Can I build muscle with a TT in the 600s?

[Vince]

Thanks

Do you think it’s healthy to have that high TT and FT over the years? I ask cause I feel better at those numbers but think it’s probably not the best for longevity…

I get an echocardiogram once a year. The only time I had issues with my heart was when I used nandrolone

 

[Steve78]

I get an echocardiogram once a year. The only time I had issues with my heart was when I used nandrolone

Arrhythmias?

 

[Vince]

Arrhythmias?

High Ejection Fraction

 

[JimGainz]

I just wanted to add to something that Madman posted above. In my case, ironically, the only time I did not have to worry about hematocrit was when I was doing injections 5 to 7 days apart. All the other protocols, even when lowering my dose and doing daily, or every other day shots drove my hematocrit high. It was because of constantly keeping free T high which drove up with the red blood cells and hematocrit.
My current protocol, I take 70 mg of testosterone every five days. I also throw in some low dose anabolics, (50 mg nandrolone and 50 primo). My labs were just done and I was 826 ng/dl Total T on injection day:, free T was 22 and hct was 48..5 (this was 3 months after giving blood when normally I would be in the low 50s). When I did shots every other / E3 days Free T was around 28.

as for the OP, I would say to marginally lower your dose, try different frequencies to see what works. As for BP, honestly, your current levels are not that high to cause major BP spikes, so you may need some BP meds. Don’t fret if you do, things like Losartan are cardio protective in many ways and also lower hematocrit a bit.

 

[DadOfSonNOVA]

Of course, yes you can. Remember train almost to failure and progressively overload. Eat 40-50 grams of protein 3 to 4 times per day.

Training must be difficult enough. Not these sets with 5 more reps in reserve. Maybe train each muscle group twice per week depending on total sets. Yes 600 TT is plenty. Also, important is your Free T.

Sounds like Fernando is the Lifting Coach we all need

 

[Gianluca]

Here's a copy of my labs and protocol. I haven't had it to donate blood for over 8 years now. Daily injections doesn't work for everyone.

16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI.

Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA.

My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s.


Testosterone, Total, LC/MS, 1035.9 High ng/dL 264.0-916.0

Testosterone, Free 33.77 High ng/dL 5.00-21.00

% Free Testosterone 3.26% 1.50-4.20

DHEA-Sulfate01 499.0 High ug/dL 30.9-295.6 age adjust

Dihydrotestosterone 56 ng/dL

Estradiol, Sensitive 18.7 pg/mL 8.0-35.0

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum. 41.2 nmol/L 19.3-76.4

Hemoglobin. 16.7 g/dL 13.0-17.7

Hematocrit 47.7 37.5-51.

@Vince is the free T measured with Ultrafiltration at Labcorp? I started using that assay for more accurate result, I find the upper limit a bit too low, unless the FT of healthy young males measured with Ultrafiltration shows a top of 22ng/dl?

 

[Jed Dorsey]

Some would say muscle growth is dose dependent but I say it’s genetically dependent. If you’re blessed with good genes you’ll grow but if you got sh#t genes like me you’ll need more. LOL
Some folks can drink two beers and be plastered for the rest of the evening some folks have to drink a twelve pack to even feel a buzz we’re all different bud

 

[Gman86]

Was at the gym the other day and overheard two guys talking about possibly going on TRT. One was 26 and the other 49. They both showed me recent labs they had done naturally. The 26 year old had a total of 600 and free T on the lower end. The 49 year old had a total around 300 and a low free T, but was pretty muscular and benches 400. The 26 year old was pretty muscular as well. And I talked to both of them for a good 20 minutes. Neither had much of a clue about TRT or exogenous testosterone or anything. So take that for what it’s worth. Clearly u can be extremely strong and build/ maintain muscle with a total T of 300, and a low free T. I’m sure not everyone would be the same with those numbers tho. Just saying that it’s absolutely possibly to have a lot of muscle and be very strong with very low T levels

 

[Ancart]

Some very good advice already about lifting and working out, but I want to address what you mentioned in your OP about dropping your dosage because of issues with hematocrit and BP.

What's your injection frequency? In my personal experience, 80mg 2x/week (160mg/week total) raised my lifelong perfect BP to 160/80 and gave me 24/7 headaches even after waiting 3 months for things to really settle down.

Very quickly after moving to 22mg/day (154mg/week, basically same as 160mg/week), all those negative side effects went away and my hematocrit also came down.

I know @Vince also mentioned not having to donate blood anymore after moving to daily injections.

Maybe something worth trying if you're injecting infrequently. It could easily be the reason behind the negative side effects you're seeing

Do you IM every day…or SubQ. Im at 3X a wk

 

[Drug350]

I'm 54 year's old and I'm on 80 MG's Testosterone Cypionate weekly. I have achieved a serious transformation from when my total testosterone was well below 200 NGDL. I have lost almost all my belly fat. I'm 6'0" tall and my waist, measured around my belly button is 30" with my hips at 32". I've gone from 36 waist jeans down to 32 waist and they're falling off me. I would go to a 30 waist but my hips and legs are too big and would be squeezed by them. I will say one thing though, I started on HCG 250 IU'S twice weekly about 10 weeks ago and that for me, made a HUGE difference. I haven't had the opportunity to work out the last two months, yet I look like I work out daily. I've kept almost all my muscle while losing a lot of body fat, specifically belly fat. My diet is clean. I don't eat any junk food. But I've been eating this way for year's and never looked like this. I'm a harsh critic on myself and even I'm astounded to be doing so little, yet looking so lean with each month getting better. TRT definitely helped, but the HCG made all the difference for me. Just my experience and opinion. I honestly don't know why this combo works so well for me but it does. I honestly feel like I could probably eat less stringent and I wouldn't put on any body fat. It's like my metabolism is on fire and I burn up everything I eat gaining no fat at all.

 

[Steve78]

I'm 54 year's old and I'm on 80 MG's Testosterone Cypionate weekly. I have achieved a serious transformation from when my total testosterone was well below 200 NGDL. I have lost almost all my belly fat. I'm 6'0" tall and my waist, measured around my belly button is 30" with my hips at 32". I've gone from 36 waist jeans down to 32 waist and they're falling off me. I would go to a 30 waist but my hips and legs are too big and would be squeezed by them. I will say one thing though, I started on HCG 250 IU'S twice weekly about 10 weeks ago and that for me, made a HUGE difference. I haven't had the opportunity to work out the last two months, yet I look like I work out daily. I've kept almost all my muscle while losing a lot of body fat, specifically belly fat. My diet is clean. I don't eat any junk food. But I've been eating this way for year's and never looked like this. I'm a harsh critic on myself and even I'm astounded to be doing so little, yet looking so lean with each month getting better. TRT definitely helped, but the HCG made all the difference for me. Just my experience and opinion. I honestly don't know why this combo works so well for me but it does. I honestly feel like I could probably eat less stringent and I wouldn't put on any body fat. It's like my metabolism is on fire and I burn up everything I eat gaining no fat at all.

How do you do the 80 mg? SQ? Frequency? What’s that out your test levels at?

 

[Jerajera]

Do you IM every day…or SubQ. Im at 3X a wk

"Shallow" IM in delts alternating sides daily with 29G 1/2 inch 0.5mL insulin syringes.

 

[TestTube]

I mean can I actually add some lean gains while doing 80 mg a week of testosterone which puts me at 600 TT?
I usually run test higher to add gains but then my HCT goes up and my BP goes up,,, I’m going to be 45 soon and I want to focus on health now over huge muscles but still wanna look lean and strong.

I built lots of muscle with TT under 250 years ago. But my DHEAs and IGF-1 were high. I actually built less muscle once my TT got up to 1800 or so, but I got bloated, acne, etc. YMMV. I'm a weirdo.

 

[pumacorp]

I mean can I actually add some lean gains while doing 80 mg a week of testosterone which puts me at 600 TT?
I usually run test higher to add gains but then my HCT goes up and my BP goes up,,, I’m going to be 45 soon and I want to focus on health now over huge muscles but still wanna look lean and strong.

Go get a sleep study.. Usually hemoglobin shooting up is sleep apnea when on TRT.... Get a CPAP for sleep hemoglobin Will be fine unless you have a blood disorder like polycythemia vera. etc

 

[Steve78]

Go get a sleep study.. Usually hemoglobin shooting up is sleep apnea when on TRT.... Get a CPAP for sleep hemoglobin Will be fine unless you have a blood disorder like polycythemia vera. etc

Def don’t have sleep apnea, I don’t snore at all, when I do lower dose trt I have no issues

 

[pumacorp]

Incredible that your E2 is so low despite Free T that high

Def don’t have sleep apnea, I don’t snore at all, when I do lower dose trt I have no issues

A lot of people don't snore with sleep apnea.. They have the obstruction kind (snore) and then the central nervous system kind (dont snore).. TRT is known to exacerbate sleep apnea..