Trough reading at 1482?! I am assuming you’re high SHBG? If I was on a that dose I would be in a BAD place w sides. Thanks for your insights!!!
Minimum Dosage or freq for low SHBG
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slicktop
Active Member
well, there's really not much of a trough reading when you're doing daily shots, ya know? Best you can do is ~23-24 hours post shot. And no, I'm not high SHBG. I run in the mid 20's typically. I don't notice side effects unless it's with elevated estrogen.
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Is there any added health concern with nandrolone? I seem to recall that it could have a negative effect on heart muscle tissue. I'm happy to be wrong though as this might be a potential route for me given that I'm lowish SHBG.
Vince
Super Moderator
Nandrolone and resistance training induce heart remodeling: Role of fetal genes and implications for cardiac pathophysiology
This study was conducted to assess the isolated and combined effects of nandrolone and resistance training on cardiac morphology, function, and mRNA e…
www.sciencedirect.com
That study used high doses and rats. Vince, you have nandrolone in your protocol, does that mean you're not concerned about it's potential health side effects? If so, Is that because of the low dose?Nandrolone and resistance training induce heart remodeling: Role of fetal genes and implications for cardiac pathophysiology
This study was conducted to assess the isolated and combined effects of nandrolone and resistance training on cardiac morphology, function, and mRNA e…
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Vince
Super Moderator
Am I concerned. Yes I would say I’m concerned. I’m having my classical cholesterol lipid panel done on June 23. I will also have the echocardiogram done in February, to check my heart.
What are your reasons for running it, and how long has it been in your protocol?
Vince
Super Moderator
I like the way it makes me feel mentally. I've also been making extra gains in the gym. Overall I feel better with Nandrolone in my protocol then without it.
It's been part of my protocol for about 10 weeks now.
mairomaster
New Member
I've been running 200 mg Sustanon + 200 mg Nandrolone D for 4 weeks now as an experiment (both split M, W, F) and I just did a blood test. I was a bit surprised that the result came out as high as 3200 ng/dL. Keep in mind that it is ECLIA test and it doesn't differentiate between testosterone and nandrolone, so this is the total concentration. So the testosterone only will be roughly 1600 ng/dL which is still fairly high, but nothing super crazy.
I will probably reduce the dose of both soon, but I have been feeling amazing so far. Libido is a lot higher than before (I used to run 150 mg Sustanon only), energy is really good. I haven't felt the gym gains yet, but I've just started getting back in shape so that would explain this.
No side effects so far. Hematocrit is 44%, didn't get elevated at all yet, same for hemoglobin. Blood pressure is normal, again no change compared to before. Cholesterol got slightly worse, meaning LDL increased a bit and HDL decreased a bit, but it's still within the healthy norms and it could be just natural variation, unrelated to starting Nandrolone. As far as I know, Nandrolone shouldn't really screw your cholesterol.
I am running bloods every month when changing a protocol to make sure I track changes closely. Many people might say that I am running a crazy high doses, but if I am feeling excellent and I experience no side effects / negative blood changes, I don't really see a huge problem with that. I've been having many joint problems / tendon - muscle recovery problems before when doing intensive sports, so I will quite welcome the beneficial effects of Nandrolone regarding that. Gym gains will be welcome too, although I don't really want to be getting any bigger, just stronger.
Thanks Nelson! I also watched a video last night where you started that you'd been on nandrolone for 20 or so years before. True?
Vince
Super Moderator
Do you mean that Nelson started.
"Stated" autocorrect
I'm glad things are working out for you. So, your total T dose per day is 400mg, 200AM 200PM, right? Do you take hCG? What times during the day and night do you apply your cream? Thanks.
madman
Super Moderator
I've been running 200 mg Sustanon + 200 mg Nandrolone D
The dose of T + ND you are using has absolutely nothing to do with trt.
No side effects so far. Hematocrit is 44%, didn't get elevated at all yet, same for hemoglobin.
What were you expecting as you are only 4 weeks in using a decanoate ester and you have not even reached a steady-state?
8-12 weeks is where things may change.
Would put money on it that your hematocrit is roughly mid-range because you were either anemic pre-trt, had lower levels naturally or you donate frequently (a most likely scenario) as 200mg/week of T would have most men's levels elevated.
Many people might say that I am running a crazy high doses, but if I am feeling excellent and I experience no side effects / negative blood changes, I don't really see a huge problem with that.
Far from crazy high as you state but again 200mg T + 200mg ND weekly is not trt, plain and simple.
I've been having many joint problems/tendon - muscle recovery problems before when doing intensive sports, so I will quite welcome the beneficial effects of Nandrolone regarding that.
Herein lies the problem the main reason most would add ND to a TRT protocol is to relieve/improve joint pain or in cases where a T only protocol results in too many side-effects than in order to counteract such the dose of T will be lowered and ND would be added.
In the former, the prescribed dose for nandrolone is 50-100 mg/week maximum as higher doses are absolutely not needed.
In the latter, the dose of T would be <100mg/week combined with nandrolone at 100-200 mg/week, and in most cases, 200mg of ND would not be needed.
The doses you are using in no way mirror such.
The only reason one would add 200-200+mg/week of nandrolone to a high end dosed trt protocol is to enhance muscle/strength gains.
Keep in mind that although nandrolone will improve joint pain/bone health in most it does not heal damaged tendons which in most cases is tendinosis (degeneration) from wear/tear, aging.
Nandrolone will just mask the symptoms due to increase lubrication of the joints, fluid retention, increased collagen.
Very rare one would use nandrolone short-term to cure such issues permanently as symptoms will eventually come back once it is stopped.
mairomaster
New Member
@madman Thank you for the input!
The dose of T + ND you are using has absolutely nothing to do with trt.
Yes, I understand that people have different views on the topic with dosing. I am just currently experimenting with higher doses - more on this a bit later.
What were you expecting as you are only 4 weeks in using a decanoate ester and you have not even reached a steady-state?
You are right, I am not safe forever. But as I said, I am running bloods every 4 weeks, so if things start getting south, I will cut the dose. I might do that anyway, just to be safe, even if things continue being good.
you were either anemic pre-trt, had lower levels naturally or you donate frequently
I ran several complete blood tests in the spawn of a few months before starting TRT and everything was good and fairly consistent. Hemoglobin was between 149 - 153 g/L and Hematocrit was between 44 - 46%. Those haven't changed significantly so far, as I stated. My Iron/Ferritin levels were good as well. I've never donated blood in my life.
In the former, the prescribed dose for nandrolone is 50-100 mg/week maximum as higher doses are absolutely not needed.
You might be right, but as I couldn't find super solid information about the dose regarding joint pain relieve, I decided to go on the higher side to be safe. At least if it doesn't help at this dose, I would 100% know it's not because of the dose. Do you have some solid information that above 100mg is completely not necessary for joint pain?
or in cases where a T only protocol results in too many side-effects than in order to counteract such the dose of T will be lowered and ND would be added
That's kind of my case as well though, but in a slightly different context. If I want to experiment with a higher those, it will be much wiser to use 200 Test / 200 Nandrolone compared to 400 Test. The chance is that the side effects will probably be much heavier in the latter case.
I need to apologise by the way - I said no side effects, but in fact I have one. I started holding quite a bit of water - about 14 lbs or so since I started TRT. That is probably mostly due to the high dose of testosterone. It is fairly annoying in terms of appearance and I am looking at ways to manage that at the moment.
The only reason one would add 200-200+mg/week of nandrolone to a high end dosed trt protocol is to enhance muscle/strength gains.
Again I don't care much about muscle gain, I would prefer to stay around the same body weight. Some re-composition would be nice though, because I have quite a bit of fat still. Some strength gain will be nice, but I was quite strong before TRT anyway and that's not mandatory. By far the biggest reason to try a high dose is the enhanced recovery effect. I am training MMA + Gym about 5 days a week. Before TRT this was literally killing my body and I couldn't maintain it for long periods of time. I was also getting injured far too often. I've spent a long time looking into it and made sure everything is proper. I always had a really good sleep, eating well, drinking a lot of water, training smart, etc. But nothing was helping. My body was recovering much slower than the average hobbyist in the sport. Then I found that I am hypo-gonadal and that was a perfect explanation of my problems.
I haven't had the chance to get back to MMA due to Covid yet, but I am really looking forward to it. For the moment I am hitting the gym hard and trying to get in a good shape. And a bit preemptively I decided to experiment with slightly higher TRT doses, to make sure my body will have plenty of hormones to improve the recovery rates. If that helps or I start getting bad side effects, I will make sure I reduce the dose and run something safer.
I don't think I have much residual tendinosis, but my tendons were getting upset from training very easily for sure. Do you think TRT/Nandrolone might help with that? If it does I plan to be running it long term, using the minimum dose I can afford to be symptom free at.
And to contribute to the topic a bit more - I forgot to mention that my SHBG is really low as well - it's been staying around 12 for months now, and it wasn't much higher before starting TRT - around 16. So far injecting M/W/F works really well for me, I haven't tried a different frequency.
The dose of T + ND you are using has absolutely nothing to do with trt.
Yes, I understand that people have different views on the topic with dosing. I am just currently experimenting with higher doses - more on this a bit later.
What were you expecting as you are only 4 weeks in using a decanoate ester and you have not even reached a steady-state?
You are right, I am not safe forever. But as I said, I am running bloods every 4 weeks, so if things start getting south, I will cut the dose. I might do that anyway, just to be safe, even if things continue being good.
you were either anemic pre-trt, had lower levels naturally or you donate frequently
I ran several complete blood tests in the spawn of a few months before starting TRT and everything was good and fairly consistent. Hemoglobin was between 149 - 153 g/L and Hematocrit was between 44 - 46%. Those haven't changed significantly so far, as I stated. My Iron/Ferritin levels were good as well. I've never donated blood in my life.
In the former, the prescribed dose for nandrolone is 50-100 mg/week maximum as higher doses are absolutely not needed.
You might be right, but as I couldn't find super solid information about the dose regarding joint pain relieve, I decided to go on the higher side to be safe. At least if it doesn't help at this dose, I would 100% know it's not because of the dose. Do you have some solid information that above 100mg is completely not necessary for joint pain?
or in cases where a T only protocol results in too many side-effects than in order to counteract such the dose of T will be lowered and ND would be added
That's kind of my case as well though, but in a slightly different context. If I want to experiment with a higher those, it will be much wiser to use 200 Test / 200 Nandrolone compared to 400 Test. The chance is that the side effects will probably be much heavier in the latter case.
I need to apologise by the way - I said no side effects, but in fact I have one. I started holding quite a bit of water - about 14 lbs or so since I started TRT. That is probably mostly due to the high dose of testosterone. It is fairly annoying in terms of appearance and I am looking at ways to manage that at the moment.
The only reason one would add 200-200+mg/week of nandrolone to a high end dosed trt protocol is to enhance muscle/strength gains.
Again I don't care much about muscle gain, I would prefer to stay around the same body weight. Some re-composition would be nice though, because I have quite a bit of fat still. Some strength gain will be nice, but I was quite strong before TRT anyway and that's not mandatory. By far the biggest reason to try a high dose is the enhanced recovery effect. I am training MMA + Gym about 5 days a week. Before TRT this was literally killing my body and I couldn't maintain it for long periods of time. I was also getting injured far too often. I've spent a long time looking into it and made sure everything is proper. I always had a really good sleep, eating well, drinking a lot of water, training smart, etc. But nothing was helping. My body was recovering much slower than the average hobbyist in the sport. Then I found that I am hypo-gonadal and that was a perfect explanation of my problems.
I haven't had the chance to get back to MMA due to Covid yet, but I am really looking forward to it. For the moment I am hitting the gym hard and trying to get in a good shape. And a bit preemptively I decided to experiment with slightly higher TRT doses, to make sure my body will have plenty of hormones to improve the recovery rates. If that helps or I start getting bad side effects, I will make sure I reduce the dose and run something safer.
I don't think I have much residual tendinosis, but my tendons were getting upset from training very easily for sure. Do you think TRT/Nandrolone might help with that? If it does I plan to be running it long term, using the minimum dose I can afford to be symptom free at.
And to contribute to the topic a bit more - I forgot to mention that my SHBG is really low as well - it's been staying around 12 for months now, and it wasn't much higher before starting TRT - around 16. So far injecting M/W/F works really well for me, I haven't tried a different frequency.
It's the 200mg/ml topi-click dispenser compounded by Empower. no HCG, no AI. No DHEA, etc. I really feel this is my favorite delivery system after trying all others for past 18 years... for me. I average on application times of 2 clicks@0800-0900 & 2 clicks@ 1700-1800 for 2nd dose. Noticeable DHT benefits I have include: muscle hardness, increased facial hair growth, deeper voice, increased penile sensitivity, aggression, enhanced libido, and sense of wellbeing. Some sides I see time to time are increased oily skin on forehead and occasional zit. Hope this helps.
madman
Super Moderator
Yes, I understand that people have different views on the topic with dosing. I am just currently experimenting with higher doses - more on this a bit later.
I understand but the dose of ND you are adding to your high-end trt dose has nothing to do with trt/hrt.
You are right, I am not safe forever. But as I said, I am running bloods every 4 weeks, so if things start getting south, I will cut the dose. I might do that anyway, just to be safe, even if things continue being good.
Again you are only 4 weeks in using a decanoate ester and have not reached steady state and you would need to give it 8-12 weeks to truly see how it affects blood markers.
Even then 200mg T + 200mg ND/week is not a trt/hrt protocol.
I ran several complete blood tests in the spawn of a few months before starting TRT and everything was good and fairly consistent. Hemoglobin was between 149 - 153 g/L and Hematocrit was between 44 - 46%. Those haven't changed significantly so far, as I stated. My Iron/Ferritin levels were good as well. I've never donated blood in my life.
Consider yourself one of the lucky few and 4 weeks in is way too early to see how ND will affect blood markers.
You might be right, but as I couldn't find super solid information about the dose regarding joint pain relieve, I decided to go on the higher side to be safe. At least if it doesn't help at this dose, I would 100% know it's not because of the dose. Do you have some solid information that above 100mg is completely not necessary for joint pain?
The Lipschultz study.
The dose of ND prescribed for joint pain/bone health is 50-100mg/week.
You are kidding yourself if you think one needs an absurd dose of 200mg/week.
Unfortunately jumping in feet first is for the eager and uninformed.
That's kind of my case as well though, but in a slightly different context. If I want to experiment with a higher those, it will be much wiser to use 200 Test / 200 Nandrolone compared to 400 Test. The chance is that the side effects will probably be much heavier in the latter case.
True but again this would only be implemented when one is looking to enhance muscle/strength gains and has absolutely nothing to do with trt/hrt.
I need to apologise by the way - I said no side effects, but in fact I have one. I started holding quite a bit of water - about 14 lbs or so since I started TRT. That is probably mostly due to the high dose of testosterone. It is fairly annoying in terms of appearance and I am looking at ways to manage that at the moment.
Not surprised and I bet your FT is through the roof as your SHBG is low.
Again I don't care much about muscle gain, I would prefer to stay around the same body weight. Some re-composition would be nice though, because I have quite a bit of fat still. Some strength gain will be nice, but I was quite strong before TRT anyway and that's not mandatory. By far the biggest reason to try a high dose is the enhanced recovery effect. I am training MMA + Gym about 5 days a week. Before TRT this was literally killing my body and I couldn't maintain it for long periods of time. I was also getting injured far too often. I've spent a long time looking into it and made sure everything is proper. I always had a really good sleep, eating well, drinking a lot of water, training smart, etc. But nothing was helping. My body was recovering much slower than the average hobbyist in the sport. Then I found that I am hypo-gonadal and that was a perfect explanation of my problems.
I haven't had the chance to get back to MMA due to Covid yet, but I am really looking forward to it. For the moment I am hitting the gym hard and trying to get in a good shape. And a bit preemptively I decided to experiment with slightly higher TRT doses, to make sure my body will have plenty of hormones to improve the recovery rates. If that helps or I start getting bad side effects, I will make sure I reduce the dose and run something safer.
Most of your issues stemmed from the fact that you were hypogonadal.
Starting trt and using a dose of T which would allow you to attain a healthy TT/FT level would in and of itself have a positive impact mentally/physically.
You are already using a high-end dosed trt protocol and seeing as you have low SHBG than your FT is most likely already really high.
You had blood work done but did not use the LC/MS-MS to see where your TT levels truly sit let alone your FT level.
Sure adding in the ND will enhance muscle/strength/recovery but this is not a trt/hrt protocol let alone stay on for the long-term.
I don't think I have much residual tendinosis, but my tendons were getting upset from training very easily for sure. Do you think TRT/Nandrolone might help with that? If it does I plan to be running it long term, using the minimum dose I can afford to be symptom free at.
And to contribute to the topic a bit more - I forgot to mention that my SHBG is really low as well - it's been staying around 12 for months now, and it wasn't much higher before starting TRT - around 16. So far injecting M/W/F works really well for me, I haven't tried a different frequency.
You may notice less pain but T nor ND will heal damaged tendons and higher doses may very well be detrimental to tendon health in the long run especially when used long term.
Great. Yes very helpful. Thank you. wow. 18 years. I have been on TRT for a little over 2 years with decent results. Right now I am doing a combo of shots, hCG and cream, which has somewhat improved my results, but not where I want to be. My next move will probably to lower shot dose and increase cream dose or go straight to only cream. Do you apply all cream to scrotum? My SHBG is usual mid 20's. Do you know where your is at? I wonder if dosing, timing and frequency of dosing should vary for people based on SHBG. Thanks again.
C
Chroniclowe
Guest
What is the weekly dosage u using? I remember when i tried the short acting(nandrolone phenylpropionate) versio for two weeks 150mg/wk, i also felt fantastic, mood and libido was sky high, way better than test alone. BUT the downsides my testicles shrinked to very small, and i cummed only couple drops of very watery semen. That was horror so i quitted it. And i have primary hypogonadism to begin with so thats propably the reason my testicles and semen suffered so bad when i tried little bit nandrolone . Or the nandrolone dosage was too high. But im curious to try again for very small dosage something like 40 - 50mg/wk.
Have you experienced those downside effects too with your nandrolone?
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