High Labs

[over60andusingtrt]

Having a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL means nothing without knowing where your FT sits let alone how many days post-injection you were hitting such!

Although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of T responsible for the positive effects.

Even then with a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL you would need to have an absurdly high SHBG in order to have a not so stellar FT level.

To put this in perspective a man with a TT 1400-1500 ng/dL and a very high SHBG of 80 nmol/L would still have a high FT!

How many days post-injection were labs done?

If anything you need to find out where your trough FT (lowest point) before next injection sits.

You could easily calculate your FT if you know where your SHBG sits.

Need to know where your FT truly sits before jumping to any conclusions.

Although having healthy FT levels is important when it comes to gaining muscle/strength not only is following a proper diet/training protocol critical to making progress but more importantly genetics will have the final say.

When using a therapeutic dose of T whether serum levels remain moderate, high-end, slightly above the physiological range one will see a change in body composition (muscle/strength, fat loss) to a certain degree depending on diet/training and of course genetics.

Gains will not be indefinite when using therapeutic doses long-term and regardless trt doses are not going to take you well beyond your natural genetic potential.

Most when training natty make their best gains within the first 1-2 years and during the first year is where most notice the biggest impact.

The longer you train the harder it becomes to add pure muscle tissue.

Keep in mind genetics plays a huge role.

Aim here would be achieving a healthy FT level combined with a proper diet/exercise regimen if your goal is to maintain muscle let alone experience improvements in body composition (gain muscle/lose adipose).

This can easily be achieved using therapeutic dose of T.

If you goal is to pack on muscle mass/increase strength well beyond your genetic potential and sport that fake looking chemically enhanced build that unfortunately many tend to idolize then you would need to abuse T/AAS.

Thanks for your informative response. Like I said at the beginning, I've trained my entire adult life and know what my genetic limits are. All I'm trying to do now is get close to where I normally am. For 40 years my physique changed very little and that's all I want now.

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.

Throughout all of this, my diet and exercise routine remains constant, I work like a beast in the gym and eat tons of protein.

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

 

[over60andusingtrt]

For those of you who train hard with weights and are over 60, what is your daily protein intake and what is your fat/muscle balance? In other words, if you have big arms, chest and shoulders, what does your gut look like?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Where do you buy your HCG and have you noticed any benefits?

The most striking and certain benefit I can attribute to it is an improvement in orgasm quality. It may also improve libido. I think it has some effects on mood and cognition, but I'm not sure how to characterize them yet and whether they're good or bad. It's still early days.

I'm using Sifasi brand from alldaychemist.

 

[madman]

Thanks for your informative response. Like I said at the beginning, I've trained my entire adult life and know what my genetic limits are. All I'm trying to do now is get close to where I normally am. For 40 years my physique changed very little and that's all I want now.

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.

Throughout all of this, my diet and exercise routine remains constant, I work like a beast in the gym and eat tons of protein.

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.




post #3

Thanks Funk, I take 132mg TC spread over 3 injections per week.


Need to clear this up here as you stated that you had decreased the dose from 150--->120 mg T/week 3 months ago yet in your reply from post #3 you state that you are injecting 132 mg T/week split into 3 injections but then in this post state that you increased your dose back up to 150 mg T/week 3 weeks ago and are now hitting a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL?

So as of now you have been injecting 150 mg T/week split 3X weekly for the past 3 weeks and you are hitting a TT 1468 ng/dL 24 hrs post-injection?

I need to know before I lay this out here.

 

[madman]

Thanks for your informative response. Like I said at the beginning, I've trained my entire adult life and know what my genetic limits are. All I'm trying to do now is get close to where I normally am. For 40 years my physique changed very little and that's all I want now.

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.

Throughout all of this, my diet and exercise routine remains constant, I work like a beast in the gym and eat tons of protein.

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.


Making a big mistake here.

Yes symptom relief is what truly matters here but lab work is critical and you need to know where your trough FT level truly sits let alone what impact such protocol (dose of T/injection frequency) has on other important blood markers which would include RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Top it all off that we are trying to minimize/avoid any potential negative side effects let alone keep overall blood markers healthy long-term.

The goal here is we are using therapeutic doses of T in order to achieve a healthy trough FT level which will result in improvement of low-T symptoms and overall well-being let alone improvements in body composition (adding some muscle/increasing strength, losing adipose) when following a proper diet/training protocol.

Lab work is critical.

Yes there is such a thing as running too high a FT level.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum running too high a FT can be just as bad in many ways as running too low a FT especially when it comes to libido, erectile function let alone mood.

Hammering the shit out of your dopamine can easily backfire on one in the long-run.

One is more prone to sides (cosmetic/blood markers) if you drive your FT up too high!

You should not be using exogenous T without getting the proper labs done throughout therapy.

Flying blind here is a big mistake.

Again you have no clue where your trough FT truly sits!

Truth About Testosterone and Your Libido

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/truth-testosterone-libido-185000725.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr As an expert on andrology and sexual dysfunctions, urologist Andrew Y. Sun, M.D., sees plenty of patients who’re struggling with low libido. And most are pretty sure they already...

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Androgen modulation of mesoprefrontal dopamine systems and the effects of these actions on the adult male brain

Again would tread lightly on how high you run your trough/steady-state FT level! This can easily backfire in the long-run for many especially when it comes to mood, libido and erectile function! Too high a FT level can be just as bad in many ways as having too low a FT level. Libido starts in...

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Switching From Oral Test to Test Cypionate

Hello, I tried Kyzatrex at 200mg twice a day for a total of 400mg a day but it only got my total Test to 419. According to their titration guide, I would need 2x200mg twice a day for a total of 800mg a day which becomes cost prohibitive for me. So I have decided to try Test Cypionate instead...

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[madman]

Thanks for your informative response. Like I said at the beginning, I've trained my entire adult life and know what my genetic limits are. All I'm trying to do now is get close to where I normally am. For 40 years my physique changed very little and that's all I want now.

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.

Throughout all of this, my diet and exercise routine remains constant, I work like a beast in the gym and eat tons of protein.

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

You're past fertility concerns; do you take T alone or add HCG?

I'm 68, don't want kids anymore, on T monotherapy and nothing else. But should I also be on HCG? I've read that HCG is not just helpful for fertility and the prevention of testicular atrophy, but for a host of other hormonal benefits. Should everyone who starts TTH also take HCG? How many of...

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My reply from a previous thread where the poster asked if hCG was needed:


Depends on the individual.....Is hCG needed?

*To preserve/maintain fertility then yes.

*To prevent/minimize testicular atrophy then yes.

*To enhance mood/libido it is not a given as some may experience such effects whereas others may feel worse off.

*To maintain upstream hormones and possibly prevent long-term consequences for health/wellbeing.....you be the judge!

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

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*Take-home point:

A replacement regimen with combined hCG/rFSH mimics physiologic steroid hormone profiles better than a substitution with exogenous testosterone. The documented differences in steroid profiles on testosterone replacement in hypogonadal males with absent or severely reduced endogenous LH and FSH secretion may have long-term consequences for health and well-being. Specifically, body composition, bone health, glucose, and lipid metabolism, salt and water balance, cognition, mood, sleep, and sexual function could be affected. The steroidogenic differences could also be relevant for gonadotropin-suppressive treatments with long-acting testosterone preparations in males with primary hypogonadism. To what extent this hypothesis is true, should be addressed in future clinical studies.

 

[madman]

Thanks for your informative response. Like I said at the beginning, I've trained my entire adult life and know what my genetic limits are. All I'm trying to do now is get close to where I normally am. For 40 years my physique changed very little and that's all I want now.

I'm starting to think my recent change might be related to my reducing of TC from 150ml/wk to 120/wk three months prior. I did this because I had high blood pressure and suspected the high TT.

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.

Throughout all of this, my diet and exercise routine remains constant, I work like a beast in the gym and eat tons of protein.

I don't put much stock in labs, I rely more on how I look and feel.

Side bar here, what are your thoughts on HCG?

My BP is fine now and I'm increasing my TC back up to 150ml/wk to see if I can make some gains. Already three weeks in I think I see a slight improvement in my physique. But my recent labs showing 1468 TT alarmed me, hence this thread. I had taken a shot only 24 hours before the lab test, so that may account for the big number.


If such is truly the case and you have been injecting 150 mg T week split 3X and you are hitting a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL 24 hours post-injection (peak) 3 weeks in then you have not even reached steady-state yet due to the half-life TC/TE which means that your TT/FT will be even higher once you hit steady state (4-6 weeks).

When using esterified T (TC/TE) it will take 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize due to the PKs.

You need to wait 6 weeks before getting blood work done in order to see where your trough TT/FT level truly sits on such protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

We always want to test at the true trough (lowest point) before next injection.

When injecting 3X weekly say (M/W/F) then true trough would be Monday morning (72 hrs) post-injection.

Even than as of now which would only be 3 weeks in on such dose you are hitting a peak TT 1468 ng/dL and seeing as you are splitting the dose and injecting 3X weekly your trough TT would still be high.

More importantly you are most likely hitting a high-end/high trough FT unless you have an absurdly sky-high SHBG 100+ nmol/L (highly doubtful).

As I stated previously with a whopping TT 1468 ng/dL even if one had a very high SHBG 80 nmol/L their FT would still be high!

TT 1468 ng/dL, very high SHBG 80 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL (default) would result in a high-end FT 20.7 ng/dL!

Dad now son at 19 low t

I got DX at 40 years old with secondary hypogonadism and have been on trt since. I remember I had lowish LH and FSH. Tried clomid which brought up LH moderately but did not bring up my testosterone enough. Also felt not well on it. I believe I have some primary and secondary. Because I have a...

www.excelmale.com

Again just to put this in perspective most healthy young males would be hitting a FT 10-12 ng/dL tested using the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis assay (most accurate) or a cFTV 13-15 ng/dL and this is a short-lived peak to boot!

Trough would be 20-25% lower.

More importantly a FT in the low-mid 20s whether cFTV or standardized ED assay would be very high!

Everyone needs to hammer it in their heads that a trough FT 30 ng/dL is absurdly high.

We are talking f**king TROUGH here too not peak!

Age-stratified reference ranges for directly measured (ED LC-MS/MS) serum free testosterone in healthy men

Just to be clear up any confusion this is Fiers camps data for mFT reference ranges not the harmonized reference range being worked on by the CDC. *Serum samples were analyzed from healthy men participating in the SIBLOS/SIBEX and EMAS studies, both population-based cohort studies * mFT...

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*We established mFT reference ranges for healthy men aged 18 to 69 years




We present 95% mFT age-stratified reference ranges

Age category (years)	Median mFT (ng/dl)	95% mFT reference range (ng/dl)
18-29 (n=140) 30-39 (n=252)	12.0 9.8	6.7-25.3 4.9-18.5
40-49 (n=207)	8.1	4.3.14.2
50-59 (n=146)	7.1	3.8-12.8
60-69 (n=126)	6.4	3.4-11.7
70-79 (n=125)	5.6	2.7-8.7

*The gold-standard for the determination of FT levels is considered to be directly measured free testosterone (mFT) using equilibrium dialysis followed by mass spectrometry (ED LC-MS/MS). However, no widely accepted reference ranges are available for this clinical parameter. We established mFT reference ranges for healthy men aged 18 to 69 years









*Serum samples were analyzed from healthy men participating in the SIBLOS/SIBEX and EMAS studies, both population-based cohort studies


* mFT levels were measured in 867 men using ED LC-MS/MS as previously reported (1).


Reference: 1. Fiers T, Wu F, Moghetti P, Vanderschueren D, Lapauw B, Kaufman JM. Reassessing Free-Testosterone Calculation by Liquid Chromatography–Tandem Mass Spectrometry Direct Equilibrium Dialysis. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2018;103(6). doi:10.1210/jc.2017-02360

In the current study, we used a state-of-the-art direct ED method to reassess FT in sets of representative serum samples. This method takes advantage of the ability of a highly sensitive and accurate measurement of T by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) to reliably measure the low FT concentration directly in the dialysate after ED. This more straightforward method avoids potential sources of inaccuracy in indirect ED, such as those resulting from tracer impurities or from measures to limit their impact (e.g., sample dilution). We then used the measured FT results to re-evaluate some characteristics of two more established and a more recently proposed calculations for estimation of FT.

 

[Wild_Man]

Your estrogen is low in relation to your testosterone. Estrogen helps you lose fat, not gain it.


As far as being able to build muscle, that's mostly genetics, a little bit diet and also your lifting technique. I'm not on TRT and have a Total T @ 104 ng/dL Free T @ 1.89 ng/dL, both well below normal ranges and have no problems building muscle.

Just curious, how come you’re okay with your Total T and Free T being so low? Aren’t those levels similar to that of a woman?

 

[Systemlord]

Just curious, how come you’re okay with your Total T and Free T being so low?

I'm okay with lower testosterone values because I feel better, have more energy than I ever did on TRT. My fasting glucose is lower off TRT, higher on TRT due to the way it changes my iron metabolism.

It's as if you're insinuating that everyone is the same, should have the same testosterone values to get the full benefit and be healthy. If we can agree everyone has their own normal range, hence the big difference is normal ranges (264-916 ng/dL), that some men feel best mid range while others feel better at the top end or higher, that right there should tell you something.

Aren’t those levels similar to that of a woman?

Whether my testosterone similar to that of a woman, I still have the proper ratios of testosterone metabolites.

I must have very sensitive androgen receptors where a little testosterone (estrogen & DHT) goes a lot further than it does with an average man with average androgen receptors.

Woman are more sensitive to testosterone than men are, men are more sensitive to estrogen. I'm more sensitive to both.

High testosterone is relative to the sensitivity at the receptor to testosterone. Higher sensitivity you need less, an insensitivity at the receptors you need more to get the same effects as someone with high sensitivity.

If the body has usually sensitive receptors, the body is still going to regulate itself by not creating an excess of testosterone.

I need to get my RBC count, hematocrit, hemoglobin and ferritin levels down so I can truly recover my health. My testosterone levels and CBC right now are a mismatch due to being on TRT and supplementing iron.

It's only been 2.5 weeks since stopping TRT.

The last blood donation, for 3-4 days I had insane energy, amazing erections that disappeared due to my iron, ferritin not going down enough. I can't even tolerate vitamin D from food right now because of the higher end CBC.

Every time I eat something with iron or red meat, is slows me down and the symptoms are the same as if I supplement iron only to a lesser degree.

 

[Systemlord]

Variations in CAG Repeats of Men’s Androgen Receptor Gene

As the mediator of androgen actions, the androgen receptor (AR) plays a central role in establishing both physical and behavioral sex differences. The AR gene contains a CAG repeat polymorphism that is related to the strength of androgen actions on target tissues and that is correlated with...

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