Is HCG and DHT a good combo?

[Rock H. Johnson]

No joint issues? Obv ur using a very low dose. I’ve just heard a lot of stories about stanozolol effecting joints. But even when others use low doses, it’s still higher than 2mg/ day

Yes, no issueas whatsoever, drying out joints happens when you go above like 15-20mg a day...that is the amount which crashed my E2. So I will not go beyond 3x2mg ED.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Just wondering because it’s one of two DHT derivatives I can get legally prescribed. The other being Winstrol. But after researching both, I’d feel more comfortable adding a very low dose of oxandrolone to my protocol over Winstrol.

I would try both with a nice pause in between as they are very AI like and with your protocol of Nandrolone and low E2, I would really be careful how much you would take. Its a bit of a tightrope with Test and HCG.....but I definitely do not disagree taking it with Nandrolone, it makes sense to me.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Which [SARMS]? I met a guy that told me he had long lasting side effects from SARM use, obviously it was sexual related, otherwise it’s easy to disclose

Ive read that Ostarine is the safest? I’ve also seen a transdermal Androstenedione, which is a DHT precursor, if you have any info on that
...

Yes, I was thinking of ostarine at a low dose. But otherwise I don't know too much about them. You'd need to do your homework with these.

 

[DS3]

Even at 5-10mg/ day? I know it will at higher doses, but I’ve never seen one study done with low dose, and I’ve never seen any anecdotes from someone using 5-10mg/ day, and then getting their lipids pulled. How do we know Oxandrolone would wreck lipids at say 5-10mg/ day?

With an 8-week course of 20 mg per day these participants had a 31.8 % reduction in HDL and a 41.2 % increase in LDL. Any 17 alpha-alkylated steroid at any dosage will have a negative effect on HDL and LDL. The negative impact will be positively correlated with the dosage.

So, will 10 mg per day impact lipids? No question. To what degree? Perhaps a ~15-20% reduction in HDL and a ~20-25% increase in LDL. Not good long-term. Prove me wrong.

The effects of an anabolic agent on body composition and pulmonary function in tetraplegia: a pilot study - Spinal Cord

Prospective repeated-measures longitudinal study. To determine if an 8-week course of an oral anabolic steroid can positively effect body composition or pulmonary function in healthy individuals with chronic tetraplegia. United States. Oxandrolone (20 mg per day) was administered for 8 weeks to...

www.nature.com

 

[Gman86]

With an 8-week course of 20 mg per day these participants had a 31.8 % reduction in HDL and a 41.2 % increase in LDL. Any oral steroid at any dosage will have a negative effect on HDL and LDL. The negative impact will be positively correlated with the dosage.

So, will 10 mg per day impact lipids? No question. To what degree? Perhaps a ~15-20% reduction in HDL and a ~20-25% increase in LDL. Not good long-term. Prove me wrong.

The effects of an anabolic agent on body composition and pulmonary function in tetraplegia: a pilot study - Spinal Cord

Prospective repeated-measures longitudinal study. To determine if an 8-week course of an oral anabolic steroid can positively effect body composition or pulmonary function in healthy individuals with chronic tetraplegia. United States. Oxandrolone (20 mg per day) was administered for 8 weeks to...

www.nature.com

Ya there’s no doubt that even low dose orals will negatively effect lipids. It’s just a balancing act between pros and cons. And those pros and cons are obviously very individual, depending on each of our goals

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

With an 8-week course of 20 mg per day these participants had a 31.8 % reduction in HDL and a 41.2 % increase in LDL. Any oral steroid at any dosage will have a negative effect on HDL and LDL. The negative impact will be positively correlated with the dosage.

So, will 10 mg per day impact lipids? No question. To what degree? Perhaps a ~15-20% reduction in HDL and a ~20-25% increase in LDL. Not good long-term. Prove me wrong.

The effects of an anabolic agent on body composition and pulmonary function in tetraplegia: a pilot study - Spinal Cord

Prospective repeated-measures longitudinal study. To determine if an 8-week course of an oral anabolic steroid can positively effect body composition or pulmonary function in healthy individuals with chronic tetraplegia. United States. Oxandrolone (20 mg per day) was administered for 8 weeks to...

www.nature.com

I agree with you so dosage should be lower for TRT but I know the effects on lipid results are not as linear as you discribe them here. There is a treshold which is dosage dependant.

 

[DS3]

I agree with you so dosage should be lower for TRT but I know the effects on lipid results are not as linear as you discribe them here. There is a treshold which is dosage dependant.

Is that a logical inference or evidence-based reasoning?

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Is that a logical inference or evidence-based reasoning?

I am looking for the paper, I will post when I have found it...

 

[WhatSayYou89]

I'm not sure where you live, but I have had success from combining Proviron with HCG (while taking exogenous T). It certainly helps with estrogenic issues that HCG can cause. I had to discontinue because Proviron causes me GI distress. However, synthetic DHT should have similar effects. Worth a try.

Does defy medical offer proviron? What other synthetic DHT options are there?

 

[Gman86]

Does defy medical offer proviron? What other synthetic DHT options are there?

I don’t think Proviron is legal in the u.s. Pretty sure Defy can only prescribe Oxandrolone and stanozolol

 

[DS3]

I don’t think Proviron is legal in the u.s. Pretty sure Defy can only prescribe Oxandrolone and stanozolol

Proviron is sitting on the 'waiting FDA approval' list. It will likely never get through.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

I don’t think Proviron is legal in the u.s. Pretty sure Defy can only prescribe Oxandrolone and stanozolol

Well heck.

Ok, please correct me if I’m wrong here. Anyone, not just Gman.

So testosterone can be turned into e2 or DHT.

A DHT derivative medication cannot be turned into testosterone or e2 but DHT can lower e2 or at least reduce the side effects of e2.

So trying to get a perfect test/e2/DHT level is like winning the dam lottery in terms of chances when you’re doing this through testosterone (injections/Scotal cream application) because the chain reaction test has on the other two.

So if I take DHT medication it will most likely cause low e2 issues. If I add testosterone into the mix to try to increase e2 levels it could increase DHT levels more than what I want.

So what options are left. Drop the test, then add hcg at high dosages along with DHT?

If the DHT lowering medications didn’t suck with their side effects this might be easier but it seems as if each scenario has a very slim chance of getting that perfect balance.

Anything I’m missing?

 

[DS3]

Well heck.

Ok, please correct me if I’m wrong here. Anyone, not just Gman.

So testosterone can be turned into e2 or DHT.

A DHT derivative medication cannot be turned into testosterone or e2 but DHT can lower e2 or at least reduce the side effects of e2.

So trying to get a perfect test/e2/DHT level is like winning the dam lottery in terms of chances when you’re doing this through testosterone (injections/Scotal cream application) because the chain reaction test has on the other two.

So if I take DHT medication it will most likely cause low e2 issues. If I add testosterone into the mix to try to increase e2 levels it could increase DHT levels more than what I want.

So what options are left. Drop the test, then add hcg at high dosages along with DHT?

If the DHT lowering medications didn’t suck with their side effects this might be easier but it seems as if each scenario has a very slim chance of getting that perfect balance.

Anything I’m missing?

Assuming that you are already on TRT, if you stick with 100-200 mg exogenous T weekly, 750-1500 IU HCG weekly (250 IU 3 x weekly up to 500 IU 3x weekly), and add in a DHT derivative in low/moderate dosage you should be fine.

Some guys aromatize at a higher rate than other guys due to the inherent 'efficacy' of their aromatase enzymes. For us guys who aromatize at a fairly significant rate and experience high E2 side effects that don't get better with lowering the T dosage and for those who don't want to take an AI, taking a DHT derivative will compete for receptor activity with estrogen (similar to a SERM) and will reduce the side effects you feel from estrogen. Mesterolone and drostanolone express their anti-estrogenic effects to a higher degree than other DHT derivatives, with drostanolone expressing the highest anti-estrogenic effects (so much so that it was previously used in breast cancer patients before the advent of AIs).

There is not going to be a definitive model or cookie-cutter protocol that one could layout for you to follow. However, it's always a best practice to start at the lower end of dosages and work your way up if deemed necessary. Primobolan, mesterolone, oxandrolone, stanozolol, and drostanolone are going to be your main DHT derivatives you can work with; oxandrolone and stanozolol being the only two that are legally available in the U.S.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

Assuming that you are already on TRT, if you stick with 100-200 mg exogenous T weekly, 750-1500 IU HCG weekly (250 IU 3 x weekly up to 500 IU 3x weekly), and add in a DHT derivative in low/moderate dosage you should be fine.

Some guys aromatize at a higher rate than other guys due to the inherent 'efficacy' of their aromatase enzymes. For us guys who aromatize at a fairly significant rate and experience high E2 side effects that don't get better with lowering the T dosage and for those who don't want to take an AI, taking a DHT derivative will compete for receptor activity with estrogen (similar to a SERM) and will reduce the side effects you feel from estrogen. Mesterolone and drostanolone express their anti-estrogenic effects to a higher degree than other DHT derivatives, with drostanolone expressing the highest anti-estrogenic effects (so much so that it was previously used in breast cancer patients before the advent of AIs).

There is not going to be a definitive model or cookie-cutter protocol that one could layout for you to follow. However, it's always a best practice to start at the lower end of dosages and work your way up if deemed necessary. Primobolan, mesterolone, oxandrolone, stanozolol, and drostanolone are going to be your main DHT derivatives you can work with; oxandrolone and stanozolol being the only two that are legally available in the U.S.

I agree, although the odd thing is that of all the DHT derivatives the 2 who are legal in the USA are C17-AlphaAlkylated tabs which are not really suitable in higher doses for long term use. As with the milder and better dosing control of Drostanolone(Masteron) and Mesterolone(Proviron) the strength of Oxandrolone or Stanozolol on E2 control is much more profound as are the negative effects on lipids and liver enzymes. My experience is with Stanozolol is great as it is definitely my favourite for different reasons but on EM there is a member who posted his new protocol and the doc makes him take 25mg of Stanozolol once a week for E2 control. That is a big burst of synthetic DHT and seeing that tab half-life is only 9 hours that would create an E2 jojo which I would not tolerate well. I take a 2mg(Menabol) tab of Stanozolol a day and do great. In my first experiment with Stanozolol I brought it up to 20mg and that crashed my E2 which took me months to recover from.
I cannot say anything about Oxandrolone as I cannot legally source it here but I recon it is the same but only a bit more forgiving on the liver as it gets mainly cleared by the kidneys I have read.

There is a lot of talk on ratio´s what ratio between T:E or FT:E etc makes you feel good. I am asuming but can not test this yet, that the 5AR Conversion Vs Aromatisation(DHT:E2?) is the ratio/balance which indicates/influences my well being.