Is training fasted optimal for hypertrophy and strength.

[BadassBlues]

Thats one way to do it. Personally I never change food sources when leaning down unless I'm eating higher fat then go a bit lower on fats. Carbs always the same for me doesn't matter if bulking or cutting. No restrictions have worked wonders for me

I was like that when I was younger and carried more muscle mass. You look good amigo! I have tapered down quite a bit as I just can't do what it takes anymore to keep that kind of mass. What I have now is manageable to maintain. But since my metabolism and energy expenditure is less, I really have to watch my caloric intake. Low carb works very well for me with regard to weight control.

 

[TLR]

I was like that when I was younger and carried more muscle mass. You look good amigo! I have tapered down quite a bit as I just can't do what it takes anymore to keep that kind of mass. What I have now is manageable to maintain. But since my metabolism and energy expenditure is less, I really have to watch my caloric intake. Low carb works very well for me with regard to weight control.

For some reason I seem to do better when I eat everything in “moderation” and just stay away from the sweets and simple processed sugars….Ive seen several folks thrive on a low carb “keto” diet and it makes me green with envy….I just seem to have no energy without carbs and actually feel fatter when I overdo it on the fatty meats and such….

 

[Deleted member 43589]

More power to you "training fasted" fellas. I'm different, and need carbs and not a few to train the way I always trained and like to train. I have no problem eating bread and I don't even count it as a junk food. On the contrary Sourdough bread is really good for the gut but expensive, tastes incredible and digests next to white rice, which, sadly I have a problem to digest now that I've turned 40. But I have other gut issues FWIW. Could eat anything in my 20s lol. Anyway I like eating quick-burning carbs before workout and have a protein shake. That digests absolutely great for me and I'm ready to attack my workout in 60min time. If I eat meat with starchy carbs lets say then its a different thing and I need 90-120mins to be able to perform at my own level that I need. So exactly for this particular reason I like quick-burning carbs pre and post workout with minimal fats added or even without.

Exactly. Depending on your goals in the weight room, glycogen is the main energy substrate during exercise intensity above 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (Vo2max⁡) and fatigue develops when the glycogen stores are depleted in the active muscles. Most all weight training is done above 70% unless you do a lot of texting. In humans the majority of glycogen is stored in skeletal muscles (∼500 g) and the liver (∼100 g). Those stores are easily depleted with intense training that last 45min-1 hour. After exercise, the rate of glycogen synthesis is increased to replete glycogen stores. So for those of us who actually lift weights it is important to have these muscle glycogen stores filled before exercise and then refilled after exercise.

Muscle glycogen stores are also very important to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which causes the sarcoplasm of the muscle cell to super saturate, kicking off myofibrillar hypertrophy.

1. Higher glycogen levels let you train harder.

2. Higher glycogen levels improve recovery.

Low muscle glycogen levels lead to overtraining, fasting and low carb diets deplete muscle glycogen, increase cortisol and reduce testosterone levels in athletes. Low-carb or fasting also reduces insulin levels. Insulin is needed to shuttle nutrients to the muscle cell and insulin also has powerful anti-catabolic properties. Exactly why pro bodybuilders use insulin before and after training to increase hypertrophic and anti-catabolic effects.

Again, it all depends on your preferences and goals. Here is a good paper...

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise​

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise - Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition

It has been hypothesized that performing aerobic exercise after an overnight fast accelerates the loss of body fat. The purpose of this study was to investigate changes in fat mass and fat-free mass following four weeks of volume-equated fasted versus fed aerobic exercise in young women adhering...

jissn.biomedcentral.com

Conclusion​

In conclusion, our findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training. Hence, those seeking to lose body fat conceivably can choose to train either before or after eating based on preference. It should be noted that given the small sample size and short study duration, we cannot rule out the possibility that either condition might confer a small benefit over the other with respect to fat loss. Further study is warranted in a longer term trial with a greater number of participants.

Yet another very good paper....

Exercising fasting or fed to enhance fat loss? Influence of food intake on respiratory ratio and excess postexercise oxygen consumption after a bout of endurance training​

Exercising fasting or fed to enhance fat loss? Influence of food intake on respiratory ratio and excess postexercise oxygen consumption after a bout of endurance training - PubMed

Exercise and nutrition are often used in combination to lose body fat and reduce weight. In this respect, exercise programs are as important as correct nutrition. Several issues are still controversial in this field, and among them there are contrasting reports on whether training in a fasting...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The authors conclude that when moderate endurance exercise is done to lose body fat, fasting before exercise does not enhance lipid utilization; rather, physical activity after a light meal is advisable.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Exactly. Depending on your goals in the weight room, glycogen is the main energy substrate during exercise intensity above 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (Vo2max⁡) and fatigue develops when the glycogen stores are depleted in the active muscles. Most all weight training is done above 70% unless you do a lot of texting. In humans the majority of glycogen is stored in skeletal muscles (∼500 g) and the liver (∼100 g). Those stores are easily depleted with intense training that last 45min-1 hour. After exercise, the rate of glycogen synthesis is increased to replete glycogen stores. So for those of us who actually lift weights it is important to have these muscle glycogen stores filled before exercise and then refilled after exercise.

View attachment 38260

Muscle glycogen stores are also very important to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which causes the sarcoplasm of the muscle cell to super saturate, kicking off myofibrillar hypertrophy.

1. Higher glycogen levels let you train harder.

2. Higher glycogen levels improve recovery.

Low muscle glycogen levels lead to overtraining, fasting and low carb diets deplete muscle glycogen, increase cortisol and reduce testosterone levels in athletes. Low-carb or fasting also reduces insulin levels. Insulin is needed to shuttle nutrients to the muscle cell and insulin also has powerful anti-catabolic properties. Exactly why pro bodybuilders use insulin before and after training to increase hypertrophic and anti-catabolic effects.

Again, it all depends on your preferences and goals. Here is a good paper...

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise​

Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted aerobic exercise - Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition

It has been hypothesized that performing aerobic exercise after an overnight fast accelerates the loss of body fat. The purpose of this study was to investigate changes in fat mass and fat-free mass following four weeks of volume-equated fasted versus fed aerobic exercise in young women adhering...

jissn.biomedcentral.com

Conclusion​

In conclusion, our findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training. Hence, those seeking to lose body fat conceivably can choose to train either before or after eating based on preference. It should be noted that given the small sample size and short study duration, we cannot rule out the possibility that either condition might confer a small benefit over the other with respect to fat loss. Further study is warranted in a longer term trial with a greater number of participants.

Yet another very good paper....

Exercising fasting or fed to enhance fat loss? Influence of food intake on respiratory ratio and excess postexercise oxygen consumption after a bout of endurance training​

Exercising fasting or fed to enhance fat loss? Influence of food intake on respiratory ratio and excess postexercise oxygen consumption after a bout of endurance training - PubMed

Exercise and nutrition are often used in combination to lose body fat and reduce weight. In this respect, exercise programs are as important as correct nutrition. Several issues are still controversial in this field, and among them there are contrasting reports on whether training in a fasting...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The authors conclude that when moderate endurance exercise is done to lose body fat, fasting before exercise does not enhance lipid utilization; rather, physical activity after a light meal is advisable.

So how many carbs is ideal while trying to lose weight? Is the point just *some*, and not keto?

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I don't call what I do as fasted training as I feel that a fast is zero calories from anything. I train in the mornings as well. At 67, my routine is far different than it used to be as a younger man. I drink a cup of coffee with half and half, take my preworkout supps and do the crossword puzzle for 30 minutes. Mental exercise first... Then I drink a concoction of electrolytes, creatine, beet powder and a recent addition of beta alanine.

30 minutes of cardio, followed by resistance training. I bought a very nice system from Force last year and I have dialed in a great program. Dripping wet and sweaty afterwards, I go chug a protein shake, shower, then breakfast.

I used to carry 225 pounds at 15% body fat as a young man, never "swole" by BB standards, but in good shape.

Now I am down to 205 with the same BMI, leaner... but not meaner because old age has mellowed me a bit. This really works for me at this point in my life.

I absolutely can't eat before a workout, I get sick to my stomach and feel lethargic.

imo 30min cardio before weights is counterproductive. or do the cardio after

 

[t_spacemonkey]

More power to you "training fasted" fellas. I'm different, and need carbs and not a few to train the way I always trained and like to train. I have no problem eating bread and I don't even count it as a junk food. On the contrary Sourdough bread is really good for the gut but expensive, tastes incredible and digests next to white rice, which, sadly I have a problem to digest now that I've turned 40. But I have other gut issues FWIW. Could eat anything in my 20s lol. Anyway I like eating quick-burning carbs before workout and have a protein shake. That digests absolutely great for me and I'm ready to attack my workout in 60min time. If I eat meat with starchy carbs lets say then its a different thing and I need 90-120mins to be able to perform at my own level that I need. So exactly for this particular reason I like quick-burning carbs pre and post workout with minimal fats added or even without.

my wife makes her own sourdough. like 1usd per loaf. i like it here and there. store breads can be nasty

 

[t_spacemonkey]

Well I never been a bodybuilder and never will haha. But I do like to work out and have a nice physique. I do work for a living even at 68, I'm still working. It's always been physical work so never a desk job. So I guess that makes me different than a lot of members here. Even now I'm on my feet all day.

I do like getting compliments on how I look. It's funny a lot of time. It's men complimenting me.

men only? i noticed that females flirt with me. i got a ring so it is a deterrent.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

For some reason I seem to do better when I eat everything in “moderation” and just stay away from the sweets and simple processed sugars….Ive seen several folks thrive on a low carb “keto” diet and it makes me green with envy….I just seem to have no energy without carbs and actually feel fatter when I overdo it on the fatty meats and such….

i dumped pure keto. try meat dairy fruit honey etc
if all your carbs come from fruit you wont gain weight. as long as dont do processed crap

 

[TLR]

i dumped pure keto. try meat dairy fruit honey etc
if all your carbs come from fruit you wont gain weight. as long as dont do processed crap

That’s pretty much what I do…other than the occasional taco basket or cheeseburger…!

 

[Belekas]

my wife makes her own sourdough. like 1usd per loaf. i like it here and there. store breads can be nasty

Cool. We have farmers market on Fridays and Saturdays and theres some awesome Sourdough of different varieties there prepped with minimal organic materials just as we want to but thats like £4-5 per loaf so ruffly $5-6 FWIW. Expensive but worth it sometimes. We love it. Have some Sourdough in the stores as well but similar price. Never had any problems with them either and they all in similar price range as well.

 

[Belekas]

i dumped pure keto. try meat dairy fruit honey etc
if all your carbs come from fruit you wont gain weight. as long as dont do processed crap

You will gain weight anytime you eat above your maintenance calories/energy intake. No matter if thats fruit or avocados or pizza, just that it will be hard to go overboard with fruit or otther low calorie foods. Unless dried fruit then its easy af to eat tons of calories in a very short time.

 

[BadassBlues]

imo 30min cardio before weights is counterproductive. or do the cardio after

A lot of people agree with you on that. I like doing cardio first as it loosens me up and gets the juices flowing. It works for me.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

You will gain weight anytime you eat above your maintenance calories/energy intake. No matter if thats fruit or avocados or pizza, just that it will be hard to go overboard with fruit or otther low calorie foods. Unless dried fruit then its easy af to eat tons of calories in a very short time.

technically yes, but practically it is extremely difficult to overeat on a carnivore with or without fruit. I have yet to see someone gaining a lot on this. I never count calories on this and always go down in weight, as long as I adhere to it

 

[Belekas]

technically yes, but practically it is extremely difficult to overeat on a carnivore with or without fruit. I have yet to see someone gaining a lot on this. I never count calories on this and always go down in weight, as long as I adhere to it

I agree re Carnivore with/without fruit. This WOE def has its time and place and serves its purpose. I can't eat fruit because of my gut issues I have and am currently treating but hopefully I'll heal and then be able to slowly start eating fruit that I miss so much as I've always been a huge fruit eater throughout my life. Can't think of a healthier WOE then good meat and fruit.

 

[GreenMachineX]

How much fruit are we talking?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

So how many carbs is ideal while trying to lose weight? Is the point just *some*, and not keto?

I think it depends on how much of your muscle glycogen stores are used (∼500 g). Its always good to make sure those stores are full. I would eat complex carbs 2- hours before training and then afterwards. I think 35% or slightly less. Carb cycling seems to work very well. If you work out 3 days a week, then you need the higher carbs to meet the demands. On the days off you can cut back to a much lower carb intake.

 

[TLR]

I think it depends on how much of your muscle glycogen stores are used (∼500 g). Its always good to make sure those stores are full. I would eat complex carbs 2- hours before training and then afterwards. I think 35% or slightly less. Carb cycling seems to work very well. If you work out 3 days a week, then you need the higher carbs to meet the demands. On the days off you can cut back to a much lower carb intake.

That’s me to a T….I can get by with low carb as long as I’m not doing any vigorous exercise…I’m far from being able to tolerate the volume in the weight room I used to be able to handle, but on lifting or interval days I gotta have some carbs or I feel like a limp d!@k….

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think it depends on how much of your muscle glycogen stores are used (∼500 g). Its always good to make sure those stores are full. I would eat complex carbs 2- hours before training and then afterwards. I think 35% or slightly less. Carb cycling seems to work very well. If you work out 3 days a week, then you need the higher carbs to meet the demands. On the days off you can cut back to a much lower carb intake.

I workout 4 days per week, get at least 10k steps per day and try to get in a few mile trail mountain bike rides twice per week. As of now, 2500kcal with about 250g cho seems to work to lose weight, but it's slightly stalling so I might need to drop more.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I workout 4 days per week, get at least 10k steps per day and try to get in a few mile trail mountain bike rides twice per week. As of now, 2500kcal with about 250g cho seems to work to lose weight, but it's slightly stalling so I might need to drop more.

Sounds like you keep yourself in pretty good physical condition. For that kind of exercise you are probably taking in plenty of carbs. As your weight drops, so must your energy intake/the amount of calories you burn through exercise. If you drop carbs, increase protein and add a little more time to the bike rides. This will help you burn more calories and the protein will help you retain muscle mass and increase the thermic effect of food.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

going low carb definitely tanks your strength initially. Overall i think low carb has tons of benefits, appetite control, mood, no cravings etc. it takes a while, up to a month in my exp, to regain the strength in weight lifting. as I personally need to drop 20lbs of fat, i do consider going back into pure carnivore combined with extra cardio just to burn through that fat. and then go back into carnivore+fruit for maintenance.
anyone here took a fasting insulin blood level test yet? its next on my list, and I am hearing that this is the best way to test for metabolic dysfunction which I believe should be ones number 1 priority in terms of getting health optimized. this number should be somewhere under 5 ideally