Maximus Native T: Gel vs Oral

[mcs]

Hoping Dr. Cam can chime in here.

65 y/o male.

1st phase of my recomp via a cut accomplished.

Was finally able to drop 30lbs and bodyfat from 26% to sub 10% with no loss in muscle mass.

Will be lean bulking with the goal to add 20lbs of LBM w/o adding bf via lean bulk

Enclomiphene update -18 mos.

• maxed @ 25mg/day
• taken on empty stomach with water in a.m.

observations:
- unstable levels -

• TT lows in the low 600s; highest 950
• FT: lows in the mid 80s; highest 135
• no variance in FSH/LH
• E2 low 29; high 34
• SHBG low 40s; high mid 60s

Don't know if it's the low carb, low fat diet, but T levels dropped to the lower trough levels as well as E2, SHBG, whereas TSH increased and T3 decreased.

I believe I've reached the ceiling with enclomiphene after 18 mos of trialing it. I also take Metformin for prediabetes/insulin resistance prevention and geroprotection, but I realize it can have an anti-anabolic effect as well as suppress IGF-1.

I am now wanting to know if adding oral or topical NT to my enclomiphene would get me to the next level of maintaining my low bf but mainly provide enough anabolism to add more LBM. Injectable T is not an option for me right now.

Since I'm on a low fat diet as part of my recomp, the NT gel would work better since there's no need to consume the 30g minimum of dietary fat. Exception with oral NT, if possible, would be to not take with fat and just titrate the dose to the desired serum level - but I don't know if that's feasible.

Would NT - oral or topical be able to suppress SHBG to allow FT to increase? Enclomiphene can only go so far in my case with respect to both TT and FT while suppressing IGF-1 and increasing to some degree SHBG, thus limiting anabolism.

Wouldn't topical NT have the same problems with inconsistent serum levels as Androgel and the other topical testosterone gels?

What levels for TT/FT can I expect on NT oral vs gel and how stable are serum levels when on the gel?

Only issue is whether E2 and SHBG will spike.

And as to the spike in DHT, I would counter with topical dutasteride to prevent alopecia.

Goal: to add 20lbs of LBM w/o adding bf via lean bulk + ↑ anabolism.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Both enclomiphene and metformin decrease IGF1

Metformin decrease VO2 max also.

I would switch to T injections at 125 mg per week, take creatine, and keep protein intake up.

 

[Cataceous]

If you switch to conventional TRT—including injections or topical gels—then there's little point in continuing with enclomiphene. Your HPTA will still end up suppressed. There are alternatives that keep things going. The most proven is testosterone nasal gel (TNG). Even without enclomiphene it permits continued HPTA function. When TNG is added to enclomiphene you should get a nice additive effect with your endogenous testosterone. I believe Maximus has demonstrated that some oral testosterone protocols that include enclomiphene yield continued HPTA operation. Oral testosterone is more suppressive than TNG, but enclomiphene overrides this to some degree. Higher testosterone with either method should lead to a decrease in SHBG. However, bear in mind that SHBG is not affecting free testosterone, and may only be problematic in other respects at higher levels, at least 50 nMol/L and possibly higher.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I am now wanting to know if adding oral or topical NT to my enclomiphene would get me to the next level of maintaining my low bf but mainly provide enough anabolism to add more LBM. Injectable T is not an option for me right now.

Yes, combining either of those with enclomiphene will result in more anabolism than you have now.

Since I'm on a low fat diet as part of my recomp, the NT gel would work better since there's no need to consume the 30g minimum of dietary fat. Exception with oral NT, if possible, would be to not take with fat and just titrate the dose to the desired serum level - but I don't know if that's feasible.

Absorption of the oral testosterone is decent fasted, good with a moderate amount of fat, best with alot of fat. Yes, you can compensate for the lower bioavailability of taking oral T with less fat by increasing the dose of oral T, to a degree.

Would NT - oral or topical be able to suppress SHBG to allow FT to increase? Enclomiphene can only go so far in my case with respect to both TT and FT while suppressing IGF-1 and increasing to some degree SHBG, thus limiting anabolism.

Adding oral or topical testosterone would increase your free T, but the mechanism is by adding more testosterone to your system faster, not by affecting SHBG. Thank you Cataceous for helping enlighten the world to the truth of SHBG.

Wouldn't topical NT have the same problems with inconsistent serum levels as Androgel and the other topical testosterone gels?

The fluctuating levels are not experienced by most people as a problem, as the way you feel from moment to moment often bears little relationship to your current serum level of hormones. This becomes more true as you adapt to a given protocol. Many of these effects are genomic and take time to manifest, lagging well after serum levels have increased, and similarly take time to dissappear after serum levels have decreased. One of the acute effects that high levels do sometimes cause is insomnia, in which case you'll be glad levels are lower overnight.

Also, your baseline level of testosterone when the exogenous T leaves your system is still being propped up somewhat by enclomiphene, so you will not have as low of a trough level as someone would taking oral or topical T alone.

What levels for TT/FT can I expect on NT oral vs gel and how stable are serum levels when on the gel?

In clinical research with men on Oral T + Enclomiphene, average peak total T levels were 1327 ng/dL and peak free T was 38.3 ng/dL when administered with 30 g fat. Peak levels when the drug was taken fasted were somewhat lower: 1099 ng/dL and 30.9 ng/dL respectively: https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/oral-trt

The sky is the limit with the gel, within reason. We can easily go as high as you need to go for symptom resolution by adjusting the dosage. The topical has a roughly 16 hr half-life. Stability will depend on whether you administer the topical only once daily or twice daily. Many people are quite satisfied with a single morning application.

Both enclomiphene and metformin decrease IGF1

Enclomiphene's reduction of serum IGF-1 is an artifact of reducing IGF binding proteins in the liver. GH drives muscle growth via IGF-1 produced locally in muscle tissue - serum IGF-1 has no relationship with IGF-1 within muscles. Consequently, men on enclomiphene build muscle just as you would expect given their elevated testosterone. More on this from IFBB pro and coach Paul Barnett:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

If you switch to conventional TRT—including injections or topical gels—then there's little point in continuing with enclomiphene. Your HPTA will still end up suppressed.

I mostly agree, but we do offer enclomiphene together with the topical gel, as it does seem to prevent some of the testicular atrophy. As I often say when arguing with madman about propionate, HPTA suppression exists on a spectrum - it's not an on/off switch. Close to zero LH is quite a different thing than zero LH, especially when it comes to the size of the testicles.

Personally though, if I were using topical testosterone, I would take it by itself without the enclomiphene.

I believe Maximus has demonstrated that some oral testosterone protocols that include enclomiphene yield continued HPTA operation. Oral testosterone is more suppressive than TNG, but enclomiphene overrides this to some degree.

The addition of enclomiphene doesn't override suppression only to a degree - it apparently overrides it completely, as LH and FSH levels were slightly higher on the protocol than at baseline. I know, it sounds crazy.

Disclaimer: I am employed by Maximus to represent them on social media.

 

[mcs]

Yes, combining either of those with enclomiphene will result in more anabolism than you have now.


Absorption of the oral testosterone is decent fasted, good with a moderate amount of fat, best with alot of fat. Yes, you can compensate for the lower bioavailability of taking oral T with less fat by increasing the dose of oral T, to a degree.


Adding oral or topical testosterone would increase your free T, but the mechanism is by adding more testosterone to your system faster, not by affecting SHBG. Thank you Cataceous for helping enlighten the world to the truth of SHBG.

The fluctuating levels are not experienced by most people as a problem, as the way you feel from moment to moment often bears little relationship to your current serum level of hormones. This becomes more true as you adapt to a given protocol. Many of these effects are genomic and take time to manifest, lagging well after serum levels have increased, and similarly take time to dissappear after serum levels have decreased. One of the acute effects that high levels do sometimes cause is insomnia, in which case you'll be glad levels are lower overnight.

Also, your baseline level of testosterone when the exogenous T leaves your system is still being propped up somewhat by enclomiphene, so you will not have as low of a trough level as someone would taking oral or topical T alone.


In clinical research with men on Oral T + Enclomiphene, average peak total T levels were 1327 ng/dL and peak free T was 38.3 ng/dL when administered with 30 g fat. Peak levels when the drug was taken fasted were somewhat lower: 1099 ng/dL and 30.9 ng/dL respectively: https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/oral-trt

The sky is the limit with the gel, within reason. We can easily go as high as you need to go for symptom resolution by adjusting the dosage. The topical has a roughly 16 hr half-life. Stability will depend on whether you administer the topical only once daily or twice daily. Many people are quite satisfied with a single morning application.


Enclomiphene's reduction of serum IGF-1 is an artifact of reducing IGF binding proteins in the liver. GH drives muscle growth via IGF-1 produced locally in muscle tissue - serum IGF-1 has no relationship with IGF-1 within muscles. Consequently, men on enclomiphene build muscle just as you would expect given their elevated testosterone. More on this from IFBB pro and coach Paul Barnett:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

I mostly agree, but we do offer enclomiphene together with the topical gel, as it does seem to prevent some of the testicular atrophy. As I often say when arguing with madman about propionate, HPTA suppression exists on a spectrum - it's not an on/off switch. Close to zero LH is quite a different thing than zero LH, especially when it comes to the size of the testicles.

Personally though, if I were using topical testosterone, I would take it by itself without the enclomiphene.


The addition of enclomiphene doesn't override suppression only to a degree - it apparently overrides it completely, as LH and FSH levels were slightly higher on the protocol than at baseline. I know, it sounds crazy.

Disclaimer: I am employed by Maximus to represent them on social media.

Thanks. As with any compound, the only way to know how I will respond is to try it, just as with the enclomiphene. It took greater than 6 mos. to fully evaluate its effects. And if the gel fails to improve me any further, I have the enclomiphene as my baseline default.