Idiots will tell you AIs are bad for you

[eli]

There are a lot of them out there... Somehow they understand that testosterone isn't bad for you if it brings your T levels to a good amount, but they fight you that AIs are bad for you. There is not a single study done on men on trt taking light doses of AIs to bring their estrogen to desirable levels. All studies are done for breast cancer with hefty ass doses that nuke estrogen. All the side effects reported are mostly due to crashed estrogen. It's the same if you abuse testosterone and get unwanted side effects.

I'm not a fan of AIs, it's the last thing you should do, but AIs aren't bad for you, low estrogen is bad for you, just like high estrogen is bad for.
There also will be plenty of gurus including doctors that'll tell you estrogen doesn't cause gyno or make you feel like shit, but as soon as you take a low dose of arimidex, you feel like a million bucks, nipples stop itching, boners for days. But then because most of take a much larger than required dose, they crash their estradiol and blame arimidex for it. If you just don't feel the benefits of TRT, take a low dose AI to see if you feel better, if you do then estradiol is your problem. You just need to find the right dose of AI.

Thoughts!

 

[Gman86]

I think ur spot on. An ai should be a last resort option, but I’ve literally seen over a thousand anecdotes at this point where guys feel like crap and are symptomatic, they take a low dose ai and feel much better and their symptoms resolve. Could they have gotten the same results by implementing other methods, ya maybe. But the ai was a quick fix, and there’s no studies showing harm with guys on HRT taking a low dose ai and keeping E2 within a healthy range. Like u said, any study done showing that ai’s are bad for u were done on people not on HRT, and not keeping their E2 within a healthy range

 

[Deleted member 16042]

The horse is dead.

 

[bixt]

I also agree, cases exist where low dose AI is needed.

We hear about people saying "up the dose till free T is at upper level" and/or symptoms resolve. Now thats all and well, but in a few people E2 sides will occur. Then others will chime in, "dose too high, reduce dose". Problem with that is that TRT is then not effective/fully effective.

Only case to have the best of both worlds is use the minimum T dose where the low T symptoms resolve, and then titrate up AI where high E2 symptoms go away. With AIs, you can have your cake and eat it.

 

[lukas_az]

my clinic recommended DIM in lieu of AI's. my estradiol is close to 50ng/dl but I got no symptoms. why do i need to bring it down again? libido/mood is good

 

[eli]

my clinic recommended DIM in lieu of AI's. my estradiol is close to 50ng/dl but I got no symptoms. why do i need to bring it down again? libido/mood is good

DIM blocks androgen activity
You don't need to lower your estradiol if you feel good

 

[Gman86]

I also agree, cases exist where low dose AI is needed.

We hear about people saying "up the dose till free T is at upper level" and/or symptoms resolve. Now thats all and well, but in a few people E2 sides will occur. Then others will chime in, "dose too high, reduce dose". Problem with that is that TRT is then not effective/fully effective.

Only case to have the best of both worlds is use the minimum T dose where the low T symptoms resolve, and then titrate up AI where high E2 symptoms go away. With AIs, you can have your cake and eat it.

Only thing I would add is that other than an ai, a DHT derivative might be a possible option to try and lower E2/ prolactin a bit, and improve one’s test to estrogen ratio, as well as getting the benefits of whatever DHT derivative the person uses

 

[Jurek Kletsy]

There is not a single study done on men on trt taking light doses of AIs to bring their estrogen to desirable levels. All studies are done for breast cancer with hefty ass doses that nuke estrogen. All the side effects reported are mostly due to crashed estrogen. It's the same if you abuse testosterone and get unwanted side effects.

I'm not a fan of AIs, it's the last thing you should do, but AIs aren't bad for you, low estrogen is bad for you, just like high estrogen is bad for.

And is there a study showing that using small doses of AI is safe or even desirable? What is the desirable level of estradiol in men on trt? Do our optimal levels align with the reference ranges of men not on trt? If so, how did we come to these findings?

There are a lot of unknown variables. All we know is that lowering estradiol too much is not healthy long-term, but when you use an AI and lower estradiol a little in your blood, how much did you lower it in the tissues outside of your blood?

Trt is far from an exact science, it‘s a personal experiment. You are the n=1. If somebody wants to use an AI, he should be aware of potential risks and should know that the general lab ranges aren’t necessarily something to strive for (even if your doctor will, because he is also in the dark). We all need to balance risk with reward. Nobody including doctors should tell you what to do, they should only provide you with information - hopefully correct - and you should decide what you want to do with it.

 

[bixt]

when you use an AI and lower estradiol a little in your blood, how much did you lower it in the tissues outside of your blood?

That is an excellent question I always wonder about. I also wonder if aromasin only works in the blood or in other tissues as well.

 

[JimGainz]

I am a low-dose AI user, recently switching to 12.5 mg of Aromisin from .25 mg Arimidex per week. I could never control estrogen on Arimidex. It was either too high - like E2 the 70s, or it would crash to single digits. Aromasin keeps my E2 at around 30. Without any AI my E2 winds up being at 80 or 90. I simply do not buy into the whole “do not use an AI” fad. I think it’s a bad practice when the Youtube TRT specialists make generalized statements like this. Obviously if you can control estrogen without needing it, all the better, but if one has symptoms or, simply wanted to see how he would feel on one - I don’t see the harm in going on something low-dose.

A lot of the problems with aromatase inhibitors are because men take too much of them and wind up crashing their estrogen. Keeping E2 in the 30 to 40 range is not an issue. I simply failed to see the logic when someone goes on testosterone replacement therapy and their E2 gets to 70, 80, 90 or even 100 and people say “don’t worry - it’s fine.” It’s not fine in my opinion – this does not exist in nature.

 

[eli]

I am a low-dose AI user, recently switching to 12.5 mg of Aromisin from .25 mg Arimidex per week. I could never control estrogen on Arimidex. It was either too high - like E2 the 70s, or it would crash to single digits. Aromasin keeps my E2 at around 30. Without any AI my E2 winds up being at 80 or 90. I simply do not buy into the whole “do not use an AI” fad. I think it’s a bad practice when the Youtube TRT specialists make generalized statements like this. Obviously if you can control estrogen without needing it, all the better, but if one has symptoms or, simply wanted to see how he would feel on one - I don’t see the harm in going on something low-dose.

A lot of the problems with aromatase inhibitors are because men take too much of them and wind up crashing their estrogen. Keeping E2 in the 30 to 40 range is not an issue. I simply failed to see the logic when someone goes on testosterone replacement therapy and their E2 gets to 70, 80, 90 or even 100 and people say “don’t worry - it’s fine.” It’s not fine in my opinion – this does not exist in nature.

Arimidex is very powerful, I crash my estradiol with even .05mg... I gotta say I'm a hyper responder to drugs.

People need to start with .0625, take it once a week and see if it makes you feel different, if not, same dose 2x a week. If not then .12mg once a week and so on

 

[Gman86]

I am a low-dose AI user, recently switching to 12.5 mg of Aromisin from .25 mg Arimidex per week. I could never control estrogen on Arimidex. It was either too high - like E2 the 70s, or it would crash to single digits. Aromasin keeps my E2 at around 30. Without any AI my E2 winds up being at 80 or 90. I simply do not buy into the whole “do not use an AI” fad. I think it’s a bad practice when the Youtube TRT specialists make generalized statements like this. Obviously if you can control estrogen without needing it, all the better, but if one has symptoms or, simply wanted to see how he would feel on one - I don’t see the harm in going on something low-dose.

A lot of the problems with aromatase inhibitors are because men take too much of them and wind up crashing their estrogen. Keeping E2 in the 30 to 40 range is not an issue. I simply failed to see the logic when someone goes on testosterone replacement therapy and their E2 gets to 70, 80, 90 or even 100 and people say “don’t worry - it’s fine.” It’s not fine in my opinion – this does not exist in nature.

Elevated E2 also causes issues within the thyroid. I believe with thyroid binding globulin and the conversion of T4 to T3. Obv the level that’s “too high” and causes these types of issues is gonna be different for everyone, but all hormones need to be in balance. U’ll never find a hormone that it’s ok to just let go very high or very low. Everything in the body works within a balance system. E2 is obv no exception

 

[eli]

Elevated E2 also causes issues within the thyroid. I believe with thyroid binding globulin and the conversion of T4 to T3. Obv the level that’s “too high” and causes these types of issues is gonna be different for everyone, but all hormones need to be in balance. U’ll never find a hormone that it’s ok to just let go very high or very low. Everything in the body works within a balance system. E2 is obv no exception

I think some people get away with 0 progesterone or pregnenolone

 

[Jurek Kletsy]

A lot of the problems with aromatase inhibitors are because men take too much of them and wind up crashing their estrogen. Keeping E2 in the 30 to 40 range is not an issue. I simply failed to see the logic when someone goes on testosterone replacement therapy and their E2 gets to 70, 80, 90 or even 100 and people say “don’t worry - it’s fine.” It’s not fine in my opinion – this does not exist in nature.

But injecting testosterone is natural? Even if you are using a small amount to boost your levels to a healthy range, you are interfering with nature. You are supplying your body with exogenous testosterone which doesn’t mimic a natural release pattern very well and which suppresses your own production of T, LH, FSH which in itself causes a whole cascade of changes.
I’m not saying you can‘t feel better using an AI, but your reasoning is flawed. If you are on TRT, you can‘t assume everything else is supposed to align with what ‘exists in nature’.

 

[bixt]

E2 gets to 70, 80, 90 or even 100 and people say “don’t worry - it’s fine.” It’s not fine in my opinion – this does not exist in nature.

Exactly, its not fine. If their body is such a master of homeostasis and regulating hormones so "E2 sits its where it needs to be" then how come these geniuses are low T in the first place...(most of them being secondary hypo not primary)

Hypocrites, thats what they are.

 

[Gman86]

I think some people get away with 0 progesterone or pregnenolone

Ya of course u can get away with it. Doesn’t mean it’s healthy for the body. And some people don’t realize how sub-par they feel until they actually feel really good. But it’s all about just being happy. So if someone is happy with very low prog or preg levels I say just keep doing what ur doing. It’s literally all about just being happy, imo.

 

[Jurek Kletsy]

Exactly, its not fine. If their body is such a master of homeostasis and regulating hormones so "E2 sits its where it needs to be" then how come these geniuses are low T in the first place...(most of them being secondary hypo not primary)

Hypocrites, thats what they are.

That seems to be a simplistic view. Testosterone is produced and estradiol is aromatized from what testosterone is already there. Problems with one proces doesn‘t just equate problems with the other, especially once testosterone levels have been restored. I belief that overaromatization often is an issue of having too much bodyfat and/or an unhealthy lifestyle.

However introducing exogenous testosterone produces, even if you are staying within physiological range, results in a greater net average intraday testosterone level because of the lack of fluctuations compared to natural production. It would thus seem not unlikely that average estradiol levels for people on TRT would also be higher. I am unaware of large data pools om this aspect. Are you?

 

[Craig74]

You don't need to lower your estradiol if you feel good

My TRT doctor said that high estrogen irritates the prostate. That isn't something I will feel. Do you disagree with him?

 

[Systemlord]

My TRT doctor said that high estrogen irritates the prostate.

I've heard this to be the case in men with low-T and estrogen dominance.

 

[eli]

My TRT doctor said that high estrogen irritates the prostate. That isn't something I will feel. Do you disagree with him?

If your estrogen is high, you'd feel off
Likewise if it's low.
Numbers come after how you feel. I know when my estrogen is high, i feel emotional and like westersn say, a lil bitchh lol! For me, low shbg guy, I need low 20s estradiol for T levels of 500-700

Doctors that try to fit same shoe size on everyone are no good, TRT is a game of trial and error