Lowering Test Cyp Dosage - Can't Sleep And Irritated

[Mastodont]

Also, further proof, when injecting 250mg of sustanon, the estradiol symptoms strike around day 3, when prop and phenylprop drop vane off. Have tested estradiol and it is not aromatizing at the same rate it does on smaller doses, that amount of sustanon takes t levels above 2500 briefly. So the T/E ratio seems meaningful at least in my case, it seems like estradiol can be twice the upper limit as long as testosterone levels are also supraphysiological, and there is no poor libido or mood issues present. But then again even slightly elevated e2 on t levels that mimick natural are bad, you feel frail, emotional, unmotivated and pissed off. Have only tried ed pins with test e and felt pretty good, but symptoms started creeping up eventually, probably due to estradiol cumulation, a very tiny addition of AI for that protocol might do the trick, did not try it back then as i was on the no AI ever never hype train back then.

 

[granger]

Also, further proof, when injecting 250mg of sustanon, the estradiol symptoms strike around day 3, when prop and phenylprop drop vane off. Have tested estradiol and it is not aromatizing at the same rate it does on smaller doses, that amount of sustanon takes t levels above 2500 briefly. So the T/E ratio seems meaningful at least in my case, it seems like estradiol can be twice the upper limit as long as testosterone levels are also supraphysiological, and there is no poor libido or mood issues present. But then again even slightly elevated e2 on t levels that mimick natural are bad, you feel frail, emotional, unmotivated and pissed off. Have only tried ed pins with test e and felt pretty good, but symptoms started creeping up eventually, probably due to estradiol cumulation, a very tiny addition of AI for that protocol might do the trick, did not try it back then as i was on the no AI ever never hype train back then.

again thats FAR from proof.. just get a prolactin test aswell gets confused ALOT as guys think the same as you... AI are HORRIBLE for you so want to stay far away from that crap, ESP when its possible prolactin(even if u feel its a small chance). def get a prolactin test when u feel ok and when you feel worse and just SEE what it says...

good luck!

 

[Mastodont]

again thats FAR from proof.. just get a prolactin test aswell gets confused ALOT as guys think the same as you... AI are HORRIBLE for you so want to stay far away from that crap, ESP when its possible prolactin(even if u feel its a small chance). def get a prolactin test when u feel ok and when you feel worse and just SEE what it says...

good luck!

ok thanks for the tip, can you tell me a little about the mechanism by which testosterone injection causes a delayed rise in prolactin, and IF prolactin is causing the symptoms why does more testosterone equal less symptoms? Also you are probably aware that raised estradiol can contribute to prolactin rise by means of inhibiting dopaminergic activity?

 

[Gman86]

ok thanks for the tip, can you tell me a little about the mechanism by which testosterone injection causes a delayed rise in prolactin, and IF prolactin is causing the symptoms why does more testosterone equal less symptoms?

Could be an enzyme related thing. Exogenous testosterone doesn’t need to be converted into anything by any enzymes. The more test u inject, the higher ur test levels are gonna be, in a linear/ steady fashion.

Estrogen is one of the main things in the male body that stimulates the pituitary gland to produce prolactin. Aka a lot of our prolactin production is regulated by how much estrogen we have in our system. Usually the more estrogen, the more prolactin, and vice versa. And estrogen comes mostly from the conversion of whatever testosterone we have in our body. That conversion requires enzymes to turn testosterone into estrogen. Thing is, there’s not an unlimited amount of these enzymes in our bodies. So estrogen doesn’t usually increase linearly, like testosterone levels will when exogenous testosterone is administered. So theoretically, u could continue increasing ur test levels, and ur estrogen levels may climb, but not linearly like ur test levels will, and therefore ur prolactin levels may be limited to how high they can climb as well. This situation could theoretically lead to an improved test to estrogen/ prolactin ratio. Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense lol

 

[granger]

Testosterone-replacement stimulated hyperprolactinaemia | BES2004 | 23rd Joint Meeting of the British Endocrine Societies with the European Federation of Endocrine Societies | Endocrine Abstracts

www.endocrine-abstracts.org

does not seem to be KNOWN why it happens, just that it does, although there are theories. anyway, again, i think its important to understand things but perhaps your over intellectualizing something that no one here REALLY knows ie full endocrine system is ULTRA complex and we pretend we get it and control it with the very few tools we have.

if get it checked when feel bad and when feel good and see difference.

also keep in mind testosterone can mask ALOT of things from mental illness to physical maladies. just like someone who takes opiates may feel horrible day after they take an opiate and that only gets worse the longer that take it may get sensitive to pain etc. when injecting an ester often the likelihood of HUGE variance in either testosterone or E is less likely, we are talking about multi day half lives and infact it possible could be the PEAK testosterone actually causing the issue but of course may be many things at once not T or E themselves..

and like opiates Testosterone plays a roll in dopamine and sleep aswell, so possible your having withdrawal type symptoms...

anyway, just offering something folks far more knowledgeable and experienced than me have said... "many guys think they have high E symptoms but its prolactin". so may be something to test and see. discussing how or why wont help as none of us are endos.


anyway, let us know when get bloods as will be interesting to see the E and prolactin and test levels!

hows ur other bloodwork like ferritin and iron and CBC?

also possible is cortisol levels...

 

[Mastodont]

Could be an enzyme related thing. Exogenous testosterone doesn’t need to be converted into anything by any enzymes. The more test u inject, the higher ur test levels are gonna be, in a linear/ steady fashion.

Estrogen is one of the main things in the male body that stimulates the pituitary gland to produce prolactin. Aka a lot of our prolactin production is regulated by how much estrogen we have in our system. Usually the more estrogen, the more prolactin, and vice versa. And estrogen comes mostly from the conversion of whatever testosterone we have in our body. That conversion requires enzymes to turn testosterone into estrogen. Thing is, there’s not an unlimited amount of these enzymes in our bodies. So estrogen doesn’t usually increase linearly, like testosterone levels will when exogenous testosterone is administered. So theoretically, u could continue increasing ur test levels, and ur estrogen levels may climb, but not linearly like ur test levels will, and therefore ur prolactin levels may be limited to how high they can climb as well. This situation could theoretically lead to an improved test to estrogen/ prolactin ratio. Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense lol

This is what i've been trying to say, i dont see turning to prolactin very useful when 99% sure it comes from too much estradiol in the system, probably many guys are able to blunt those effects by adding more t which makes the ratios better. If that is detrimental in the long run who knows, could be you are feeling balanced but still hurting yourself.

 

[Mastodont]

something that no one here REALLY knows ie full endocrine system is ULTRA complex and we pretend we get it

The link you provided mentioned trt induced estradiol as the likely mechanism as well. It also makes sense, feedback loop gone etc.

when injecting an ester often the likelihood of HUGE variance in either testosterone or E is less likely, we are talking about multi day half lives

Well, this is why i am saying it's related to E2, on the injection day you have less since none is floating around from the days before.

anyway, let us know when get bloods as will be interesting to see the E and prolactin and test levels!

hows ur other bloodwork like ferritin and iron and CBC?

I will for sure check it, even though i will not be starting a medication for it, i would rather control estradiol if and when both are elevated, that would also be a nice trial to prove that in fact the excess PRL comes from the e2. I am really not in favour of AIs though and would probably go to dailies first. I do wonder if age plays a role in e2 and or prolactin formation, personally when i was younger bolus doses of T just rode out and you pretty much felt good all the time even though for sure(almost) T/E ratio did not remain static.

My ferritin drops on trt, but not super low, TfR etc normal, hematocrit creeps up on trt, did not on dailies or low doses.

Prolactin – Man's Friend or Foe? - The Men’s Health Clinic

Prolactin is a hormone that is well known for its role in promoting breast milk production. This is particularly true for females, where we see...

themenshealthclinic.co.uk

 

[Cataceous]

...
Well, this is why i am saying it's related to E2, on the injection day you have less since none is floating around from the days before.
...

This has to be an oversimplification at best, because the half-life of estradiol in plasma is less than two hours. A better case might be made for effects on aromatase, which presumably occur over a longer time frame. It appears that androgens increase aromatase expression, while estrogens have the opposite effect. This complexity may be more significant in dynamic environments. The static dose-response experiments show a pretty linear response of estradiol production to increasing testosterone doses, followed by a region of increasing saturation, with decreasing additional production per unit of dose increase.

 

[granger]

they dont actually know what causes elevated prolactin in men.. only THEORY... at any rate its possible cause, and best to have it tested.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

This has to be an oversimplification at best, because the half-life of estradiol in plasma is less than two hours. A better case might be made for effects on aromatase, which presumably occur over a longer time frame. It appears that androgens increase aromatase expression, while estrogens have the opposite effect. This complexity may be more significant in dynamic environments. The static dose-response experiments show a pretty linear response of estradiol production to increasing testosterone doses, followed by a region of increasing saturation, with decreasing additional production per unit of dose increase.

Have we seen any data from people reporting T and E2 levels at different time points relative to dosing? (trough, peak, mid)? I know you've done some testing like that yourself with prop and prop blends. Does your ratio remain constant at all times or is there any variation?

 

[Seagal]

Have we seen any data from people reporting T and E2 levels at different time points relative to dosing? (trough, peak, mid)? I know you've done some testing like that yourself with prop and prop blends. Does your ratio remain constant at all times or is there any variation?

Thread 'Controlling the polycythemia effect associated with TRT' Controlling the polycythemia effect associated with TRT

 

[Cataceous]

Have we seen any data from people reporting T and E2 levels at different time points relative to dosing? (trough, peak, mid)? I know you've done some testing like that yourself with prop and prop blends. Does your ratio remain constant at all times or is there any variation?

I'm not sure I have enough data to say anything definitive. My estradiol measurements were more consistent with frequent injections of enanthate, such that, for example, I could say with reasonable certainty that hCG use increases the E2/T ratio. However, with a propionate blend the measurements are more variable. There's some indication that estradiol lags testosterone, such that E2/T is generally smaller at peak serum testosterone than at the trough. My highest recorded E2/T, >1%, occurred at trough on a propionate-only protocol.

 

[Gman86]

I'm not sure I have enough data to say anything definitive. My estradiol measurements were more consistent with frequent injections of enanthate, such that, for example, I could say with reasonable certainty that hCG use increases the E2/T ratio. However, with a propionate blend the measurements are more variable. There's some indication that estradiol lags testosterone, such that E2/T is generally smaller at peak serum testosterone than at the trough. My highest recorded E2/T, >1%, occurred at trough on a propionate-only protocol.

I think there’s definitely something to this “E2 lag” theory/ concept. My highest E2 to test ratio was on prop as well. I’ve heard that estrogen takes longer to rise and fall, compared to test. That’s what seemed to happen to me while on prop. I assume my test levels rose significantly, consequently E2 rose significantly as well, then my test levels dropped by the time I had labs done, while E2 remained elevated, and hadn’t had a chance to drop to match my lower test levels yet. Or something along those lines. Labs just showed E2 much much higher than I expected, and had seen in the past, with similar test levels while on test cyp. Those are the facts. The rest is speculation. But this is the best assumption I have, of what happened, to date.

 

[Mastodont]

This has to be an oversimplification at best, because the half-life of estradiol in plasma is less than two hours. A better case might be made for effects on aromatase, which presumably occur over a longer time frame. It appears that androgens increase aromatase expression, while estrogens have the opposite effect. This complexity may be more significant in dynamic environments. The static dose-response experiments show a pretty linear response of estradiol production to increasing testosterone doses, followed by a region of increasing saturation, with decreasing additional production per unit of dose increase.

fair enough, but the lag effect might be significant for some i guess, one option is also that on the first day estradiol is welcome and by the second saturation of receptors would not be needed but e2 keeps on getting produced in quite similar rate even though testosterone gets released less, at some point the T release gets to the region where e2 is produced less in proportion to T mg and the ratio is more balanced for the person?

Right now i am at day 6 after 125mg dose of test e, since yesterday i have been getting more libido but otherwise feels like hypogonadal symptoms are creeping up, more tired etc...

 

[Mastodont]

@Cataceous does dht lag behind as well, i guess in addition to prolactin DHT should be tracked as well when solving issues on protocols, where i live it's really expensive though.

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous does dht lag behind as well, i guess in addition to prolactin DHT should be tracked as well when solving issues on protocols, where i live it's really expensive though.

Going strictly by half-lives, DHT is between testosterone and estradiol. Wiki says the elimination half-life is 53 minutes. This doesn't imply a very big delay unless there are indirect effects via 5α reductase.

 

[Stpfan]

ANOTHER QUICK UPDATE

Had cardiologist appointment yesterday July 8. New doctor. His exact words... you are way too young and too good of shape for Erectile Dysfunction. I will do my best for you but I believe this is hormone related. He ordered

CT Coronary Calcium test (first doctor to ever order one).
Lipid Profile
Lipoprotein (a)
Echocardiogram

He said if everything checks ok with the lab tests. No need for a Echocardiogram. Just disregard the Echocardiogram.


I had a session with a new Endocrinologist today (July 9). He said after 5 years of being on Test Cyp and still having Erectile Dysfunction... I can assure you... I will be your last doctor to see. I guarantee I will fix this. Your insurance may not cover some of the drugs I will prescribe... but your problem will be solved. (Yes, I like his confidence. But... I'm still preparing for another doctor failure.)

He said... I would like to see what your body produces naturally (hormone wise.) But I'm not going to make you go through all that... (coming off of Test Cyp.) Here are the labs I have ordered for you.

Total Testosterone
FSH
LH
DHEA Sulfate
Prolactin
Estradiol LCMS
Progesterone LCMS
IGF-1
Cortisol Random
CBC
Comp. Metabolic Panel
Hemoglobin A1c
Lipid Panel
T4 Free
TSH
Vitamin B12
Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy

From our 10 minute conversation he told me he doesn't believe in Free Testosterone or Bioavailable Testosterone markers. He said the tests aren't accurate enough. Too many flaws in the test. Oddly he didn't order an SHBG. He did say it is important but apparently not on the initial examination???

We continued to have the conversation... I told him... you know how your stomach growls at you and your immediate animal instinct is to make something to eat? I mean... it's automatic right? You're hungry... you eat. There's no in between... in guessing if you're hungry or not. When you see an attractive girl with big boobs... an amazing body... and you don't desire her?? You don't sit there and debate if you want her? You go and get it! And if you don't... there's something very wrong with you. Well... that's where I'm at. I have no interest in sex. I have no interest in the act. When the sh## don't work... it don't work. But in all reality... it should work! The doctor responded... I have never heard of anyone describe it the way you just did. But I 100% get your point. He said get your labs done... and see me in about 2 weeks.

Like I said men... giving this Endo a chance... we'll see what happens.

 

[granger]

forsure thats good confidence.

interesting said wants to see what ur body produces but obv ur shut down? did he say a couple weeks after last injection or anything?

i suppose maybe just wants to see if have good DHEA and have SOME LH or something left?

but did this get worse AFTER starting TRT?

 

[Stpfan]

Total Testosterone 863 ng/dL (Normal Range 175-781 ng/dL)
FSH <0.2 mlU/mL (Normal Range 1.3-19.3 mlU/mL)
LH <0.2 mlU/mL (Normal Range 1.5-9.3 mlU/mL)
DHEA Sulfate 855 ng/mL (Normal Range 700-5,690 ng/mL)
Prolactin 8.8 ng/mL (Normal Range <13.1 ng/mL)
Estradiol LCMS STILL WAITING ON RESULTS
Progesterone LCMS <31 ng/dL (Normal Range 32-332 ng/dL)
IGF-1 139 ng/mL (Normal Range 81-263 ng/mL)
IGF-1 Lab From 3/3/2020 169 ng/mL (Normal Range 58-219 ng/mL) COMPARISON
Cortisol Random 4.6 ug/dL (Normal Range 4.3-22.4 ug/dL)
TSH 2.83 ulU/mL (Normal Range 0.45-5.33 ulU/mL)
T4 Free 1.23 ng/dL (Normal Range 0.61-1.44 ng/dL)
Vitamin B12 596 pg/mL (Normal Range 180-810 pg/mL)
Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy 37 ng/dL (Normal Range >20 ng/dL)

Hemoglobin A1c
Glycated Hemoglobin 5.1% (Normal Range <5.7%)
Estimated Average Glucose 100 mg/dL (Normal Range <117 mg/dL)
A1C Interpretation: Normal

CBC
WBC Count 6.5 K/uL (Normal Range 3.8/10.6 K/uL)
RBC Count 5.71 M/uL (Normal Range 4.40/6.00 M/uL)
Hemoglobin 16.4 g/dL (Normal Range 13.5-17.0 g/dL)
Hematocrit 49.0% (Normal Range 41.0-53.0%)
MCV 85.9 fl (Normal Range 80-100 fl)
MCH 28.8 pg (Normal Range 26-34 pg)
MCHC 33.5 g/dL (Normal Range 31-37 g/dL)
RDW 15.7% (Normal Range <14.5%)
Platelet Count 230 K/uL (Normal Range 150-450 K/uL)

Comp. Metabolic Panel
Glucose 87 mg/dL (Normal Range 60-99 mg/dL)
Sodium 137 mmol/L (Normal Range 135-145 mmol/L)
Potassium 4.3 mmol/L (Normal Range 3.5-5 mmol/L)
Chloride 102 mmol/L (Normal Range 98-111 mol/L)
Carbon Dioxide 26 mmol/L (Normal Range 21-35 mmol/L)
Anion Gap 9 (Normal Range 3-13)
Blood Urea Nitrogen 29 mg/dL (Normal Range 10-25 mg/dL) ABNORMAL
Creatinine 1.10 mg/dL (Normal Range <1.28 mg/dL)
AST/SGOT 38 lU/L (Normal Range <35 lU/L) ABNORMAL
ALT/SGPT 40 lU/L (Normal Range <52 lU/L)
Alkaline Phosphatase 54 lU/L (Normal Range 40-140 lU/L)
Bilirubin 0.9 mg/dL (Normal Range <1.2 mg/dL)
Calcium 9.1 mg/dL (Normal Range 8.2-10.2 mg/dL)
Protein Total 7.3 g/dL (Normal Range 6.0-8.3 g/dL)
Albumin 4.6 g/dL (Normal Range 3.7-4.8 g/dL)
Globulin 2.7 g/dL (Normal Range 1.7-3.6 g/dL)
A/G Ratio 1.7 (Normal Range 0.9-1.8)
Corrected Calcium 9.0 mg/dL (Normal Range 8.7-10.1 mg/dL)
eGFR 84 (Normal Range >60mL/min/1.73m2)

Lipid Panel
Cholesterol 150 mg/dL (Normal Range <200 mg/dL)
Triglyceride 77 mg/dL (Normal Range <200 mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol 41 mg/dL (Normal Range >40 mg/dL)
LDL Cholesterol 94 mg/dL (Normal Range <130 mg/dL)
VLDL 15
Non HDL Cholesterol 109 mg/dL (Normal Range - Desirable <130 mg/dL)

Lipoprotein (a) 99 mg/dL (Normal Range 0-30 mg/dL) VERY HIGH

CT Coronary Calcium Test - WAITING ON RESULTS
Echocardiogram - Tomorrow Morning

Hey gang! Trying to give a quick update on everything. I had few things that came back unusual. The Lipoprotein (a) test came back extremely elevated. Still waiting on the CT Coronary Calcium Test results. My cardiologist told me please do the Echocardiogram. Luckily there was an opening tomorrow morning for that test. He basically said... let me review all test results and I will follow up with you.

I had my 2nd appointment with my new Endocrinologist today. For some odd reason the Estradiol LCMS test never came back yet? Crazy. The doctor reviewed the labs and said... these are fantastic labs. I truly don't see where the problem is. But I want you to do something for me? I said sure. I want you to take Clomid 50mg but only half a pill everyday when you wake up. I said doctor with all due respect I'm not quitting Test Cyp injections. He said I never told you to quit. I have an idea.... let's see how your brain/mood responds by taking your current 85mg-87mg weekly Test Cyp and add only 25 mg of Clomid. (So half of a 50mg pill.) When you wake up. Do this for 2 months. Comeback and tell me how you feel. I said interesting. While ever other Endocrinologist told me to quit Test Cyp Injections cold... and then take Clomid. He's the 1st doctor to say take the Clomid while taking Test Cyp. Maybe a few could chime in and tell me why a doctor would suggest this? Always curious on posters opinions.

As for my current overall feeling? I do feel "light"/quick. My mind has been more upbeat. As in desiring sex? Below normal. (This needs to change.) I've had a few gym sessions.. 7 total and all I can say is... the first 3 sessions the strength was normal. The last 4 sessions... not as strong as I once felt. The recovery time is super slow in my opinion. Sexually? I can't even get a 1 millisecond erection recovering from the gym. Why is that?? I don't get it? Fatigue? How do you change it? Free Testosterone marker? I like to workout hard at the gym. And I seem very tired the next day after a workout. You could probably live on this protocol with a light workout... maybe cardio? 20-30 mins but not a heavy gym session. 1hr 1hr/15min+ Perhaps I expect too much out of myself? The goal is sexual performance... and libido. I'm hoping to feel better in that area. I'll keep you posted if this Clomid works. As always... your comments are appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Cataceous]

... While ever other Endocrinologist told me to quit Test Cyp Injections cold... and then take Clomid. He's the 1st doctor to say take the Clomid while taking Test Cyp. Maybe a few could chime in and tell me why a doctor would suggest this? Always curious on posters opinions.
...

It's unclear what he's thinking. Taking Clomid with TRT may increase estrogenic activity via the zuclomiphene, which could cause some effects, good or bad. However, you're unlikely to see a reversal of HPTA suppression, i.e. a recovery of LH/FSH production.

To me your lab results look typical for someone using somewhat more testosterone than is appropriate for his physiology. You've got suppressed progesterone, imbalanced lipids, and above-average HGB/HCT. It seems likely that SHBG is also still suppressed. In my personal experience, the combination of excess testosterone and HPTA suppression is a recipe for sexual malfunction. While many men have no such issues, I believe a nontrivial number do experience such side effects.