for future reference.

Second, it's a shame that the medical community is so illiterate about this issue. I have secondary hypo: I was diagnosed years a go and the doctor just said, here inject yourself once twice a week and off you go. That was it. This forum has more valuable information than 90% of the medical community. It's a damn shame! Too bad this forum wasn't around when I was diagnosed and I really suffered.

So again, a very special thank you and to all the contributors. Hopefully this will benefit someone new too so they don't deal with the garbage from the medical community I dealt with.

My current doctor is great who does the implants but it took me ages to find him.

Just out of curiosity: what do you know about fatigue and lethargy in men taking T Treatment. I am not talking about the times when T is low and causes fatigue and lack of energy. Lately I have been feeling this more even at peak of T: And T is the ONLY thing I take. I wonder if I should add something else to the mix.

Best

Very glad it is useful to you!

I agree, This forum collectively is probably the premier place as a clearing house of information for actual TRT, not TOT for supraphysiological use or AAS for bodybuilding/sports.

So many things can cause fatigue, in addition to iron/ferritin, hypothyroid, hematocrit, CBC and CMP... there are numerous disease states, blood deficiencies, nutrient deficiencies, lyme disease, cancer, depression, bad sleep/hypoxia/apnea, lack of physical activity, etc.

 

[JRos895]

Very glad it is useful to you!

I agree, This forum collectively is probably the premier place as a clearing house of information for actual TRT, not TOT for supraphysiological use or AAS for bodybuilding/sports.

So many things can cause fatigue, in addition to iron/ferritin, hypothyroid, hematocrit, CBC and CMP... there are numerous disease states, blood deficiencies, nutrient deficiencies, lyme disease, cancer, depression, bad sleep/hypoxia/apnea, lack of physical activity, etc.

This is the only forum where a 75mg weekly dose of T is considered normal (which is backed up by research), and not insanely low.

It’s crazy how many forums and even practicing doctors who are respected in the field think 100mg-200mg of T is “normal”.