Lab Results - Injection Only/No Cream

[TLawyer]

All:

My current protocol:

Testosterone cypionate - 200 mg/ml - 0.10 ml daily
HCG - 150 IU daily
Testosterone cream 50 mg/ml - 1 click daily
Anastrozole – 0.125 mg twice per week

About 90 days later, here are my labs:

Total Testosterone: >1500 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): >50 pg/ml
DHT: 144 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 310.3 ug/dl
TSH: 1.520 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 11.7 ng/ml
PSA: 1.5 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 55.1 pg/ml
SHBG: 11.5 nmol/L

I went for these labs about 2 hours after applying the cream. Defy recommended I get labs after skipping my cream application to see where I would be with injections only. I ended up skipping about a week actually (and had stopped the AI for about 2 weeks at the time of the labs), and here are the results:

Total Testosterone: 695 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): 20.8 pg/ml
DHT: 48 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 194 ug/dl
TSH: 1.430 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 12.3 ng/ml
PSA: 1.2 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 49.9 pg/ml
SHBG: 13.5 nmol/L

I felt a little more "level" without the cream. I'd be tempted to try dropping the cream, although I understand that my DHT level may not be great for libido (which I'd like to improve), but the E2 still looks a bit on the higher end. I am already on daily injections and I don't think I'd want to lower my testosterone dose to try and lower my E2. My thought it that I may be stuck with an AI to try and get my E2 down, either to get it in the 20-30 range or get the T/E2 ratio of 20:1 or so. Just seems a touch too high based on the above numbers.

Thoughts?

 

[Cataceous]

If you didn't have the DHT for corroboration I might wonder if the cream contaminated the blood draw site for the first lab test. Otherwise it's hard to understand why testosterone seems to be affected so much by only 12.5 mg—assuming one click is 0.25 mL. If absorption efficiency is 10% then it should be insignificant next to the 14 mg testosterone you're injecting.

I've experimented with cream on a TRT protocol and never had consistent benefits—just a bump at the beginning, which could be matched by a boost in only testosterone. Even though my DHT tends to run around the bottom of the range, boosting it doesn't do much for me, at least subjectively.

 

[Tman]

All:

My current protocol:

Testosterone cypionate - 200 mg/ml - 0.10 ml daily
HCG - 150 IU daily
Testosterone cream 50 mg/ml - 1 click daily
Anastrozole – 0.125 mg twice per week

About 90 days later, here are my labs:

Total Testosterone: >1500 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): >50 pg/ml
DHT: 144 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 310.3 ug/dl
TSH: 1.520 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 11.7 ng/ml
PSA: 1.5 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 55.1 pg/ml
SHBG: 11.5 nmol/L

I went for these labs about 2 hours after applying the cream. Defy recommended I get labs after skipping my cream application to see where I would be with injections only. I ended up skipping about a week actually (and had stopped the AI for about 2 weeks at the time of the labs), and here are the results:

Total Testosterone: 695 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): 20.8 pg/ml
DHT: 48 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 194 ug/dl
TSH: 1.430 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 12.3 ng/ml
PSA: 1.2 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 49.9 pg/ml
SHBG: 13.5 nmol/L

I felt a little more "level" without the cream. I'd be tempted to try dropping the cream, although I understand that my DHT level may not be great for libido (which I'd like to improve), but the E2 still looks a bit on the higher end. I am already on daily injections and I don't think I'd want to lower my testosterone dose to try and lower my E2. My thought it that I may be stuck with an AI to try and get my E2 down, either to get it in the 20-30 range or get the T/E2 ratio of 20:1 or so. Just seems a touch too high based on the above numbers.

Thoughts?

Here's the real question...how do you feel?

 

[Tman]

Here's the real question...how do you feel?

12.5 mg cream to scrotum results in avg t increase of 400ish per the research on cream dosages.

 

[TLawyer]

12.5 mg cream to scrotum results in avg t increase of 400ish per the research on cream dosages.

Interesting. Given that my last labs with the cream had my average total t up to at least 1,500 (the highest the scale allowed, so could have been higher), and my total t with injections only is about 700, that means the cream gave me a boost of at least 800.

 

[TLawyer]

Here's the real question...how do you feel?

I feel ok. I could do with a better libido, although some days it seems like that is improving. I'm not thrilled with the idea of running my levels that high, and somewhat concerned about hair loss given the level of my DHT on the cream (I stopped Propecia about 6 months ago before starting TRT, so I'm not sure what I should expect on the hair loss front in the next year or so even without TRT). I've actually tried to take half a click once in the morning and once at night for the past few days, and that feels a little better (a little more level). It take me a little bit longer to orgasm since I started TRT (maybe a minute or two longer) which isn't the end of the world, but noticeable to me (and I'd prefer that not to the case). My main issue may be in the head since I had a total t of 420 about 2 and a half years ago and felt good, so I just wonder whether the issues that I was experiencing was really related to T or just a rough patch at work, etc., since just before I started T I tested with a total t test of 380. So that puts me tinkering on whether I should try a restart and see how I feel then now that I have a comparison.

 

[Gunga]

All:

My current protocol:

Testosterone cypionate - 200 mg/ml - 0.10 ml daily
HCG - 150 IU daily
Testosterone cream 50 mg/ml - 1 click daily
Anastrozole – 0.125 mg twice per week

About 90 days later, here are my labs:

Total Testosterone: >1500 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): >50 pg/ml
DHT: 144 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 310.3 ug/dl
TSH: 1.520 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 11.7 ng/ml
PSA: 1.5 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 55.1 pg/ml
SHBG: 11.5 nmol/L

I went for these labs about 2 hours after applying the cream. Defy recommended I get labs after skipping my cream application to see where I would be with injections only. I ended up skipping about a week actually (and had stopped the AI for about 2 weeks at the time of the labs), and here are the results:

Total Testosterone: 695 ng/dl
Free Testosterone (Direct): 20.8 pg/ml
DHT: 48 ng/dl
DHEA - Sulfate: 194 ug/dl
TSH: 1.430 ulU/ml
Prolactin: 12.3 ng/ml
PSA: 1.2 ng/ml
Estradiol (Sensitive): 49.9 pg/ml
SHBG: 13.5 nmol/L

I felt a little more "level" without the cream. I'd be tempted to try dropping the cream, although I understand that my DHT level may not be great for libido (which I'd like to improve), but the E2 still looks a bit on the higher end. I am already on daily injections and I don't think I'd want to lower my testosterone dose to try and lower my E2. My thought it that I may be stuck with an AI to try and get my E2 down, either to get it in the 20-30 range or get the T/E2 ratio of 20:1 or so. Just seems a touch too high based on the above numbers.

Thoughts?

You have a very similar protocol to me. IMHO If you’re looking to keep the cream I’d significantly reduce the injection dose. I’m doing 2 clicks of the 100 mg/ml cream and .05ml test cyp daily. After 6 hours post cream and injection this brings me to :
1282 Total Test
38 Free T
41 sensitive E2.

I tested trough levels this morning and will report back for as a comparison.

 

[TLawyer]

You have a very similar protocol to me. IMHO If you’re looking to keep the cream I’d significantly reduce the injection dose. I’m doing 2 clicks of the 100 mg/ml cream and .05ml test cyp daily. After 6 hours post cream and injection this brings me to :
1282 Total Test
38 Free T
41 sensitive E2.

I tested trough levels this morning and will report back for as a comparison.

That would be great. How do you feel on your protocol? Looks like your cream application is higher than mine (I'm only 12.5 mg per day, you're 50 mg per day, unless my math is wrong), but your injections levels are half of mine. Do you also use HCG?

 

[Gunga]

That would be great. How do you feel on your protocol? Looks like your cream application is higher than mine (I'm only 12.5 mg per day, you're 50 mg per day, unless my math is wrong), but your injections levels are half of mine. Do you also use HCG?

You are correct. My cream levels is 50 mg per day. Might be a bit too much but I’m going to wait for Dr Saya’s opinion at my next consult in July. I’ve yet to test DHT with cream but my baseline was 39. And yes I do HCG 250 iu twice weekly. I know the dose is low but it gives my balls just enough of a slap vs injecting lower levels daily. I’m contemplating reducing injection dose even more to .04ml daily to hopefully stop the AI and reduce my hematocrit which has been creeping up since thus change. DHT increase has been a game changer for me when looking at mood, sexual function, body composition.