Help me dial in my protocol Nebido

[Chrander]

New blood sample in.

Levels prior to changing my regime;

F-test: 5.1 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 34 8- 35 nmol/l . (980 ng/dl)
Prolactin 439* <700
Free t3: 3,8 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 13,3 . 11-23
SHBG: 67* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.07

7 weeks has gone by after changing to 140mg Nebido (56-57 IU) every Sunday. Changing between right and left shoulder.

Bloods was taken this Thursday (7,5 weeks);

F-test: 5.8 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 37 8- 35 nmol/l .
Prolactin: 132 <700
Free t3: 3,4 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 14.6 . 11-23
SHBG: 64* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.10. 0-0,17
B-EVF: 0.50 0,4-0,5
P-TSH: 1,6 0,2-0,4


SHBG is still high. Serum test is above normal.

Not feeling great yet. Libido is not normal yet.

Should I keep the dosage or go down? I imagine levels have not yet stabilized.

 

[Cataceous]

Total testosterone translates to 1,066 ng/dL. Tru-T calculated free testosterone is about 35 ng/dL, a little above the normal healthy range of 16-31. You probably have not fully stabilized, though I wouldn't expect large changes if the protocol is maintained. With your decent free testosterone a dose reduction is certainly an option. I'm also wondering if your low free T3 is contributing to sub-optimal results..

 

[Chrander]

Total testosterone translates to 1,066 ng/dL. Tru-T calculated free testosterone is about 35 ng/dL, a little above the normal healthy range of 16-31. You probably have not fully stabilized, though I wouldn't expect large changes if the protocol is maintained. With your decent free testosterone a dose reduction is certainly an option. I'm also wondering if your low free T3 is contributing to sub-optimal results..

I will continue using the same dosages.

Regarding my t3. It has always been that low. Is there anything I can do other then supplementing? What is the positive effect of it being higher I might ask? Something I should ask my doc about?

Really looking forward feeling better. This year has been a living hell for me. Sadly..

 

[DragonBits]

I will continue using the same dosages.

Regarding my t3. It has always been that low. Is there anything I can do other then supplementing? What is the positive effect of it being higher I might ask? Something I should ask my doc about?

Really looking forward feeling better. This year has been a living hell for me. Sadly..

hypothyroidism or low T3 can negatively affect libido and energy levels.

I am not a fan of "optimising " T3 to the upper part of the range, but you are below normal, which is more significant.

First, I would make sure you get enough selenium and iodine in your diet. Be very careful about supplementing iodine, high levels suppress thyroid function. I try and eat 1 brazil nut a day for selenium, since I use iodized salt and sometimes eat seaweed, I expect I get enough iodine from that. Once I did supplement too much iodine and my TSH started to climb and T3 fall.

If you can test Reverse T3 and thyroid antibodies I suggest you discuss that with your doctor and see if they can test for them, especially thyroid antibodies. I don't recall if you said what country you live in, reverse T3 may not easily be available and it's controversial if it's all that important. Some docs say yes, many don't think it's important. Though my reverse T3 is 14.6 which most people think is good, so that is another reason I don't think much about it.

 

[Chrander]

hypothyroidism or low T3 can negatively affect libido and energy levels.

I am not a fan of "optimising " T3 to the upper part of the range, but you are below normal, which is more significant.

First, I would make sure you get enough selenium and iodine in your diet. Be very careful about supplementing iodine, high levels suppress thyroid function. I try and eat 1 brazil nut a day for selenium, since I use iodized salt and sometimes eat seaweed, I expect I get enough iodine from that. Once I did supplement too much iodine and my TSH started to climb and T3 fall.

If you can test Reverse T3 and thyroid antibodies I suggest you discuss that with your doctor and see if they can test for them, especially thyroid antibodies. I don't recall if you said what country you live in, reverse T3 may not easily be available and it's controversial if it's all that important. Some docs say yes, many don't think it's important. Though my reverse T3 is 14.6 which most people think is good, so that is another reason I don't think much about it.

Do you think my SHBG can be lowered just by waiting and letting my levels stabilise? Anything to worry about?

Should I wait couple of months before adjusting my dosage? More/less? Now I use one bottle over 7 weeks (140mg every week). Maby going for 8 weeks if it correlates with better results..

Really really looking forward to feel better.

 

[DragonBits]

My shbg has gone from ~40 when not on trt to as high as 73 while on TRT, recently it was 57.2

I don't pay attention to shbg other that to occasionally measure it. So I don't know how you can influence SHBG levels as it's a complex of different hormones in a feedback look.

From the NIH.

Estrogen and related steroids, thyroid hormone and insulin increase SHBG levels. SHBG decreases in response to androgens, and in the presence of hypothyroidism, and insulin resistance.

Endocrinology of the Aging Male

I would still look at why your FT3 is below range, and how you might feel if you can increase it though diet or thyroid hormones.

You can fool around with your nebido dosing protocol all you want, but I do the injection once every 10 weeks or so and for me I don't want to have to constantly tweak it.

 

[Chrander]

My shbg has gone from ~40 when not on trt to as high as 73 while on TRT, recently it was 57.2

I don't pay attention to shbg other that to occasionally measure it. So I don't know how you can influence SHBG levels as it's a complex of different hormones in a feedback look.

From the NIH.

Estrogen and related steroids, thyroid hormone and insulin increase SHBG levels. SHBG decreases in response to androgens, and in the presence of hypothyroidism, and insulin resistance.

Endocrinology of the Aging Male

I would still look at why your FT3 is below range, and how you might feel if you can increase it though diet or thyroid hormones.

You can fool around with your nebido dosing protocol all you want, but I do the injection once every 10 weeks or so and for me I don't want to have to constantly tweak it.

Love your feedback Sir. Really appreciate it.

I will continue using 140mg every week and test again in February. I imagine the blood levels is more stable then. I also think the levels will increase some more also? I might decrease the dosage somewhat if necessary.

I inject on Sundays in the morning and test Thursdays. Cant test the day before since its in the weekend..

I will look into increasing my free t3. I have to let you know that I have been fasting a lot and, only for the last year, been restricting my calories a bit too much. Been having this bad habit restricting my calories too much, only to have this "all inn" days with a LOT of caloriers. Almost like an eating disorder.. It could have had an effect on my t3 levels I imagine? Training to eat, not eating for performance (like I do now).

But I need to say that my t3 levels have been low the last decade. Been using clomid and nolva and a whole list of other regiments the last 10years before going on trt.

I get more horny the day after loading carbs. But libido is not where I want it to be. I get hard, especially when I am thinking about sexy stuff, but if not I just get medium hard and I am not that sensitive.

 

[Chrander]

New bloods are in. Have listed previous tests leading up to this one;

F-test: 5.1 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 34 8- 35 nmol/l . (980 ng/dl)
Prolactin 439* <700
Free t3: 3,8 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 13,3 . 11-23
SHBG: 67* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.07

7 weeks has gone by after changing to 140mg Nebido (56-57 IU) every Sunday. Changing between right and left shoulder.

Bloods was taken this Thursday (7,5 weeks);
21 December;

F-test: 5.8 2,3- 9,9
S-test: 37 8- 35 nmol/l .
Prolactin: 132 <700
Free t3: 3,4 . 3,5- 6,5
Free t4: 14.6 . 11-23
SHBG: 64* . 8-60
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.10. 0-0,17
B-EVF: 0.50 0,4-0,5
P-TSH: 1,6 0,2-0,4

NEW bloods taken 13 February

F-test: X 2,3- 9,9 results coming later. (correct? 40*10/54= 7,4)
S-test: 40 8- 35 nmol/l . Higher
Prolactin: 185 <700. Higher
Free t3: 4 . 3,5- 6,5. Higher
Free t4: 12,7 . 11-23 Lower
SHBG: 54 . 8-60 Lower
S-estradiol-17beta: 0.15. 0-0,17. Higher
B-EVF: 0.51 0,4-0,5 Higher. (Hematocrit)
P-TSH: 2,6 0,2-0,4 Higher

Serum test have risen from 37 to 40. If my calculation is correct, then my Free testosterone is 7,4. SHBG have declined from 64 to 54.

Still using Nebido 56-57iu every Sunday. Working like a charm. No hassle at all.

Feeling better and looking forward feeling even better. Sex drive is coming along slowly, but steady. Ejaculation volume is good if I have not had sex for some days.

I might even lower the dosage if anyone recommend me doing so..

Not sure if my levels is stable yet..

Please comment

 

[Cataceous]

Tru-T free testosterone is about 39 ng/dL (16-31). If those were my numbers I would lower the dose some, but many guys are happy to stay at higher levels.

 

[Chrander]

Tru-T free testosterone is about 39 ng/dL (16-31). If those were my numbers I would lower the dose some, but many guys are happy to stay at higher levels.

How did you calculate?

I do not know if my levels are stable yet, but I might do so. Maby 50 iu, then one bottle last for 8 weeks instead of 7.

I experience increase in muscle mass, that is a good ting. My head is more stable (mood and so on) but still chasing more sexdrive.

 

[Cataceous]

The Tru-T calculator is the best way to determine free testosterone apart from getting one of the more expensive tests, such as equilibrium dialysis. Here's the link: TruT Free Testosterone Calculator by FPT

 

[Chrander]

Hi there.

I have been using 54 IU Nebido every Sunday since I adjusted from 56-57IU over Christmas. Feeling a lot more stable at this moment.

I will take a new sample late next week to see where my levels are. I know everyone responds different to different dosages. My dosage is not high at all. 1000mg Nebido has 630mg testosterone in it, compared to Enanthate with around 70%. So my real testosterone dosage per week is not more than 85mg (630mg/400iu)*54IU = 85mg.

People using 140mg enanthate is getting; 98mg...

Now, let me see what my levels is this week, then adjust if necessary. If I were to change the dosage next Sunday, how long will it take to reach the new levels? 10+ weeks maby? I hate using a long ester, but that is what I can get from my doc.

My sex drive/ lebido is not optimal. But I can have sex. Using 5-10mg cialis from time to time also. I am not "horny" like most people talk about when using testosterone.

 

[Chrander]

New results in.

My SHBG is good. But my S-testosterone is high. How can that be, same day testing. The dosage is lower than last (54 iu). Can it be the slow ester building up more? Very frustrating..

Previous bloods (february) was with 56-57iu every Sunday. I decreased the dosage to 54iu that following Sunday. So its been 8,5 weeks using the lower dosage, and the S-testosterone has increased...

Its difficult to dial in with Nebido. And when I do an adjustment, how many weeks must I expect to wait until new dose corresponds to a stable testosterone value?

Could the "high" testosterone be the reason I have some problems with libido and having a good quality boner? I get one, and hard, but it can get soft and not that sensitive at times. Could be psychological thing also, since I had some bad experiences before (it did not work..). I now use 10mg cialis every time. I can fuck hard and good as hell, but it can get soft fast also.. It happen last Sunday. I was hard and fucked great, then she sat on me and I got freaked when I got soft fast..

Lower the dosage to 50iu?

 

[Cataceous]

I'm not too surprised. Your responsiveness to exogenous testosterone appears to be similar to mine. I was initially on 100 mg per week of T cypionate (70 mg T), which put serum levels around 1,250 ng/dL (43 nMol/L). I'm now on the equivalent of 53 mg T cypionate (37 mg T) per week, with better results, and by mixing esters, my daily serum peak is still over 800 ng/dL (28 nMol/L).

I agree that it must be very difficult to dial in with Nebido. In theory it can take months (4-5 half-lives of almost a month) to stabilize. Much better would be to dial in with a shorter ester and then switch to Nebido.

 

[Chrander]

Since I only have Nebido available for me I cant mix esters..

I respond very "good" at exogenous testosterone it seems yes.

I hope to solve my libido problem as well.

Should I decrease my dosage to 50iu, or even lower? And wait 3 months to take new sample. It takes SO long time! The last year have been a rollercoaster for sure. And 10y + with clomid and other medicaments.. I am really looking forward to have it all sorted out

 

[Cataceous]

With those numbers I would go with a lower dose. Assume a rough proportionality between serum testosterone and dose. There's not firm agreement on target levels, but I'd aim for total testosterone of 28-30 nMol/L, which still puts calculated free testosterone in the upper part of the healthy normal range. Although top-of-range and higher levels may be better for body composition and athleticism, there's speculation that other parameters—libido, motivation, mood, lipids, etc.—may not be as good if you're well over your optimum natural level. The proportionality suggests a new weekly dose of 34 IU. The problem with starting high and lowering the dose is that you may initially have hypogonadal symptoms. Anecdotal reports suggest that if you can get through this then you may have better results. Nebido makes this challenging because the process is so much longer.

Potentially you can make things go a little faster by skipping some doses, which is the converse of preloading when going up with the dose. There's guesswork involved because you must assume a particular half-life for your serum testosterone. For example, let's say you want to drop from 47 to 30 nMol/L, and assume a half-life of 21 days. In theory this takes two weeks, which means skipping two doses before resuming at the new lower dose rate.

 

[Chrander]

How would you do it?

I can handle the "downs" if it makes me the time to stable lower levels shorter. I have a high demanding job, so I am not very happy about it, but I do whatever it takes at this moment.

Should I try 40 iu? To high? I saw you wrote 34. Want to be in upper level, but not too high. Feeling good and libido is pri 1 at this moment. But body-composition and fitness is a very high nr 2. I am a VERY active/fitness person. Work out 6-7 times a weed road cycling and mtb, and strength training.

You can see my previous test also, lower levels at higher iu, but those were lower since the "build up" have not happen at that point? Now the dose/test value is more correct I assume.

How long could this "down" period last and when does it start? If I am mentally prepared I can handle it even better.

Is it best to lower dosages tomorrow, or skip dosages as you also mentioned?

Really looking forward to your post mr. I love that you take your time responding. Helps me out soo much.

 

[Cataceous]

Ideas on subjective outcomes are based on anecdotes, so, for example, you won't necessarily have a down period with a dose reduction, particularly since you haven't been on the protocol for so long. But it's good to be prepared mentally, so that if you have problems you might be more inclined to give things time to settle down.

What I would do with these numbers is skip two weeks of dosing and then resume at 35 IU. But it's not as though anyone can say in advance with certainty that 40 IU is worse or better. In any case, the skipped doses should significantly reduce the time to stabilize serum testosterone at a lower, more physiological level. Even then, it can take at least a couple months for your system to adapt to the point that you can fairly judge the results.

 

[Chrander]

So then I skip my dosage tomorrow, skip next Sunday, then the following Sunday I will start using 35iu (or 40 ish). Correct?

I might even feel better during this "down" period. I think I feel better at a little lower dosage. Looking forward to it.

When should I then plan to take a new sample? Late July? I should then expect values in the upper range.

Have a great day. Feeling happy now after talking with you sir. thumbs up!

 

[Cataceous]

Of course I'm just telling you what I might do in a similar situation, and why—how you proceed is still up to you and your doctor.

Mid- or later July should allow adequate time to stabilize and evaluate the new protocol. I hope it goes well! Do report your results if you have time.