Discouraged with TRT

[Daveleeander]

I’m 69 and lost sensitivity about a year ago. I no longer can have orgasm during sex, but still have some good feeling and a very high libido. I started having problems a couple years ago ( I’ve been on trt for 11 years now), and I’ve used HCG (used from BBC 500 iu/wk to 1500 iu/week for 12 weeks with no help. I’ve ran my E2 any where from crashed at 10 (never again) to the mid 90’s, and everywhere in between (usually a month to 6 weeks at a time). I’ve never been able to tell the difference between any of the levels (10,30,40,60,80,90) other than the low level of 10 and less than 10. Joints hurt like hell then and won’t go there again. No AI for this ole boy. I started at 120 mg/wk with 1 injection the first 5 years and everything was great. Icc c was tearing pussy up! Then Ed started, so went to viagra (stuffs me up too bad) then 10 mg cialis which worked well. I tried tri mix also but it didn’t do anything for the sensitivity. It did however, make my wife sore and thinking about it for a day or two . Then a couple years ago sensitivity left. I’ve just about given up on getting it back. I’ve got a good 62 yr old woman for a wife (she’s on HRT and horny as a bag of toads) who will work around the problem and we keep each other satisfied. I’m currently doing a stack of 15 mg cyp/15mg primo/and 30 mg NPP three times a week. I’m enjoying the gym, my wife and living. If you ever find the sensitivity cure, let me know. I know of at least a dozen others in the same boat who would love to feel it again.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

A few ideas for you:
- DHEA helps many of us
- Vitamin C and Garlic can't hurt and seem to help. I take about 1.5 grams of vitamin C per day and swallow two garlic clove bits. Also, smoking drastically reduces the body's Vitamin C level and C is crucial for blood vessel health among other things. You likely need more C given your smoking. Consider switching to nicotine lozenges. Apparently a lot of the mechnism for the damage from cigs is Vitamin C depletion.
- A good nitric oxide supplement. I use N1o1 but beet root powder is worth a try
- You might try cutting your T dose. A simple way to tell if that may help is to just go off of the T for a week and see what happens.
- Check out the threads on PT-141
- Sprinting or sled pushing!!! No one wants to do it but I have noticed a clear EQ benefit when I do a HIIT workout
- Do at least 10 mins per day of treadmill walking at 4 MPH and full incline. Add in more from there but at least do that.
- PT-141 as described in other threads
- A low dose of Chasteberry every other day may help if prolactin is part of your problem.
- If you are a DHT responder, proviron or masteron at a low dose may help.

Try HCG, but more importantly, don't put conditions on what solutions you will accept. If you have to inject ten things, so be it. You're trying to do something which is far from easy and it will be crucial for you and your GF's quality of life going forward, so you have to have a mentality of doing absolutely whatever it takes and trying everything you possibly can, and anything that is counter to your goal has to go. Period. On a similar note, the cancer sticks have to go. You can't undermine your chances of success with counterproductive things, and cigs are well-known to damage the endothelium which is the exact opposite of what you want.

 

[Seagal]

A few ideas for you:
- DHEA helps many of us
- Vitamin C and Garlic can't hurt and seem to help. I take about 1.5 grams of vitamin C per day and swallow two garlic clove bits. Also, smoking drastically reduces the body's Vitamin C level and C is crucial for blood vessel health among other things. You likely need more C given your smoking. Consider switching to nicotine lozenges. Apparently a lot of the mechnism for the damage from cigs is Vitamin C depletion.
- A good nitric oxide supplement. I use N1o1 but beet root powder is worth a try
- You might try cutting your T dose. A simple way to tell if that may help is to just go off of the T for a week and see what happens.
- Check out the threads on PT-141
- Sprinting or sled pushing!!! No one wants to do it but I have noticed a clear EQ benefit when I do a HIIT workout
- Do at least 10 mins per day of treadmill walking at 4 MPH and full incline. Add in more from there but at least do that.
- PT-141 as described in other threads
- A low dose of Chasteberry every other day may help if prolactin is part of your problem.
- If you are a DHT responder, proviron or masteron at a low dose may help.

Try HCG, but more importantly, don't put conditions on what solutions you will accept. If you have to inject ten things, so be it. You're trying to do something which is far from easy and it will be crucial for you and your GF's quality of life going forward, so you have to have a mentality of doing absolutely whatever it takes and trying everything you possibly can, and anything that is counter to your goal has to go. Period. On a similar note, the cancer sticks have to go. You can't undermine your chances of success with counterproductive things, and cigs are well-known to damage the endothelium which is the exact opposite of what you want.

And exclude high prolactin.

 

[Gunner@1911]

Hey Gunner, I'm 68 and new to TRT; I started with gels which didn't absorb - I then started TE injections April 6. Some recent bloodwork showed that my Total T had increased from 320 to around 700 (in the trough). I inject 40mgs every 4th morning, not a big dose.

I write to you because I share the exact same reasons as you for starting T therapy. I haven't felt much positive yet; initially I had more in the way of morning erections, but they seem to have abated the last 10 days or so. Fatigue levels may be a bit improved, but only very marginally. I know I have to be patient.

I notice since starting that I also have less penile sensitivity with the net result being that I seem to work hard at getting an orgasm; it can easily take 20 or more minutes and several times my erection has just called it quits. It calls for more analysis, something you don't get much of here in Canada; they don't want to do the tests you need.

I have spent time on the board here, and I know that getting dialed in is not an easy thing to do, but CAN be done. You have to experiment with things and keep trying. Try to find someone to legally prescribe the T for you, and hopefully give you the test requisitions you need. Then turn to the board here for whatever help you need. That's what I'm doing.

Finally, I appreciate the fact that you'd like to do it "naturally". Looking at my situation (so that I don't comment to closely at yours . . .), at a certain point I don't think it's possible. I developed devastating angina at the age of 41. I tried everything to avoid an operation, to do it naturally. I went vegetarian and lost 100 lbs, 270 to 170. I did that kind of thing for 15 years without much success. Finally I had the bypass, and it was great and is great up to this day 12 years later. Many times we develop issues that nature itself just cannot accommodate and correct. If our vision is bad can we correct it be eating more carrots? Of course not. But thankfully we're lucky to live in this day and age where options exist. We should exploit those options to the fullest; I personally don't think you've done that yet . . . keep experimenting, keep trying.

Melody68,

Thank you for the response!

I have not given up just yet. Since I will be beginning Sub Q injections I will have the ability to adjust the frequency and dose on my own. Im going to continue for the time being at 100mg/week but as suggested Im going to spread it out over a few days instead of all at once.

The one big deal breaker for me is the loss of penile sensitivity. That is a big part of the reason I started T in the first place. I did not realize that was a potential side affect along with prolonged orgasm. If that doesnt subside I will most likely dump T all together and see if I cane treat my ED without the use of the T.

This particular side affect makes me feel like I'm going backwards in my journey to feeling better.

Today is the first day Im going without Tadalafil. Im going to go without for a week to get it out of my system then I am going to start back up using L-Citrulline(Supplement) as it has some evidence of being a natural treatment for ED.

I will be continuing the search for a new doc. Im even looking into Holistic docs that I may be able to get into see in my area.

Getting old sucks but it is certainly better then the alternative. Keep up the good fight!

 

[Gman86]

What were your symptoms that you wanted to improve when starting, and what were your expectations?

If your main concern is sensitivity and orgasm then you may want to look into adding HCG to your protocol if you can afford it. It improved my experience on both of those fronts and I’d say that’s the most logical place to start.

Or it could be possible that you need a higher dose(though adding HCG may help with that depending on what type of testicular function you’re able to achieve by incorporating it).

If you plan to discontinue then imho I’d say just drop it cold turkey so that you don’t prolong the process of recovery.

What’s ur HCG protocol? Like total weekly dosage, and how many times u inject it per week

 

[Gunner@1911]

A few ideas for you:
- DHEA helps many of us
- Vitamin C and Garlic can't hurt and seem to help. I take about 1.5 grams of vitamin C per day and swallow two garlic clove bits. Also, smoking drastically reduces the body's Vitamin C level and C is crucial for blood vessel health among other things. You likely need more C given your smoking. Consider switching to nicotine lozenges. Apparently a lot of the mechnism for the damage from cigs is Vitamin C depletion.
- A good nitric oxide supplement. I use N1o1 but beet root powder is worth a try
- You might try cutting your T dose. A simple way to tell if that may help is to just go off of the T for a week and see what happens.
- Check out the threads on PT-141
- Sprinting or sled pushing!!! No one wants to do it but I have noticed a clear EQ benefit when I do a HIIT workout
- Do at least 10 mins per day of treadmill walking at 4 MPH and full incline. Add in more from there but at least do that.
- PT-141 as described in other threads
- A low dose of Chasteberry every other day may help if prolactin is part of your problem.
- If you are a DHT responder, proviron or masteron at a low dose may help.

Try HCG, but more importantly, don't put conditions on what solutions you will accept. If you have to inject ten things, so be it. You're trying to do something which is far from easy and it will be crucial for you and your GF's quality of life going forward, so you have to have a mentality of doing absolutely whatever it takes and trying everything you possibly can, and anything that is counter to your goal has to go. Period. On a similar note, the cancer sticks have to go. You can't undermine your chances of success with counterproductive things, and cigs are well-known to damage the endothelium which is the exact opposite of what you want.

Guided by voices, Thank you for the response.

Currently I am taking Vit C supplements along with Garlic and have been for many years. I take 2000mg/day of the C and I would have to check what the Garlic is as I dont remember off the top of my head.

Next Monday I will be starting L_Cirtulline to see if the supplement helps with my ED at all. I have been on Tadalafil 5mg/day but I have taken a break from that to see if the L_cirulline does me any good.

As I have previously stated Im loosing my current doc and finding a new one is proving to be a challenge. The reason I mention this is because getting a script for the HCG isnt an option at this time.

Although I am tempted to just dump of all this and give my body a reset to see where I am now, I havent given up just yet. I am just discouraged because I guess I had higher expectations for feeling better then I have witnessed.

Im going to stay with it for a bit but time will tell.

 

[Gman86]

You may also try a cock ring. You can get a pack of six different sizes on amazon. They help keep the blood in the organ. I'm also going to try one at the base and one just behind the head. I've found that head stimulation during sex determines hardness and duration. My theory is when I was young, cowgirl worked great as the head pushed hard on the uterus, but as I've aged and the erection is softer, it gets far less stimulation against the uterus. I'm hoping that keeping the blood in the head will make it pokey again. Just a thought.

Just a little anatomy lesson. No penis has ever entered a uterus during sex, and that includes urs lol. Supposedly it’s not possible for a penis to even enter a cervix during sex, and the cervix is before the uterus. Supposedly a penis can only hit the cervix/ bruise it, but not possible to enter it. The cervix opening is too small, and is usually plugged up with mucus. Reverse cowgirl does feel awesome tho, u ain’t wrong about that lol

 

[KenAdams]

Gunner just thought I would share some experiences I have been told by friends that are on trt. I’m not on it and have been still researching and talking to friends etc before starting. 4 of my friends who are on TRT had the exact same problem you have. They all complain to each other that they lost sensitivity and how their wife’s don’t even want to play anymore bc it can take them up to 45 mins to finish if they can finish at all. That being said 3 of them have admitted to taking viagra or similar. Maybe that is causing the loss of sensitivity or delayed finish or maybe something that happens with trt to some people. I have no first-hand experience with this but I just wanted to share because I thought it might be helpful in someway.

 

[Gunner@1911]

Gunner just thought I would share some experiences I have been told by friends that are on trt. I’m not on it and have been still researching and talking to friends etc before starting. 4 of my friends who are on TRT had the exact same problem you have. They all complain to each other that they lost sensitivity and how their wife’s don’t even want to play anymore bc it can take them up to 45 mins to finish if they can finish at all. That being said 3 of them have admitted to taking viagra or similar. Maybe that is causing the loss of sensitivity or delayed finish or maybe something that happens with trt to some people. I have no first-hand experience with this but I just wanted to share because I thought it might be helpful in someway.

KenAdams,

Thank you for the response.

The more I dig into this it doesnt appear to be as uncommon at all. I take a daily dose of Tadalafil(Generic Cialis). I do not think that is where the loss of sensitivity is coming from, in fact I think it has helped more than the TRT. I have the same issues that your friends complain of, taking upwards of 45 min to get off if I can keep it up that long! Sometimes when we are going at it for a long time I just loose my erection like its just tired of participating!

I suspect that the loss of sensitivity comes from the Testosterone because when you supply it artificially your testicles stop producing the T. Im no doctor by any stretch but that is my suspicions.

I started taking TRT because I wanted to feel better and I had started having erectile dysfunction. I figure boosting my T numbers would improve both of those symptoms. In my case it has not....yet. Im not giving up just yet but if this loss of sensation doesnt come back I will most likely stop taking TRT.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Gman86]

Wow! I never said I entered the uterus. I do/did push it around a bunch. btw- the cervix is only 4 to 5 inches in with most women. I was referring to the sensation of the head of my cock when very hard and pushing on the uterus.

I’m sorry to break it to ya, no matter how big u are, ur not touching the uterus. It’s literally impossible. U can’t do things that are impossible. Hence the meaning of impossible lol. And if u somehow entered these girl’s cervixes, be proud, u might be the first guy ever to do so lol. But ya, hitting the cervix with ur dick during sex is absolutely possible, and probably fairly common. That’s probably what ur referring to. But damn, those poor girls and their cervixes lol. Again, we definitely are on the same page tho, reverse cowgirl is amazing hahah

 

[Mastodont]

pde5 inhibitors like cialis and viagra are known to reduce sensitivity, i would take a long break to rule it out.

 

[Gunner@1911]

pde5 inhibitors like cialis and viagra are known to reduce sensitivity, i would take a long break to rule it out.

Mastadont,

Thank you for the reply. Can you provide me any information on this? I havent been able to find anything on the PDE5 inhibitors causing reduced sensation.

Thank you.

 

[Melody68]

Mastadont,

Thank you for the reply. Can you provide me any information on this? I havent been able to find anything on the PDE5 inhibitors causing reduced sensation.

Thank you.

I took Viagra for several years before starting TRT just a month and a half ago. As long as I didn't take too much (75 mg was too much - felt like a log, but 50 was right so I broke a 100 in half) then I never had sensitivity issues, and could sometimes orgasm two or even three times that day. Then I decided to start TRT since fatigue during work or exercise was an issue, and in the last couple of weeks I've discovered that it's more difficult to orgasm (as if I have to work at it) and then it's once and done for the rest of the day. I've also noticed a decrease in morning erections which were there initially for a few weeks when I first started the TRT.

I'm betting that, in my case at least, it's an issue of excess estradiol that's aromatizing as a result of my strong response to TRT (701, or 24.3 TT in the trough). My endo doesn't test anything except Total Test and a CBC, so I can't even find out about the estradiol, but I'll order the tests privately soon. In the meantime I'm considering reducing my T dose by 15%; maybe that would help.

 

[Gman86]

I took Viagra for several years before starting TRT just a month and a half ago. As long as I didn't take too much (75 mg was too much - felt like a log, but 50 was right so I broke a 100 in half) then I never had sensitivity issues, and could sometimes orgasm two or even three times that day. Then I decided to start TRT since fatigue during work or exercise was an issue, and in the last couple of weeks I've discovered that it's more difficult to orgasm (as if I have to work at it) and then it's once and done for the rest of the day. I've also noticed a decrease in morning erections which were there initially for a few weeks when I first started the TRT.

I'm betting that, in my case at least, it's an issue of excess estradiol that's aromatizing as a result of my strong response to TRT (701, or 24.3 TT in the trough). My endo doesn't test anything except Total Test and a CBC, so I can't even find out about the estradiol, but I'll order the tests privately soon. In the meantime I'm considering reducing my T dose by 15%; maybe that would help.

It could also be due to ur HPTA shutting down. Imo, at least

 

[Melody68]

It could also be due to ur HPTA shutting down. Imo, at least

Hey Gman, that's interesting. I know I need testing. But IF it was as a result of the HPTA shutting down, then is it a temporary issue? How would one counter that effect?

 

[Gman86]

Hey Gman, that's interesting. I know I need testing. But IF it was as a result of the HPTA shutting down, then is it a temporary issue? How would one counter that effect?

I wouldn’t consider it temporary, as long as ur on exogenous injectable test/ AAS, that is. And @Cataceous is absolutely the expert on this subject. Hopefully he either responds, or I would reach out to him for that answer. I haven’t looked into it a ton. Most I’ve ever done to curb the possible sides from shutdown, is to use hcg. He’s done the research on how to counter it tho, and uses/ has used quite a few things to counter HPTA shut down

 

[Melody68]

Thanks Gman, I'll wait a while and then contact Cataceous directly if need be.

 

[Mastodont]

Mastadont,

Thank you for the reply. Can you provide me any information on this? I havent been able to find anything on the PDE5 inhibitors causing reduced sensation.

Thank you.

Well i can see if i find something, it's just based on anecdotes, almost everyone seems to say they last longer with these, and it is due to that feature, for some it might go overboard. You may find some useful information on the matter in general on here:

Delayed or Absent Orgasm in Men

12:05-16:00 *I'll be honest often times we really don't know this delayed ejaculation and orgasmia this is probably the least understood and hardest to deal with problems that clinicians such as myself and in general the clinical world come up against and you know and look there are a variety...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Cataceous]

... But IF it was as a result of the HPTA shutting down, then is it a temporary issue? How would one counter that effect?

As @Gman86 implies, problems related to HPTA shutdown usually get worse over time, not better. We also have to consider that some problems may be a result of using too much testosterone for one's physiology. The problems we're referring to are things like reduced libido and sensitivity, ED, cognitive decline and reduced motivation. It's very dependent on the individual as to which, if any of these symptoms are experienced.

One solution is to avoid an HPTA shutdown. That's easier said than done. I recently wrote:

If you're looking to preserve GnRH signaling in the presence of exogenous testosterone then you're pretty much limited to testosterone nasal gel, e.g. Natesto, or the combination of oral testosterone and enclomiphene [R]. Alternatives are either less practical — e.g. injecting exogenous GnRH (gonadorelin) several times daily [R]— or speculative — e.g. adding cistanche extract and enclomiphene to a conventional TRT protocol [R].​

Here's some background on why the loss of upstream hormones may be problematic:

Is GnRH suppression hurting us?

Admittedly the last thing we need is some other nebulous danger to worry about that may not even exist. Read on at your peril. TL;DR: Testosterone replacement therapy suppresses the production of GnRH. Receptors for GnRH are found in places besides the pituitary. One animal model suggests GnRH...

www.excelmale.com

Kisspeptin suppression under TRT: Can it affect mood and libido?

TD;LR: Kisspeptin may affect how we act and feel. It seems plausible that a TRT-induced reduction in this hormone is a problem for some men. I’d previously asked if suppression of GnRH by TRT is a problem. The literature at least hints that it is possible. The situation with kisspeptin may be...

www.excelmale.com

In the case of taking too much testosterone, there's ample anecdotal evidence that lowering the dose can lead to improvements. With injections it is very easy to use too much testosterone. The physiological range of testosterone production is covered by 30-90 mg of testosterone cypionate per week in divided doses. Too many men are started at 100 mg+/week, and often just go up from there. I think this is a mistake, as it can lead to unnecessary misery. Lowering the dose frequently helps, but transient withdrawal symptoms are often mistaken as a return to hypogonadism, preventing some from following through.

It's been hypothesized that in some cases a lack of variation in serum testosterone is contributing to problems, perhaps by preventing the use of a low enough dose of testosterone. The success of Natesto gives some evidence that the daily peak value of serum testosterone has independent importance. The idea is that as long as you maintain a healthy daily peak then the overall dose of testosterone can be much lower than when a given serum level is maintained 24/7. This premise can be tested by switching to daily use of a blend of testosterone propionate and a longer ester, such as cypionate or enanthate.

 

[Melody68]

As @Gman86 implies, problems related to HPTA shutdown usually get worse over time, not better. We also have to consider that some problems may be a result of using too much testosterone for one's physiology. The problems we're referring to are things like reduced libido and sensitivity, ED, cognitive decline and reduced motivation. It's very dependent on the individual as to which, if any of these symptoms are experienced.

One solution is to avoid an HPTA shutdown. That's easier said than done. I recently wrote:

If you're looking to preserve GnRH signaling in the presence of exogenous testosterone then you're pretty much limited to testosterone nasal gel, e.g. Natesto, or the combination of oral testosterone and enclomiphene [R]. Alternatives are either less practical — e.g. injecting exogenous GnRH (gonadorelin) several times daily [R]— or speculative — e.g. adding cistanche extract and enclomiphene to a conventional TRT protocol [R].​

Here's some background on why the loss of upstream hormones may be problematic:

Is GnRH suppression hurting us?

Admittedly the last thing we need is some other nebulous danger to worry about that may not even exist. Read on at your peril. TL;DR: Testosterone replacement therapy suppresses the production of GnRH. Receptors for GnRH are found in places besides the pituitary. One animal model suggests GnRH...

www.excelmale.com

Kisspeptin suppression under TRT: Can it affect mood and libido?

TD;LR: Kisspeptin may affect how we act and feel. It seems plausible that a TRT-induced reduction in this hormone is a problem for some men. I’d previously asked if suppression of GnRH by TRT is a problem. The literature at least hints that it is possible. The situation with kisspeptin may be...

www.excelmale.com

In the case of taking too much testosterone, there's ample anecdotal evidence that lowering the dose can lead to improvements. With injections it is very easy to use too much testosterone. The physiological range of testosterone production is covered by 30-90 mg of testosterone cypionate per week in divided doses. Too many men are started at 100 mg+/week, and often just go up from there. I think this is a mistake, as it can lead to unnecessary misery. Lowering the dose frequently helps, but transient withdrawal symptoms are often mistaken as a return to hypogonadism, preventing some from following through.

It's been hypothesized that in some cases a lack of variation in serum testosterone is contributing to problems, perhaps by preventing the use of a low enough dose of testosterone. The success of Natesto gives some evidence that the daily peak value of serum testosterone has independent importance. The idea is that as long as you maintain a healthy daily peak then the overall dose of testosterone can be much lower than when a given serum level is maintained 24/7. This premise can be tested by switching to daily use of a blend of testosterone propionate and a longer ester, such as cypionate or enanthate.

OK . . . got it. Not.

First, my gratitude to Cataceous for attempting to explain something to the intellectually challenged. Clearly over my head; some of you guys must be serious students (or masters) of science.

Some parts can still be understood by the layperson. "TRT suppresses the production of GnRH" and . . . GnRH is presumably a good thing NOT to suppress. It confirms a concern that I've always had that the "HPTA" or whatever system is responsible for producing testosterone might also produce many other minute chemicals that couldn't possibly be duplicated by a single man-made blunt-force product like testosterone. It seems to me that clarification on that subject is still decades ahead of us, so that it's destined to become a gray area in our conscience, leading us to place a tick on the negative side of the "do we, or don't we" TRT balance sheet. Or . . . maybe my Endo would know (ha!).

In the case of taking too much testosterone, there's ample anecdotal evidence that lowering the dose can lead to improvements. The physiological range of testosterone production is covered by 30-90 mg of testosterone cypionate per week in divided doses. Too many men are started at 100 mg+/week, and often just go up from there. I think this is a mistake. Lowering the dose frequently helps, but transient withdrawal symptoms are often mistaken as a return to hypogonadism, preventing some from following through.

Very helpful and thankfully understood. Cataceous, what would be the most common reasons why lowering the dose could lead to improvements? If a patient was started at 100mg per week and chose to reduce to 75mg per week, what "withdrawal symptoms" could he experience such that the fear of returning to the pre TRT state could scare him enough to resume the initially prescribed 100 mg level?

Many thanks for your efforts . . .