Inexplicably high Estrogens

[Vince Carter]

OK well Im baffled...still converting to E at a high rate, most of this is what I'd call statistically unchanged. Latest protocol:

20mg/D (down from 28 to 24 and now 20mg)
200iu once per week
.25mg EOD
No DHEA
No Preg

LC/MS/MS 41
Estradiol, Free 1.04 (<0.45, highest this one has ever been)
Estradiol 47 (<29, standard test)
TT: 1105
FT: 284.6 (35-155)
DHT, Free 3.78 (1.00-6.20)
DHT LC/MS/MS 36 (16-79, 36 is about my norm)

No idea at all how or why I'm converting such as I am. I think that I've had some symptom improvement but it's very minor like sweats/hot has abated slightly and there is a bit more penile sensitivity but could be anecdotal at most, still require PDE5s, tough to maintain, tough to orgasm.
H/H are still basically out of control high and require donation which I'm already doing. Still feeling easily aggitated, no nipple issues, possibly some bloating but I'm iffy about water retention.

 

[simeoni]

In my opinion there's still room for you to lower the dosage. Why dont you lower it until FT levels come down to the upper end of the reference range? Ive always felt agitated when it goes too high.

With your low shbg you could do better when your TT is somewhere around 600-700s.

 

[Vince Carter]

In my opinion there's still room for you to lower the dosage. Why dont you lower it until FT levels come down to the upper end of the reference range? Ive always felt agitated when it goes too high.

With your low shbg you could do better when your TT is somewhere around 600-700s.

That's where I'm headed will go to 16mg/D starting tomorrow but this is all just baffling...to this point I've cut my weekly cumulative dose by 56mg and its made little to no difference. The Free T has come down, some, but that's what I've been targeting with dose is to get that down. I'm really really surprised by all of this.

 

[Weasel]

you really feel those e2 numbers are elevated? As others have said, you sure could reduce dosage and get FT down into range or closer at least.

 

[Vince Carter]

you really feel those e2 numbers are elevated? As others have said, you sure could reduce dosage and get FT down into range or closer at least.

Its not the number, its the symptoms, the number is just a clue.

 

[madman]

That's where I'm headed will go to 16mg/D starting tomorrow but this is all just baffling...to this point I've cut my weekly cumulative dose by 56mg and its made little to no difference. The Free T has come down, some, but that's what I've been targeting with dose is to get that down. I'm really really surprised by all of this.

A healthy male produces 6-7 mg testosterone daily.

100 mg cypionate minus ester = 70 mg/test

Of course there are other factors involved but in basic terms injecting 10 mg cypionate daily = 7 mg/test

You have slowly decreased your daily dose and due to where your shbg sits your free t is still almost double top end physiological range.

I think that getting your free t closer to the top end of the range or maybe just slightly over will put you in a good place in the long run.

I understand you have your own reasons for having your levels where you like them to be but 26 mg cyp daily (original dose) is a whopping dose of test and even though you may metabolize it much quicker your body still has to deal with all that free t let alone excess e2.

I know it might be hard for some to leave their comfort zone especially when changing their protocol but it is the only way one will know.

Lowering your daily dose slowly will give you time to gauge results (lab work/how you feel regarding overall symptoms).

I would work your way down to 15 mg/daily and go from there as using the lowest possible daily dose will more than likely yield the best results.

You need to find what that low point is where your levels are still in a healthy range and your free t sits at a descent level to feel overall benefits regarding low t symptoms and minimal sides.

At least by taking the chance and slowly lowering your dose you can truly see how it effects you.

Worst case scenario you feel terrible at lower levels (highly unlikely) and have ruffled your comfort zone during your trial/error period.

As you know it will take time as your body adjusts so you just need to stick through it and try to find out what is the lowest possible dose you can inject daily to achieve the most positive benefits/minimal sides.

Best of luck to you Vince, hope it turns out for the best in the end!

 

[Vince Carter]

I appreciate that MM...this is all very perplexing to see in the numbers how the dose change is having little effect. LIke I said I'll drop it another 4mg/D to 16 and go from there.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

I appreciate that MM...this is all very perplexing to see in the numbers how the dose change is having little effect. LIke I said I'll drop it another 4mg/D to 16 and go from there.

Agree, keep coming down Vince.

 

[HealthMan]

You have plenty of room to keep lowering our dosage Vince. You probably need to bring your FT close to the upper range to have better control of estradiol levels. Dont be afraid. I came down from 180mg a week to 110mg a week and I still feel great. I no longer feel like i am plugged in on 220V 24/7. Better sleep. And I was able to drop anastrozole entirely (was using 0.25mg E3D before).
Hopefully with time i will achieve iron homeostasis again (that was totally destroyed by too much testosterone and too many blood donations) and my hematocrit will stabilize or at least only require me to donate a couple of time a year.

 

[Vince Carter]

Todays blood donation had my HGB @ 16.4 which would approximate a HCT of 49....both were much lower than expected and lower than my last CBC (3 weeks ago) which was 18 and 55 respectively.

 

[madman]

Todays blood donation had my HGB @ 16.4 which would approximate a HCT of 49....both were much lower than expected and lower than my last CBC (3 weeks ago) which was 18 and 55 respectively.

Good to hear, much better news to come I would say!

 

[HealthMan]

Todays blood donation had my HGB @ 16.4 which would approximate a HCT of 49....both were much lower than expected and lower than my last CBC (3 weeks ago) which was 18 and 55 respectively.

Good stuff! Soon you will get E2 under control hopefully without the need of an AI

 

[HealthMan]

You might wanna stop iron supplementation and try to stop donating blood(checking hematocrit every other month). With your lower testosterone dosage you might be able to achieve homeostasis again in the iron/HCT department.

 

[Vince Carter]

New labs. E definitely came down but my TT/FT stayed up inspite of the dose reduction. Some better penile sensitivity, body acne is improving a little, attitude/temperment are still a little on the PMS side, no water retention that I can tell, no nipple issues of concern, still tired a bit, sleep is about the same. Erection quality is poor to fair without PDE5i which work pretty well for me. Sometimes tough for me to maintain.

This has all been rather transparent as far as symptoms go, still doing very good, just not great.

16mg/D
200iu HCG once per week
.25mg AI EOD

LC/MS/MS: 18 (<=29)
Estradiol: 23 (<=29)
Estradiol, Free: .62 (<=0.45)
TT: 941 (250-1100)
FT: 291 (35-155)
PSA: 0.6

 

[Gman86]

I can't believe your free T is double the normal range at only 941 total test! I'm so jealous lol. My SHBG is around 45-50, so just to be at the top end of free T I have to keep my total test at around 1600. You're close to half of my total T yet double my free T. That's awesome. What's your SHBG level at, must be extremely low.

Also I'm probably missing something here, but why not just drop your testosterone dosage down to the point where you don't need an AI? You clearly have room to do it and still keep your free T over the normal range.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

New labs. E definitely came down but my TT/FT stayed up inspite of the dose reduction. Some better penile sensitivity, body acne is improving a little, attitude/temperment are still a little on the PMS side, no water retention that I can tell, no nipple issues of concern, still tired a bit, sleep is about the same. Erection quality is poor to fair without PDE5i which work pretty well for me. Sometimes tough for me to maintain.

This has all been rather transparent as far as symptoms go, still doing very good, just not great.

16mg/D
200iu HCG once per week
.25mg AI EOD

LC/MS/MS: 18 (<=29)
Estradiol: 23 (<=29)
Estradiol, Free: .62 (<=0.45)
TT: 941 (250-1100)
FT: 291 (35-155)
PSA: 0.6

With free T so high, I'd personally want to try reducing T cyp dosage significantly.

 

[Vince Carter]

LOL...I've already cut it by 84mg/week and it's still that high, really hasn't changed much at all from 24>20>16mg

Will go to 14mg/D starting tomorrow. Ive been targeting the FT, but the E finally came down instead.

I'm comfortable with the AI use as it is though I'd like to try Aromasin but checking my clinic they want $19 for one 25mg tablet.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I'm down to 38mg E3D or 84mg/week with much higher SHBG. At 96/week I was at:

Testosterone, Serum 1054 ng/dL 264 - 916
Free Testosterone(Direct) 21.8 pg/mL 7.2 - 24.0

And wanted to go lower to get E2 and HCT down further.

i know we all have different goals, YMMV, but in range without serious side effects is where I want to be. And, at this point I'd use an AI as well, but if I can do without, so much the better.

Glad the E2 is dropping for you.