Corona Gains: TRT and Gains or lack thereof...

[Cips1975]

Hey gang. Just curious. Most of us are 4 weeks into lockdown. I have not been to the gym in 4 weeks and like most, I am working out at home. I just do pull ups and push ups and some db exercises with 25lb pair. upper day and lower day. I also try and jog/walk 2-3 miles 2-3 times a week which is new for me but starting to like it. Nutrition is not as tight, more cheat foods here and there cooped up at home, but not terrible. I dropped my test to 0.4ml / 84mg total per week. Perhaps not the correct way of thinking, but I figured since I am not full on training and eating these days, to drop the dose a bit. Anyway, I still feel good and look good and no real loss in mass or definition. I know it is only 4 weeks but I have pretty much maintained on a not as optimal training and nutrition and test. Curious if anyone else has experienced the same? I find it interesting and almost like a experiment on how much less I can do and still be good. Perhaps less is more in some instances. How have your results been ?

 

[bochinit]

I have a home-gym so nothing changed here for me but what you are doing seens normals to me, youre just on TRT, keep going on that dosage if is everything right.

 

[TestOneTwo]

Hey gang. Just curious. Most of us are 4 weeks into lockdown. I have not been to the gym in 4 weeks and like most, I am working out at home. I just do pull ups and push ups and some db exercises with 25lb pair. upper day and lower day. I also try and jog/walk 2-3 miles 2-3 times a week which is new for me but starting to like it. Nutrition is not as tight, more cheat foods here and there cooped up at home, but not terrible. I dropped my test to 0.4ml / 84mg total per week. Perhaps not the correct way of thinking, but I figured since I am not full on training and eating these days, to drop the dose a bit. Anyway, I still feel good and look good and no real loss in mass or definition. I know it is only 4 weeks but I have pretty much maintained on a not as optimal training and nutrition and test. Curious if anyone else has experienced the same? I find it interesting and almost like a experiment on how much less I can do and still be good. Perhaps less is more in some instances. How have your results been ?

Bad move, dropping your dose is likely going to cause you feeling blah for the next 6 weeks while your body is trying to readjust. That’s the last thing you need in this situation and with suboptimal training. If it’s not too long ago I’d go back to the the old dose ASAP and drop the cheat food.

 

[Vince]

Sounds like you're surviving and thriving during this epidemic. It's nice you found a way to keep yourself in shape and motivated. Keep up the good work.

 

[Cips1975]

Bad move, dropping your dose is likely going to cause you feeling blah for the next 6 weeks while your body is trying to readjust. That’s the last thing you need in this situation and with suboptimal training. If it’s not too long ago I’d go back to the the old dose ASAP and drop the cheat food.

Thanks for the input. I dropped from approx .6ml 126/130mg of test to .4ml 86/90mg four weeks ago. I think I am going to continue thru rest of April and reevaluate in May.

 

[Cips1975]

Sounds like you're surviving and thriving during this epidemic. It's nice you found a way to keep yourself in shape and motivated. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Vince. When all the gyms closed I immediately purchased Perfect push grip handles and a pull up bar that wedges into the doorway. We already had a small set of dumbbell pairs up to 25lb and a lone 35lber. I also ordered the Bowflex adjustable dumbells up to 52lbs but they never arrived and that was like 4 weeks ago. May have got scammed there. Been saying in transit for ever. Coming from China. Anyway....I try to keep to a routine and just get it done in the morning before work calls. I do supersets of pull ups and push ups for several rounds and play with all kinds of rep schemes to make it fun. Those two exercises alone hit all the upper body muscles. Throw in some light dumbell accessory work and not too bad. For lower body I just do Db Squat and lunges Variations lunges and calf raises. Only have light weight so I do super high reps and low rest. Then I do my 2-3 mile jog/walks outside a couple times a week. So far so good and not really missing the gym for some reason. I would say be creative with what you have. You do not need much as long as you can exhaust the muscle and make it work. I do push myself even with the basics. Best

 

[madman]

Thanks for the input. I dropped from approx .6ml 126/130mg of test to .4ml 86/90mg four weeks ago. I think I am going to continue thru rest of April and reevaluate in May.

Not sure where your TT/FT levels sat on your previous protocol but it is pointless to lower your T dose due to the current situation and although it has been 4 weeks since and you still feel well overall you very well know when one increases/decreases T dose that your hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until they stabilize (4-6 weeks) and even than it can take a few months once levels have stabilized for your body to adapt to your new T levels.

You may very well end up with much lower TT/FT levels than you expected.

Your overall weekly dose reduction was huge......6ml 126/130 mg of test to .4ml 86/90 mg
and I would bet that your T levels will drop significantly.

If I were to increase/decrease my weekly overall T dose by 10-20 mg it can result in a 200-300 ng/dL difference in my TT level when tested at trough!

Regarding the so called loss of gains in mass.....we are on trt not steroids!

 

[Cips1975]

Thanks for the input. My levels were as follows on 0.6ml per week. Regarding the mass comment I made, that is one of the effects of TRT along with all the other great benefits. Testosterone is a steroid as you know and on TRT we are just taking low end levels of steroids. Let’s be honest. All semantics. I believe you were thinking of bodybuilder exogenous doses. That I agree with since that is a totally different ball game.

 

[madman]

Thanks for the input. My levels were as follows on 0.6ml per week. Regarding the mass comment I made, that is one of the effects of TRT along with all the other great benefits. Testosterone is a steroid as you know and on TRT we are just taking low end levels of steroids. Let’s be honest. All semantics. I believe you were thinking of bodybuilder exogenous dosed... that I agree with.View attachment 9574

A more appropriate word would be more along the lines of body composition benefits if we are speaking in terms of trt even when one is running TT/FT levels on the upper end or slightly above the physiological range.

Indeed most on trt will notice improvements in body composition (muscle gain/fat loss) when following a proper diet/training protocol but I would in no way refer to it as mass gains as the gains from trt doses will be minimal compared to using supra-physiological doses.

Regarding testosterone and muscle mass/strength gains its true anabolic properties will shine when one uses supra-physiological doses in the range of 300-600 mg/week and even then the higher end dose will result in more muscle growth/strength gains when following a proper diet/training protocol and lets top it off with the fact that one's genetics will have the final say!

Just keep in mind that your T levels will most likely be much lower with such a drastic dose reduction of 40 mg/week.

As of now, it has been 4 weeks since your dose reduction and although you still feel good overall the next few months will only tell and I would definitely be getting blood work done to see where your levels are at as of now.

 

[Cips1975]

No doubt. I have a buddy running 1500 of test and 750 eq. Love the guy but straight up addict. That’s just plain nuts. I would be afraid to run anything above 200mg. But our goals are different. I hate when I hear peeps on forums or podcasts saying they are running TRT doses then they say 500mg. No! that is a cycle. Be well

 

[TestOneTwo]

Am I right to assume you are self medicating? Also, your E2 seemed a little high. What are your other values? Overall a slight drop in dosage was probably a good idea but dude that much of a drop is asking for trouble. Having said that, you‘re prob on healthier low/mid levels now but without labs and a long adjustment period you can’t really tell.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Am I right to assume you are self medicating? Also, your E2 seemed a little high. What are your other values? Overall a slight drop in dosage was probably a good idea but dude that much of a drop is asking for trouble. Having said that, you‘re prob on healthier low/mid levels now but without labs and a long adjustment period you can’t really tell.

I can’t speak for Cips, but I just had labs pulled 10 days ago and my numbers are almost identical to his. I use 147 mg per week @ 42 mg EOD. My E2 is perfect for me @ 59.1. Once I exceed 80, my skin begins breaking out with painful, deep, large, cystic acne. My sexual response and feelings of wellbeing is best when E2 is kept at 45 - 65. (My SHBG is always around 50 +/- (2). HCG once per week @ 250 iu. On this regiment I don’t need an AI.

 

[DS3]

@Cips1975 What did dropping T accomplish? Lowered immune system during a pandemic? As @madman stated, we take T to achieve therapeutic levels of TT/FT to improve quality of life and as an added benefit, increased quality of body composition. We aren’t taking excessive dosages to accomplish excessive hypertrophy. What’s the end goal? If the end goal, as it should be in TRT, is to reach optimal therapeutic levels of TT/FT and maintain those levels, then you’ve just blown that.

Can't help but wonder what influence Dr. Thomas O'Connell's video played in this decision.

Hopefully this wasn't what influenced the decision, but if it was, he was talking about supraphysiological (ab)use of AAS, not TRT.

 

[TestOneTwo]

I can’t speak for Cips, but I just had labs pulled 10 days ago and my numbers are almost identical to his. I use 147 mg per week @ 42 mg EOD. My E2 is perfect for me @ 59.1. Once I exceed 80, my skin begins breaking out with painful, deep, large, cystic acne. My sexual response and feelings of wellbeing is best when E2 is kept at 45 - 65. (My SHBG is always around 50 +/- (2). HCG once per week @ 250 iu. On this regiment I don’t need an AI.

I’d die to know Cips’s SHBG.

On a side note, I see you are EOD, did you start E3.5 and then switched to EOD? If so, did you adjust the original dose E3.5 dose down for the new EOD regime?

 

[Cips1975]

Am I right to assume you are self medicating? Also, your E2 seemed a little high. What are your other values? Overall a slight drop in dosage was probably a good idea but dude that much of a drop is asking for trouble. Having said that, you‘re prob on healthier low/mid levels now but without labs and a long adjustment period you can’t really tell.

No ! I am not self medicating from the medication standpoint. I get the medication ( Test & HcG ) thru a clinic. The adjustment , I did on my own accord. I am not concerned with my E2. It’s elevated as expected being on TRT but not crazy. I do not use an AI anymore.

 

[Cips1975]

@Cips1975 What did dropping T accomplish? Lowered immune system during a pandemic? As @madman stated, we take T to achieve therapeutic levels of TT/FT to improve quality of life and as an added benefit, increased quality of body composition. We aren’t taking excessive dosages to accomplish excessive hypertrophy. What’s the end goal? If the end goal, as it should be in TRT, is to reach optimal therapeutic levels of TT/FT and maintain those levels, then you’ve just blown that.

Can't help but wonder what influence Dr. Thomas O'Connell's video played in this decision.

Hopefully this wasn't what influenced the decision, but if it was, he was talking about supraphysiological (ab)use of AAS, not TRT.

Hi, appreciate the feedback. No! The Dr O’Connell video had no hand in this. I am just simply experimenting with lower doses. Nothing to do with pandemic or that jazz. My previous dose 0.6ml/week, had me at the slightly high end of Total T and Free T. So just seeing how the 0.4ml/week has me responding.

 

[Cips1975]

I’d die to know Cips’s SHBG.

On a side note, I see you are EOD, did you start E3.5 and then switched to EOD? If so, did you adjust the original dose E3.5 dose down for the new EOD regime?

Hi. I do not have a SHBG to share. In a previous thread I talked about this and I am not worried about that metric as I can make a good assumption it is on the lower end based off my total and free T levels at the dose I am running. My body seems to respond well.

 

[TestOneTwo]

Hi. I do not have a SHBG to share. In a previous thread I talked about this and I am not worried about that metric as I can make a good assumption it is on the lower end based off my total and free T levels at the dose I am running. My body seems to respond well.

Huh. I’d say it’s prob on the higher end or at the very least in the upper mid range since your T levels are rather high (assuming that’s at trough) while your dose is not that insanely high. Why do I say this? Well, at 140mg/wk E3.5 I only get to a measly TT 622 and FT 25. That’s a lowish SHBG for you. In my new regime I’m hoping to get to 850 ish at the same total dose but EOD. So if you are higher SHBG then your new regime will likely not be enough T and you will start feeling less great at some point. That “metric” is actually very important for managing your TRT. Your clinic doesn’t test it? Wow.

 

[Cips1975]

Thanks for the reply. I’ve never had my SHBG checked in the 2 1/2 years since on TRT. At this point I am not concerned about that metric as my total test, free test and other basic health markers have been solid during this time period even with the dose changes periodically. I feel and look great, no sides other than some back acne since day 1. I will report back after sometime on this schedule. Again, just experimenting. Knowing my body and paying attention the last 2 years plus during this journey, I am not too concerned. Just a little background, maybe I am an exception, but when I was in the low 230’s test before starting TRT at the age of 42, I actually felt fine other than the lab report number being low end. The reason I got tested was purely curiosity and interest around TRT when I hit my 40’s. Plus I will be 100 % honest there was that vanity component as well. So I went on purely do to my number being low vs treating a symptom. Fast forward 2 1/2 years later, was it a game changer for me? No. The only two things I can concretely say Is I’ve noticed is enhanced recovery and I look better meaning lower body fat and just slight Increase in musculature. I was already in good shape prior just a little more body fat. But all the other stuff you here about like mood, vitality, sense of well-being etc. that was not an issue before and same now. I guess we are all different in our journeys.

 

[TestOneTwo]

Thanks for the reply. I’ve never had my SHBG checked in the 2 1/2 years since on TRT. At this point I am not concerned about that metric as my total test, free test and other basic health markers have been solid during this time period even with the dose changes periodically. I feel and look great, no sides other than some back acne since day 1. I will report back after sometime on this schedule. Again, just experimenting. Knowing my body and paying attention the last 2 years plus during this journey, I am not too concerned. Just a little background, maybe I am an exception, but when I was in the low 230’s test before starting TRT at the age of 42, I actually felt fine other than the lab report number being low end. The reason I got tested was purely curiosity and interest around TRT when I hit my 40’s. Plus I will be 100 % honest there was that vanity component as well. So I went on purely do to my number being low vs treating a symptom. Fast forward 2 1/2 years later, was it a game changer for me? No. The only two things I can concretely say Is I’ve noticed is enhanced recovery and I look better meaning lower body fat and just slight Increase in musculature. I was already in good shape prior just a little more body fat. But all the other stuff you here about like mood, vitality, sense of well-being etc. that was not an issue before and same now. I guess we are all different in our journeys.

I’ve been on for much shorter time but I started at a similar age as you. I do see parallels. Especially in the area of body composition. I had been able to gain muscle though with A LOT of effort prior TRT and considering how low my T was naturally I did fairly OK overall but I started seeing it going downhill when my libido went bye bye. Same experience, nothing breathtaking overall, zero extra strength etc (see my new thread) but I do feel more grounded, libido is back and I’m in slightly better mood. So far I’m still positive about my decision to crush my balls. Still, I think there’s prob more to be had.