Help me dial in my protocol Nebido

[Chrander]

Better results in that you're less likely to have side effects from high estradiol around the peaks, and less likely to go hypogonadal before your next injection. The "spike up" and long drift down of testosterone are precisely what allows peak estradiol to become excessive. Nebido fairs better with HCT because the dose is so low. If you injected only 75 mg a week of T cypionate you'd get similar results. But you're comparing to guys injecting 100-200 mg per week.

Really nice to see you guys respond. Thanks a lot.

I can do just fine on 2ml every 4 weeks. But I do have to know ballpark what my levels should be before injecting. I was told waiting until the levels falls down to 15-20 nmol/ area before injecting 4ml. I imagine it has to be a little higher when injecting "only" 2ml.

 

[Cataceous]

... But I do have to know ballpark what my levels should be before injecting. I was told waiting until the levels falls down to 15-20 nmol/ area before injecting 4ml. I imagine it has to be a little higher when injecting "only" 2ml.

Yes, exactly. With more frequent injections the troughs are higher, while the peaks are lower. So you would expect trough serum levels to be a higher when injecting 2 mL at twice the frequency of 4 mL. It's hard to predict how much higher since you were over-range for your early tests. But the measurements do suggest that a dose reduction would be reasonable, because for overall health you may want average total testosterone to be more like 28-35 nMol/L, and lower if your SHBG continues to drop.

If it were me, I would inject weekly until I had the dose/response thing figured out—with minimal fluctuations. That's used to give an estimate for average serum testosterone at any dose. And from there one can predict the peak testosterone from trough values if one switches to less frequent injections.

 

[DragonBits]

Better results in that you're less likely to have side effects from high estradiol around the peaks, and less likely to go hypogonadal before your next injection. The "spike up" and long drift down of testosterone are precisely what allows peak estradiol to become excessive. Nebido fairs better with HCT because the dose is so low. If you injected only 75 mg a week of T cypionate you'd get similar results. But you're comparing to guys injecting 100-200 mg per week.

It's rare for me to get high estradiol, I just don't strongly aromatize testosterone.

As an example, most recently when my total T at close to a peak was 1492 while my E2 sensitive was 32.6 My shbg is fairly high at 57.2 so that is also a factor. For some reason, back in 2018 when I first started back on Nebido after 16 days my total T was 1389 and E2 was 56.2, but likely my shbg was 36. It only happened once and that is the lowest my shbg ever was and the highest my E2 has ever measured.

Most of the time my E2 is between 14-25, so I don't worry about high E2.

As far as falling to too low a point, you have a valid point at least for me, I have been trying to push how long before I inject Nebido, going as long as 14 weeks (but I supplemented with a T cream the last 3 weeks). Recent blood test at 75 days had my total T at 541 without anything else, which is certainly not hypogonadal but lower than I like.

My solution will be to either shorten the time between injections or supplement with another testosterone product. Right now I am monitoring psa levels which seem to jump up and down so much I am now thinking some sort of prostate prostatitis. At first I though it had something to do with hormone levels, so I resisted doing anything odd, but it seems more likely that the psa level changes were due to prostatitis, though I have no symptoms.

 

[Chrander]

Yes, exactly. With more frequent injections the troughs are higher, while the peaks are lower. So you would expect trough serum levels to be a higher when injecting 2 mL at twice the frequency of 4 mL. It's hard to predict how much higher since you were over-range for your early tests. But the measurements do suggest that a dose reduction would be reasonable, because for overall health you may want average total testosterone to be more like 28-35 nMol/L, and lower if your SHBG continues to drop.

If it were me, I would inject weekly until I had the dose/response thing figured out—with minimal fluctuations. That's used to give an estimate for average serum testosterone at any dose. And from there one can predict the peak testosterone from trough values if one switches to less frequent injections.

If I was to inject weekly from of now (say Sundays or Mondays depending on where I am and convenience. This should have little impact on the values due to the long halflife I imagine) when would you have started this protocol? It will take a while for the levels to build back up when injecting a smaller dosage more frequent. I read one on this forum injects 140mg EW and does testing in 8 weeks to see the values. 140mg is ca 4ml every 7 weeks.

My value was 34 nmol/l this Thursday.

I really need my SHBG to go back down, but that I imagine will happen when tamoxifen is out of my system. Ended yesterday.

More "hassle" to inject weekly, but every one else can do it, so can I..

 

[Cataceous]

... Recent blood test at 75 days had my total T at 541 without anything else, which is certainly not hypogonadal but lower than I like.
...

On the Tru-T scale of 16-31 you're at 15.7 ng/dL with that T reading and the high SHBG.

 

[Cataceous]

If I was to inject weekly from of now (say Sundays or Mondays depending on where I am and convenience. This should have little impact on the values due to the long halflife I imagine) when would you have started this protocol? It will take a while for the levels to build back up when injecting a smaller dosage more frequent. I read one on this forum injects 140mg EW and does testing in 8 weeks to see the values. 140mg is ca 4ml every 7 weeks.

My value was 34 nmol/l this Thursday.

I really need my SHBG to go back down, but that I imagine will happen when tamoxifen is out of my system. Ended yesterday.

More "hassle" to inject weekly, but every one else can do it, so can I..

That's the big drawback with T undecanoate. It takes a very long time to stabilize, as in at least three or four months. But with your previous doses it may be more like half that to get fairly stable. Just allow for the possibility that serum testosterone could rise a little more even after a couple months on a weekly injection protocol.

Given the touch of gyno, I think more frequent injections, and probably lower average dosing too, is the way to go.

If you think weekly injections are a hassle: I am doing two injections a day of four different things. At least it's subQ. Still a major hassle, but the good results keep me motivated.

 

[DragonBits]

On the Tru-T scale of 16-31 you're at 15.7 ng/dL with that T reading and the high SHBG.

Thanks, I was wondering what Tru-T would say, I ran out of free tries on the calculator. As I said, it kind of felt too low. But I did't want to fool around with adding more T, my previous PSA test on 8/17 was 4.8, then on 9/17 it was 4.5 with total T of 584 then fell to 3.7 on 10/11 the day my total T was 541.

I am only assuming my shbg was still around 57, last time I tested that was on 8/17 when my total T was 1492, the test at 15.7 total T was on 10/11. FWIW, my free T was 6.6, right at the bottom.

At first blush I thought the falling PSA had something to do with the falling T level, BUT I also took an antibiotic Clindamycin for a second degree burn on 9/4, so more than likely it was the antibiotic.

I might be able to determine the real reason PSA goes up and down in the next few months.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks, I was wondering what Tru-T would say, I ran out of free tries on the calculator. ...

The trick to getting around that is to delete the Tru-T.org cookies. The method is browser-dependent. In Safari for Mac, for example, you go to the Privacy tab of the Preferences window, select "Manage Website Data...", find "Tru-T.org" in the list, select it and then hit the "Remove" button.

 

[DragonBits]

The trick to getting around that is to delete the Tru-T.org cookies. The method is browser-dependent. In Safari for Mac, for example, you go to the Privacy tab of the Preferences window, select "Manage Website Data...", find "Tru-T.org" in the list, select it and then hit the "Remove" button.

Thanks, I never tried to individually erase a cookie, I just wipe them all out or use a different bwower.

 

[Chrander]

That's the big drawback with T undecanoate. It takes a very long time to stabilize, as in at least three or four months. But with your previous doses it may be more like half that to get fairly stable. Just allow for the possibility that serum testosterone could rise a little more even after a couple months on a weekly injection protocol.

Given the touch of gyno, I think more frequent injections, and probably lower average dosing too, is the way to go.

If you think weekly injections are a hassle: I am doing two injections a day of four different things. At least it's subQ. Still a major hassle, but the good results keep me motivated.

OK. thanks a lot mr.

I will start 140mg tomorrow and test again in 8-10 weeks (testing on Thursdays or Fridays). Will also try the BD 1ml (100 units) 1 inch insulin needle (shoulder or legs where I have no fat). No AI and no tamoxifen.

Since it was 34 nmol/l last three days ago it may be a fine starting point for the weekly 140mg dose.

 

[Chrander]

Started 56 IU (0.56 ml) Nebido (140mg) this last Sunday. I plan on doing weekly injections (Sundays or Mondays).

Last Tamoxifen tablet was on Saturday.

Really looking forward to see if my SHBG decreases. Hoping for my libido to come back, and more stability regarding mood swings.

 

[Cataceous]

Started 56 IU (0.56 ml) Nebido (140mg) this last Sunday. I plan on doing weekly injections (Sundays or Mondays).

Last Tamoxifen tablet was on Saturday.

Really looking forward to see if my SHBG decreases. Hoping for my libido to come back, and more stability regarding mood swings.

I could be misinterpreting your first post, but doesn't 140 mg/week represent a large dose increase? And you were already going over-range with the lower dosing?

 

[Chrander]

I could be misinterpreting your first post, but doesn't 140 mg/week represent a large dose increase? And you were already going over-range with the lower dosing?

140mg is 1000mg per 7 weeks.

Since I was set under an unconcventional dosing regime (read first post) I recon I had a large buildup in my system. Since I have not been on the standard 4m ew 10 weeks its hard for me to say if the dosage is higher or less. I moght have it all wrong sir. In total ist been 19W and a total of 4*4ml (w1,w3,w6,w10), and now 140mg.. Hope this helps.

Please fill me inn if I should correct my dosing/regime until next time.

Thanks.

 

[Cataceous]

140mg is 1000mg per 7 weeks.

Since I was set under an unconcventional dosing regime (read first post) I recon I had a large buildup in my system. Since I have not been on the standard 4m ew 10 weeks its hard for me to say if the dosage is higher or less. I moght have it all wrong sir. In total ist been 19W and a total of 4*4ml (w1,w3,w6,w10), and now 140mg.. Hope this helps.

Please fill me inn if I should correct my dosing/regime until next time.

Thanks.

The line I misinterpreted is "4ml split into two injections sites: w0, w3 and w6, followed by an injection at w11." I was thinking you were also splitting the 4 mL among the different weeks. But taking 1,000 mg each time explains the high testosterone—you'd been averaging over 200 mg per week. So the current dose of 140 mg/week is more typical for starting out, equivalent to 126 mg T cypionate, for example. Let us know how it goes...

 

[Chrander]

The line I misinterpreted is "4ml split into two injections sites: w0, w3 and w6, followed by an injection at w11." I was thinking you were also splitting the 4 mL among the different weeks. But taking 1,000 mg each time explains the high testosterone—you'd been averaging over 200 mg per week. So the current dose of 140 mg/week is more typical for starting out, equivalent to 126 mg T cypionate, for example. Let us know how it goes...

I see. hehe

I imagine it will take some time to build back up, when injecting undecanoate in smaller dosages every week. My level was 34 nmol/l three days before injecting 140mg for the first time. I hope the next weeks do not get "hard" and swingy. I have read undecanoate is less "potent" (lower active test per mg) than cyp and other shorter ester.

You still think 140 EW is a good dosage for me to get up in the "higher" normal over time? How long should I wait until next blood sample you think?

Have a great day sir.

 

[Cataceous]

I see. hehe

I imagine it will take some time to build back up, when injecting undecanoate in smaller dosages every week. My level was 34 nmol/l three days before injecting 140mg for the first time. I hope the next weeks do not get "hard" and swingy. I have read undecanoate is less "potent" (lower active test per mg) than cyp and other shorter ester.

You still think 140 EW is a good dosage for me to get up in the "higher" normal over time? How long should I wait until next blood sample you think?

Have a great day sir.

Regarding the various testosterone esters, I wouldn't characterize the differences as pertaining to potency or activity. Instead it's that the larger esters release testosterone more slowly and contain less testosterone as a fraction of the total weight. Undecanoate is 63% testosterone, compared to 70% for cypionate, 72% for enanthate and 84% for propionate. Regardless of ester, it's a simple matter to adjust doses to deliver the desired amount of testosterone.

Because there's not enough information to determine your likely response to any given dose I'd say 140 mg/week TU still seems reasonable. I would try to wait at least two months for lab work, even then acknowledging that your serum testosterone might continue to rise for a bit longer.

 

[DragonBits]

Regarding the various testosterone esters, I wouldn't characterize the differences as pertaining to potency or activity. Instead it's that the larger esters release testosterone more slowly and contain less testosterone as a fraction of the total weight. Undecanoate is 63% testosterone, compared to 70% for cypionate, 72% for enanthate and 84% for propionate. Regardless of ester, it's a simple matter to adjust doses to deliver the desired amount of testosterone.

Because there's not enough information to determine your likely response to any given dose I'd say 140 mg/week TU still seems reasonable. I would try to wait at least two months for lab work, even then acknowledging that your serum testosterone might continue to rise for a bit longer.

I have done measurements at 16 days and 20 days post Nebido injection, my total T was 1389 and 1492 respectively.

So for me using the recommended 4 ml Nebido total T continued to rise after 16 days, though I only have those two measurements. I feel peak is right around 3 weeks.

I am not sure what happens with you inject 140 mg, do you think the time of the peak remains the same?

 

[Cataceous]

...
I am not sure what happens with you inject 140 mg, do you think the time of the peak remains the same?

Obviously at steady state on weekly injections the serum testosterone peak must occur during the week. Saying when is guesswork, and my guess is midweek. But it should be moot because the variations are going to be minor, only a few percent above and below the mean, at most. With flat hormone levels, the measurements of total testosterone and SHBG at steady state are useful because they allow you to estimate your average response to any dose of any ester. Subsequent trough measurements with shorter esters then allow you to estimate the peak values.

 

[DragonBits]

Obviously at steady state on weekly injections the serum testosterone peak must occur during the week. Saying when is guesswork, and my guess is midweek. But it should be moot because the variations are going to be minor, only a few percent above and below the mean, at most. With flat hormone levels, the measurements of total testosterone and SHBG at steady state are useful because they allow you to estimate your average response to any dose of any ester. Subsequent trough measurements with shorter esters then allow you to estimate the peak values.

Let me simplify my question.

One initial injection, at 1000 mg nebido, I tend to peak at ~20 days.
One initial injection, at 140 mg Nebido, would the peak for me be at ~20 days?

I specify "me" just to acknowledge some other individual may react a little different.

BTW, I wonder if anyone has ever measured total T within a few percentage points despite measuring at markedly different times post injection.

 

[Cataceous]

Let me simplify my question.

One initial injection, at 1000 mg nebido, I tend to peak at ~20 days.
One initial injection, at 140 mg Nebido, would the peak for me be at ~20 days?

I specify "me" just to acknowledge some other individual may react a little different.

BTW, I wonder if anyone has ever measured total T within a few percentage points despite measuring at markedly different times post injection.

If one assumed a linear change with respect to dose then it would say the timing of the peaks would not change at the lower dose. However, there's some evidence that the effective half-life of a testosterone ester decreases with dose. I have a related hypothesis based on a simple model, and it says that the effective half-life changes as the cube root of the dose ratio. If it's valid to apply this to time-to-peak then it argues for the peak occurring sooner at the smaller dose, maybe more like 10-15 days.