HCG Efficacy: Should We Measure 17-OH-progesterone to Titrate HCG Dose?

[Formula364]

Not sure that it works that way. My take is that if your HCG protocol is adequate, then no "backfilling" of some of these upstream hormones (pregnenolone, DHEA) would even be necessary. But it's not clear to me why one would choose 17-OH-progesterone over other upstream hormones like pregnenolone or progesterone to titrate HCG. Supplementing pregnenolone would of course muddy the picture.

IMO, the back-filling would be subject to new patient who is deficient (back-filling helps speed recovery), or, for longer term TRT subject who might be slowly deficient.

Pregnenolone is not a reliable marker. Progesterone is slightly more $$. 170H-Progesterone sits atop the Cortisol cascade or minimally converts to androgens. If the test is more reliable, less costly, past the LH (hCG) conversions, and is further downstream, it makes good sense.

 

[TMI]

Okay, so in the new TRT/HCG patient scenario, you backfill with pregnenolone/DHEA initially. But then, to titrate HCG, you'd want to discontinue pregnenolone/DHEA, right? That would make sense, as far as I understand this stuff.

17-OH isn't available yet, but progesterone is much less expensive than pregnenolone on discountedlabs:

 

[Formula364]

Okay, so in the new TRT/HCG patient scenario, you backfill with pregnenolone/DHEA initially. But then, to titrate HCG, you'd want to discontinue pregnenolone/DHEA, right? That would make sense, as far as I understand this stuff.

17-OH isn't available yet, but progesterone is much less expensive than pregnenolone on discountedlabs:
View attachment 2578

I'm no expert - a noob provoking conversation.
Yeah, that's the way I understand it, too. Helps with adrenal fatigue starting out.
Sorry about inverting the costs.

 

[TMI]

No problem, it's interesting stuff and sorting it out isn't simple.

 

[trt4me]

I still have to take dhea even though I'm on hcg for months already. If I don't it goes down to around 105 on labcorp.
I stopped taking Preg because it seems there is no good way to measure it. I didn't feel any different not taking it. .

 

[Speed]

I can confirm this by today's bloods.

On 25IM ED for almost 6 months now my bloodwork looks like this (was subq but switched to IM because on last test a month ago T was only 500 ng/dl Maybe was not a problem with subQ method, because first time when I checked labs on subQ and this same protocol, it was around 1000 like on this test bellow )>>

1.Feritin 74,7 ECLIA 30,0 - 400,0 ng/mL (gave around 250ml of blood last month )

2. T 32,1 CLIA 5,5 - 25,2 nmol/L (that is 923 ng/dl )

3. Estradiol 44,1 CLIA to 56,0 pg/mL (not sensitive)

4. 17-OH-progesteron 0,45 ELISA 0,5 - 2,1 ng/mL

5. SHBG 13,75 CLIA 13,0 - 71,0 nmol/L

Because 17-OH progesteron is low, I'm thinking about LOWWWW hcg dose (or pregnenolone hmm...), maybe only 125 or 250IU 2x week because as you know, last year on it I had a terrible E2 problems because of it.

Maaybe to drop T to 20mg IM daily to compensate for E2 increase of HCG

On 60mg of t subq + 500IU of HCG my T was around 400 only and e2 was 60 or more I think

 

[Nelson Vergel]

You guys may want to watch this. I have a slide at the end on HCG and estradiol. I do not have much of a E2 boost from HCG, so it depends on the person.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I apologize for my short replies lately. I am lecturing around the country and it has been hectic for the past 20 days. Hopefully things will return to normal soon so that I can be more present in this, my community.

Thanks to all moderators and other active members for keeping things going!!

 

[Speed]

Nelson, you don't need to apologize for anything. You gave us all too much already. Thank you for that

 

[Vince Carter]

Today was my 3d shot of 500iu and the last week and a half let's just say Im not dealing with daily stress very well, much more angry, more easily angered, at work predominantly where I'm saturated with idiots. Perhaps an increase in ITT than Estradiol? I have labs set up for two weeks from now, I'll continue 500iu E3.5D plus my Cyp @ 28mg/D and pull Sensitive E2, DHEA, and Total T

 

[Speed]

I will pull bloods in two weeks again. Started yesterday with 250-300IU 2x week.

I feel great today. Maybe placebo, maybe just a good day
Will see what will my estradiol tell me on this dose.

Without HCG on 25mg ED Im is 42

I reduced T to 20 MG ed few days ago to compensate for E2 increase from HCG.

This is only a good theory. I'll report here or on ******** group my results two or more weeks from today...

 

[Rus]

(sorry for my english). I made use of hcg (low and high doses), and other drugs (i'm about to create a thread explaining my issue) and in the end of the "protocol", my E2 stayed normal but my e1 (estrone) and progesterone stayed very high for a long time. How to lower these high levels of progesterone and estrone?

 

[Vince Carter]

Now that I've been running 500iu E3.5D for close to 4 weeks I tested DHEA-S to see if there was some increased activity from the HCG acting on all the other hormones up/down stream. I thought if this is effective I'd see something in my DHEA-S value.

 

[Speed]

Vince Carter ? What are the results ?

 

[Vince Carter]

Vince Carter ? What are the results ?

I should have said pending results

 

[Speed]

I'll also get mine 17-progesterone on monday. (it was a litle bellow range on only T) I did test now after two weeks of 300IU Hcg every 3.5d. I'm interested in prog. levels now on that protocol. I got more acne on HCG, les anxiety, more calm perfect memory, but maybe it's just because of my Conhoplasty nose surgery. I now breathe with full lungs. I'll report my results in two days, then quit HCG and see how I feel without it.
Also Vince, what did you feel on HCG, compared only to T ?


P. S. I need to open my thread in "labs" section to have notes there, bit I'm too lazy for that tonight

 

[Speed]

I got re results of 17-OH-Progesterone. It's even lower than before. Test was done after two weeks of 300IU hcg 2x week.

BEfore it was 0.45 (no HCG) , now 0.42(0.5-2.1) LOL


I'm quiting HCG

 

[Vince Carter]

300iu is still rather low dose of HCG, according to Nelson.

 

[Speed]

Yes, but anyway. I got more acne, testicles grow bigger (but they don't shrink much without it also). I also get a moon face on it. I'm now off, maybe will experiment with 500IU in the future but I doubt...

 

[Vince Carter]

A lot of us just don't "like" HCG.