DHEA wow!

[Gianluca]

My Preg came back at the minimum of the range when I tested it in the past. I tried supplementing it at that point and 10mg/day SR shot up my libido to completely insane levels.

I don't think it was placebo because I didn't expect that effect at all, I'd heard it was good for verbal fluency, memory etc...but nothing about libido.
Definitely made me hungrier for life/adventures also, unfortunately I got super bloated afterwards and decided to drop neurosteroids until I could really fine tune just Test.

But I'm close to wanting to try again, so I think I might try the IR version this time; it's possible SR works like longer esters for me where I start out feeling great and then worse and worse as time goes by.

I'll update this thread as I try Preg/DHEA

Is your Progesterone low also?

 

[Jerajera]

Is your Progesterone low also?

I only tested it once and can't remember honestly. I would assume it is, simply because both DHEA-S and Preg are very, very low.

I can't remember whether I've mentioned this in this specific thread, but after I started TRT my DHEA-S dropped from 200 to 80, repeated over many blood tests. That's a 60% drop.
I don't have a pre-TRT Pregnenolone score, but my guess would be it was also significantly negatively affected by exogenous Testosterone.

In my case at least it seems TRT significantly lowered my neurosteroid production, so I would expect my Progesterone levels to be low also at this point.
I'm going to test both Preg and Prog on my next labs, see what's going on. My sleep has been garbage for a while, so low Prog would make sense

 

[Gianluca]

I only tested it once and can't remember honestly. I would assume it is, simply because both DHEA-S and Preg are very, very low.

I can't remember whether I've mentioned this in this specific thread, but after I started TRT my DHEA-S dropped from 200 to 80, repeated over many blood tests. That's a 60% drop.
I don't have a pre-TRT Pregnenolone score, but my guess would be it was also significantly negatively affected by exogenous Testosterone.

In my case at least it seems TRT significantly lowered my neurosteroid production, so I would expect my Progesterone levels to be low also at this point.
I'm going to test both Preg and Prog on my next labs, see what's going on. My sleep has been garbage for a while, so low Prog would make sense

Beside the sleep, have you experienced increased anxiety and memory loss as well after TRT? I’m sure you know oral micronized Pregnenolone converts into Progesterone.

 

[Jerajera]

Beside the sleep, have you experienced increased anxiety and memory loss as well after TRT?

Memory loss definitely, as well as a significant degradation of my verbal fluency and reasoning skills. When I'm on longer esters, and especially ultra-stable protocols (ED injections, for ex), I also end up feeling completely anhedonic; I lose interest for everything. I'm not depressed in the sense of being suicidal, I just don't give a shit about literally anything. No extra anxiety, though.

Propioniate gives me back some enthusiasm for life and I definitely feel mentally sharper on it. I have ideas and insights again, I can make plans for the future, etc...my libido is also a lot higher and erection quality much better.
Unfortunately my sleep is trash, but I'm ok with that tradeoff given how flat and slow I feel on Cypionate.

I’m sure you know oral micronized Pregnenolone converts into Progesterone.

I've read this on forums and the likes but haven't seen any studies. I do remember my sleep getting better on the 10mg/day SR Preg.
Have you personally seen an increase in Progesterone when you were taking Preg?

 

[tareload]

Memory loss definitely, as well as a significant degradation of my verbal fluency and reasoning skills. When I'm on longer esters, and especially ultra-stable protocols (ED injections, for ex), I also end up feeling completely anhedonic; I lose interest for everything. I'm not depressed in the sense of being suicidal, I just don't give a shit about literally anything. No extra anxiety, though.

Propioniate gives me back some enthusiasm for life and I definitely feel mentally sharper on it. I have ideas and insights again, I can make plans for the future, etc...my libido is also a lot higher and erection quality much better.
Unfortunately my sleep is trash, but I'm ok with that tradeoff given how flat and slow I feel on Cypionate.



I've read this on forums and the likes but haven't seen any studies. I do remember my sleep getting better on the 10mg/day SR Preg.
Have you personally seen an increase in Progesterone when you were taking Preg?

High IQ individual. Sorry comes with the territory.

 

[tareload]

Good example of + / - TRT effect treatment arms on mental capacity and function in high IQ persons:

 

[USMC]

I took 25mg per day for a couple of weeks... it drives my libido crazy to the point I can't concentrate on anything else I did it on two separate occasions. No more DHEA for me!

 

[berkcan1]

I took 25mg per day for a couple of weeks... it drives my libido crazy to the point I can't concentrate on anything else I did it on two separate occasions. No more DHEA for me!

did you use it with Pregnenolone ?

 

[USMC]

did you use it with Pregnenolone ?

Nope, all by itself... crazy!

 

[Gianluca]

Memory loss definitely, as well as a significant degradation of my verbal fluency and reasoning skills. When I'm on longer esters, and especially ultra-stable protocols (ED injections, for ex), I also end up feeling completely anhedonic; I lose interest for everything. I'm not depressed in the sense of being suicidal, I just don't give a shit about literally anything. No extra anxiety, though.

Propioniate gives me back some enthusiasm for life and I definitely feel mentally sharper on it. I have ideas and insights again, I can make plans for the future, etc...my libido is also a lot higher and erection quality much better.
Unfortunately my sleep is trash, but I'm ok with that tradeoff given how flat and slow I feel on Cypionate.



I've read this on forums and the likes but haven't seen any studies. I do remember my sleep getting better on the 10mg/day SR Preg.
Have you personally seen an increase in Progesterone when you were taking Preg?

Pregnenolone in order to convert to Progesterone/allopregnenolone needs to make the first pass in the liver. If you search in the forum under Pregnenolone, you will find the studies plus a discussion about it.

 

[Jerajera]

High IQ individual. Sorry comes with the territory.

Haha could be, it's painful to slog through material I used to understand much more easily. Exogenous Test has also affected how much I enjoy intellectual stimulation; I used to find it exciting to study math for fun in my free time, now it feels like torture.
However I'm definitely feeling sharper since switching to Prop, so I think there's definitely something to the idea that constantly elevated (exogenous) Test levels might be partly what leads to those kinds of issues, for me at least.

Pregnenolone in order to convert to Progesterone/allopregnenolone needs to make the first pass in the liver. If you search in the forum under Pregnenolone, you will find the studies plus a discussion about it.

Thanks, I'm going through those right now.

 

[Wolverine]

Haha could be, it's painful to slog through material I used to understand much more easily. Exogenous Test has also affected how much I enjoy intellectual stimulation; I used to find it exciting to study math for fun in my free time, now it feels like torture.
However I'm definitely feeling sharper since switching to Prop, so I think there's definitely something to the idea that constantly elevated (exogenous) Test levels might be partly what leads to those kinds of issues, for me at least.



Thanks, I'm going through those right now.

@Gianluca knows his stuff when it comes to pregnenolone and progesterone. I learned from him (and verified with labs) that IR pregnenolone did not increase pregnenolone but did increase progesterone. Lipid matrix pregnenolone (which bypasses liver) increased pregnenolone but not progesterone.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Memory loss definitely, as well as a significant degradation of my verbal fluency and reasoning skills. When I'm on longer esters, and especially ultra-stable protocols (ED injections, for ex), I also end up feeling completely anhedonic; I lose interest for everything. I'm not depressed in the sense of being suicidal, I just don't give a shit about literally anything. No extra anxiety, though.

Propioniate gives me back some enthusiasm for life and I definitely feel mentally sharper on it. I have ideas and insights again, I can make plans for the future, etc...my libido is also a lot higher and erection quality much better.
Unfortunately my sleep is trash, but I'm ok with that tradeoff given how flat and slow I feel on Cypionate.



I've read this on forums and the likes but haven't seen any studies. I do remember my sleep getting better on the 10mg/day SR Preg.
Have you personally seen an increase in Progesterone when you were taking Preg?

Holy SHEEEEEIITTTT!!!! your situation sounds exactly like mine since starting TRT ( I have been on over 12 years now)...... I know my memory and verbal/articulation skills have decreased noticeably to me since being on TRT.... and I have mild depression ( not suicidal, but just don't give a sh*t on things I used to enjoy) and my sleep sucks... I haven't had a full 8 hours sleep (let alone 3 hours) in over 10 years, it's all broken sleep and I never feel refreshed. I have tried preg, prog, dhea, different injection schedules, different esters (prop, cyp, prop/cyp) and never ever felt dialed in and/or good. I've tried thyroid supplementation to help raise my low SHBG (WHich it does) but it doesn't translate into any noticeable benefits. I'm just tired of chasing my tail in circles... smdh

 

[Gianluca]

Holy SHEEEEEIITTTT!!!! your situation sounds exactly like mine since starting TRT ( I have been on over 12 years now)...... I know my memory and verbal/articulation skills have decreased noticeably to me since being on TRT.... and I have mild depression ( not suicidal, but just don't give a sh*t on things I used to enjoy) and my sleep sucks... I haven't had a full 8 hours sleep (let alone 3 hours) in over 10 years, it's all broken sleep and I never feel refreshed. I have tried preg, prog, dhea, different injection schedules, different esters (prop, cyp, prop/cyp) and never ever felt dialed in and/or good. I've tried thyroid supplementation to help raise my low SHBG (WHich it does) but it doesn't translate into any noticeable benefits. I'm just tired of chasing my tail in circles... smdh

Curious to know what have been your dosages and frequency of TRT?

 

[Jerajera]

Holy SHEEEEEIITTTT!!!! your situation sounds exactly like mine since starting TRT ( I have been on over 12 years now)...... I know my memory and verbal/articulation skills have decreased noticeably to me since being on TRT.... and I have mild depression ( not suicidal, but just don't give a sh*t on things I used to enjoy) and my sleep sucks... I haven't had a full 8 hours sleep (let alone 3 hours) in over 10 years, it's all broken sleep and I never feel refreshed. I have tried preg, prog, dhea, different injection schedules, different esters (prop, cyp, prop/cyp) and never ever felt dialed in and/or good. I've tried thyroid supplementation to help raise my low SHBG (WHich it does) but it doesn't translate into any noticeable benefits. I'm just tired of chasing my tail in circles... smdh

How high/low did you go with your protocols in terms of mg/week? How long did you stay on a single protocol before moving on?

I'm asking because re-reading some of my old journal notes recently reminded me I used to feel very good in some ways on higher dosages of Cyp a few months after I started TRT.
My first relatively successful protocol was 160mg/week in E3.5D injections. Unfortunately after 3 months of that protocol my BP shot up really high and I changed protocols because I'd been having 24/7 headaches for 3 weeks before I realized my BP was in severe hypertension territory.

I'm almost certain it was from water retention, whether due to high T or E or both, as I was really bloated. I don't know whether it would've gone away if I'd given it a little more time or had been better about hydrating myself, really leaning out and doing more cardio, but my BP was high enough that I didn't want to risk staying there longer.

After that I lowered my dose to 18mg/day and never felt good again except very sporadically when changing protocols. Tried creams (scrotal and non-scrotal), different esters, etc...

Recently I tried 50mg E3.5D (100mg/week) of Test Cyp again and felt good for the first 3 weeks or so before it started going down and I started feeling like shit again (zero drive to do anything, not even work out). I bailed after 6 weeks, but maybe that was too early.

Going through some old posting history on different forums it seems some guys ended up having great success by pushing through the feeling like shit period and starting to feel progressively better around the 8-10 week mark, before feeling consistently great eventually.

However their patter seems to be: feeling bad...bad....bad....bad...bad...not horrible...decent...pretty good...really good....amazing. There's a clear trend up.

My experience has typically been: feeling pretty good...really good...great...great...not so good...pretty bad...absolutely fucking horrible.

I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect a change of trend after that, but I'll give it another shot. Try either twice/week at a relatively high dose below 160mg/week, something like 140mg/week. Or same dose but daily injections, and this time wait it out for at least 3-4 months, see what happens

 

[BillyJ03z]

Curious to know what have been your dosages and frequency of TRT?

Over my 12 years of TRT, Ive tried anywhere between 200mg/week to 42mg/week divided into injection frequency of 2xWk, 3xWk, EOD and currently ED. I've tried Prop, Cyp and Prop/Cyp blend. Due to my low SHBG every day injects are the logical choice... but sleep issues have been a huge problem from the start of TRT....

 

[BillyJ03z]

How high/low did you go with your protocols in terms of mg/week? How long did you stay on a single protocol before moving on?

I'm asking because re-reading some of my old journal notes recently reminded me I used to feel very good in some ways on higher dosages of Cyp a few months after I started TRT.
My first relatively successful protocol was 160mg/week in E3.5D injections. Unfortunately after 3 months of that protocol my BP shot up really high and I changed protocols because I'd been having 24/7 headaches for 3 weeks before I realized my BP was in severe hypertension territory.

I'm almost certain it was from water retention, whether due to high T or E or both, as I was really bloated. I don't know whether it would've gone away if I'd given it a little more time or had been better about hydrating myself, really leaning out and doing more cardio, but my BP was high enough that I didn't want to risk staying there longer.

After that I lowered my dose to 18mg/day and never felt good again except very sporadically when changing protocols. Tried creams (scrotal and non-scrotal), different esters, etc...

Recently I tried 50mg E3.5D (100mg/week) of Test Cyp again and felt good for the first 3 weeks or so before it started going down and I started feeling like shit again (zero drive to do anything, not even work out). I bailed after 6 weeks, but maybe that was too early.

Going through some old posting history on different forums it seems some guys ended up having great success by pushing through the feeling like shit period and starting to feel progressively better around the 8-10 week mark, before feeling consistently great eventually.

However their patter seems to be: feeling bad...bad....bad....bad...bad...not horrible...decent...pretty good...really good....amazing. There's a clear trend up.

My experience has typically been: feeling pretty good...really good...great...great...not so good...pretty bad...absolutely fucking horrible.

I'm just not sure it's realistic to expect a change of trend after that, but I'll give it another shot. Try either twice/week at a relatively high dose below 160mg/week, something like 140mg/week. Or same dose but daily injections, and this time wait it out for at least 3-4 months, see what happens

I'm afraid to go up to supraphysiologic levels chasing a homeostasis that might never be achieved with TRT, especially when higher levels start inducing potential cardiac triggers/heart issues/Sex Hormone issues, etc.... I'm 48 years old and my biggest fear right now is death. I cannot fathom that a person can be as sleep deprived as I have been all these years and still function, let alone still be alive. I keep telling my wife I got to figure this out quick or get off, and then I am looking at a whole another cascade of issues once I transition off of TRT. If I had to point to a single cause of why TRT isn't working well for me it would be because of sleep.

 

[Gianluca]

Over my 12 years of TRT, Ive tried anywhere between 200mg/week to 42mg/week divided into injection frequency of 2xWk, 3xWk, EOD and currently ED. I've tried Prop, Cyp and Prop/Cyp blend. Due to my low SHBG every day injects are the logical choice... but sleep issues have been a huge problem from the start of TRT....

do you believe you have less issues with smaller Test dosages like the 42mg per week? are you monitoring also Pregnenolone/Progesterone/DHEA/Cortisol/Thyroid? what type of diet are you eating?

 

[Jerajera]

I'm afraid to go up to supraphysiologic levels chasing a homeostasis that might never be achieved with TRT, especially when higher levels start inducing potential cardiac triggers/heart issues/Sex Hormone issues, etc.... I'm 48 years old and my biggest fear right now is death. I cannot fathom that a person can be as sleep deprived as I have been all these years and still function, let alone still be alive. I keep telling my wife I got to figure this out quick or get off, and then I am looking at a whole another cascade of issues once I transition off of TRT. If I had to point to a single cause of why TRT isn't working well for me it would be because of sleep.

Sorry to hear you've been struggling so much. What I was getting at with my questions is how long have you stayed on all those protocols before moving on to another one?

Anecdotally it seems there's a decent number of men who don't even start feeling better until 8-10 weeks into a protocol. I've personally only once hung onto a specific protocol for 12 weeks and actually ended up feeling pretty good on it towards the end of that time period, I only got off before my blood pressure climbed up like crazy from severe water retention.

After that, the longest I stayed on a protocol was 8 weeks, and I would move on if I still felt like shit by then. I think for most people that's a reasonable amount of time to gauge whether a protocol is going to be successful, but there are exceptions and we might be in that small group of men who are just going to feel terrible (not just "ok but not amazing", just to be clear) for 8-10 weeks before things start getting better.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Sorry to hear you've been struggling so much. What I was getting at with my questions is how long have you stayed on all those protocols before moving on to another one?

Anecdotally it seems there's a decent number of men who don't even start feeling better until 8-10 weeks into a protocol. I've personally only once hung onto a specific protocol for 12 weeks and actually ended up feeling pretty good on it towards the end of that time period, I only got off before my blood pressure climbed up like crazy from severe water retention.

After that, the longest I stayed on a protocol was 8 weeks, and I would move on if I still felt like shit by then. I think for most people that's a reasonable amount of time to gauge whether a protocol is going to be successful, but there are exceptions and we might be in that small group of men who are just going to feel terrible (not just "ok but not amazing", just to be clear) for 8-10 weeks before things start getting better.

All my protocols that I have been on over the past 12 years have been 3 months or longer..... along with different dosages and different esters. Sleep has been the issue from the jump.