DIM; Good or Bad to Modulate Estradiol?

[Vince]

I supplement with 3 mg of boron twice a day. I take it for bone strength.

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

Hi MarkM,

Thomas DeLauer has a great video on Estrogen and also talks about DIM toward the end of it. I thought he did a great Job. I know I feel better when I take DIM. But I dont have labs to back it up....See attached link on youtube

 

[DragonBits]

I supplement with 3 mg of boron twice a day. I take it for bone strength.

I have a more zen like reason for taking boron.

Originally I took it increase my TT and FT, but since I am on TRT now it probably doesn't matter as much for that.

But since boron proved to have a positive effect on my FT, seemed to enhance magnesium uptake or at least prevent some muscle cramps, I take it because maybe it is doing other positive things that aren't easy to feel or measure on a short term basis.

It isn't easy to determine if any one supplement is aiding bone health.

I didn't know this:

Trying to lose weight? A 10% weight loss results in up to 2% bone loss, the Rutgers researchers say.

“If you’re naturally thin, you may want to gain a few pounds just to protect your bones,” says registered dietitian Timothy Carlson, PhD, editor of The Nutrition Forum, the newsletter of the Nutrition Division of the American Association for Clinical Chemistry Nutrition.

7 Ways to Improve Bone Health After Age 50

Another good reason to lift weights if you are trying to lose weight.

 

[Vince]

Boron for bone density

 

[DragonBits]

Boron for bone density

But my point is that without doing at least 2 DEXA bone scans, you don't really know if boron is helping, how much it helps or if you needed it in the first place.

They only recommend Dexa bone scans for men over 70. Of course, if you are losing too much bone density, by the time it becomes a problem it's too late to do a anything to increase it. After ~35 it's very difficult to increase bone density, mostly they just try to decrease bone loss.

There is also the subject of bone size Vs bone density which I haven't studied.

Preventing loss of bone density is very important, but in the past I thought one could still increase bone density at any age, now I don't think that is true.

 

[Vince]

But my point is that without doing at least 2 DEXA bone scans, you don't really know if boron is helping, how much it helps or if you needed it in the first place.

They only recommend Dexa bone scans for men over 70. Of course, if you are losing too much bone density, by the time it becomes a problem it's too late to do a anything to increase it. After ~35 it's very difficult to increase bone density, mostly they just try to decrease bone loss.

There is also the subject of bone size Vs bone density which I haven't studied.

Preventing loss of bone density is very important, but in the past I thought one could still increase bone density at any age, now I don't think that is true.

I had one bone density test 4 years ago. It did show that I have started some bone loss. I do plan on having another scan to see how it has progressed.

 

[DragonBits]

I had one bone density test 4 years ago. It did show that I have started some bone loss. I do plan on having another scan to see how it has progressed.

There is a service called DexaFit which appears to be the same thing, it does provide a bone density score, though it provides a lot more.

Not sure it this is the same thing you got, or if insurance covered it.

https://dexabody.com/resources/Dexa-Body-Sample-Report.pdf

You can get 4 scans for $313, or you can get any mix of Dexa, Vo2 max, RMR, and 3d body scan,

Plans and Pricing | DexaFit

 

[joshmaximus]

I supplement with 3 mg of boron twice a day. I take it for bone strength.

Did u start taking dim and how many mg?

 

[Vince]

Did u start taking dim and how many mg?

No I've never used dmi.

 

[DragonBits]

i don't understand the full effect of taking DIM, it seems quite complicated.

Is it suppose to reduce serum levels of E2, or only the "effects" of E2 leaving the levels unchanged?

Then there is this, which if I were taking it I was do a lot more research on. Because this article is saying DIM blocks the effects of testosterone and acts as an anti-estrogen.

So I would stay away from DIM, but if you want to take it you should google DIM's effect on testosterone.
===============================================

Diindolylmethane is an androgen antagonist.
DIM blocks the effects of testosterone. Higher doses (greater than 100mg) of isolated pure DIM can saturate tissues and block androgen (e.g. testosterone and dihydrotestosterone) receptors and inhibit the protein synthesis induced by the anabolic effects of androgens. This is one of the ways DIM can help in cases of prostate cancer ; the other way is by inhibiting mTOR pathways that lead to cell growth and division but we will discuss mTOR in greater detail later when we discuss muscle hypertrophy.

Diindolylmethane as an anti-estrogen
The discovery of DIM stems from research on the anticancer potential of a diet high in cruciferous brassica vegetables such as broccoli, broccoli sprouts, radishes, pak choy, kale, brussels sprouts and cabbages.

These foods contain a multitude of beneficial phytonutrients, activated vitamins and cofactors in particular glucosinolates. Glucoraphanin is a stable plant glucosinolate that is converted to the active isothiocyanate, sulforaphane by an enzyme known as myrosinase. Broccoli also contains glucobrassicin, the glucosinolate precursor of indole-3-carbinol (I3C) and subsequently Diindolylmethane (DIM).

Indole-3-carbinol was studied extensively and found to be effective and beneficial for cancers but was shown to be very unstable. DIM was found to be more stable and more suitable for use in supplements.

Very low doses of DIM (less than 100mg daily) in combination with other sulforaphanes and necessary cofactors folate and B12 as found in nature can help alter estrogen detoxification pathways in the gut and liver and improve the 2:16 alpha hydroxyl estrone ratios to reduce excessive estrogen activity.

The research on DIM for this purpose is not adequate, with small groups and short durations and is far from convincing. The lack of effect may possibly be due to the need for the other glucosinolates compounds and the cofactors methylated folate and vitamin B12, which are necessary for this pathway.

Diindolylmethane is a phytoestrogen
In estrogen deficit DIM increases estrogen activity. Phytoestrogens work to maintain a certain amount of hormonal activity. When testosterone is adequate or high and estrogen is relatively low as seen in males, menopause, andropause, PCOS, “metabolic damage” post comp and in female athletes with low body fat and low estrogen levels; DIM will bind and activate estrogen receptors to increase estrogen activity while blocking the androgen receptors to decrease testosterone activity.

Diindolylmethane blocks mTOR
Higher doses of DIM act systemically to block anabolic androgens and mTOR pathways. mTOR is necessary for cell growth and for this mechanism DIM is currently being researched as a potential tool for reducing growth of cancer and tumours; this research is still a long way from being able to make any solid anti-cancer claims for DIM. However, it is important for athletes using DIM as part of a muscle building campaign to know that mTOR is the main anabolic pathway necessary for muscle hypertrophy and DIM will also block mTOR stimulation of cell growth.

Summary

DIM is a testosterone blocker and not an estrogen blocker
DIM is a phytoestrogen and not an anti-estrogen
DIM blocks mTOR and subsequently inhibits growth
Very low doses of DIM as found as a component of foods with the necessary cofactors works in the gut and liver to manipulate estrogen detox and support healthy estrogen metabolite ratios to prevent estrogen dominance
DIM is commonly prescribed by healthcare professionals to aid in the treatment of testosterone induced cancers and other disorders of excessive testosterone such as PCOS, hirsutism, acne

DIM (Diindolylmethane) and why it is NOT an Estrogen blocker - ATP Science Pty Ltd

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

Here's a good article:

The Benefits of DIM | Effective pain and injury treatment in Fort Wayne, IN | Fort Wayne Physical Medicine

 

[heavyweights]

Does anyone take DIM here?
Being on Keto and IF, i'm not getting in as much cruciferous veg as I should. I think this stuff doesn't cause great dents but I read up on mushrooms helping estrogen control which i'm trying to up. Meat and mushrooms gets dry after a while

 

[madman]

10 Ways To Lower Estrogen Toxic Load | Poliquin Article

 

[MarkM]

Hi MarkM,

Thomas DeLauer has a great video on Estrogen and also talks about DIM toward the end of it. I thought he did a great Job. I know I feel better when I take DIM. But I dont have labs to back it up....See attached link on youtube

Thanks for the info Tim, good stuff!

 

[Vince Carter]

Hi MarkM,

Thomas DeLauer has a great video on Estrogen and also talks about DIM toward the end of it. I thought he did a great Job. I know I feel better when I take DIM. But I dont have labs to back it up....See attached link on youtube

he's on a lot more than DIM.

 

[Alive]

10 Ways To Lower Estrogen Toxic Load | Poliquin Article

I've read contradictory things on phytoestrogens. Isn't the estrogen in hops or soy a phytoestrogen? How does the body tell the difference between different types?

This guy puts it well: Are Phytoestrogens Good or Bad for You? - Dr. Axe