Advise needed: after 6 months enclomiphene 12.5mg ED

[aneuman]

Hello,

I'm seeking advise from experts here, or at least opinions that can help me explain my situation.

- 60 yo man
- 6.0 feet tall
- 178 lbs
- 19.7 % body fat
- Generally healthy (No diabetes, Cardiovascular issues, thyroids, or any other conditions)

I started my journey with 490 ng/dl of total T and 27 pg/dl Estradiol mid last year. Symptoms were typical, lack of sensitivity, difficulty getting aroused, erections problems, insomnia, moodiness, long time to orgasm, etc.

First visit to renown Andrologist put me on 2000 iU of hCG (Empower). First month worked wonders, all symptoms improved, but month 2 and 3 were horrible, worse than before. At my request, he measured Total T and E2 which were at 309 ng/dl and 27 pg/dl respectively.

Since compounded hCG had been banned by the FDA, he put me on Enclomiphene 12.5 mg/day in January. By February by Total T has gone up to 706 ng/dL and E2 to 31 pg/dL. By mid March, total T was 787 ng/dL and E2 was 36 pg/dl.

Last week, my final exams, showed Total T to be 1183 ng/dl and E2 (sensitive) 33 pg/mL and Free T 138 pg/dL

By all counts the numbers are great, by my symptoms have not improved a bit, nothing, nada zilch. The only thing I can say improved a bit initially is the moodiness and tolerance to disagreements, and even that is starting to subside.

So great, enclomiphene is able to accomplish phenomenal values, but clinically, it doesn't improve any symptoms at all. If I remember correctly, that's one of the reasons that the FDA did not approve Androxal.

Where do I go from here? Additionally, compounded Enclomiphene has been banned by the FDA as well.

I have never taken exogenous testosterone. Would it make any difference compared to my natural T?

Thanks,

Luis

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I would let go of the enclomiphene. I have never seen anyone feeling sexual on it. It makes your numbers look great on paper, and fertility is improved. And the FDA also just banned compounded enclomiphene anyway.

Start TRT at 50 mg twice per week (Test cypionate or enanthate) using a 27 gauge 1/2 inch syringe injecting 90 degrees on your delts of hip area.
If you can tolerate it, start 10 mg Cialis every night also.

Download my free slide book. It's all in there:

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mailchi.mp

 

[aneuman]

I would let go of the enclomiphene. I have never seen anyone feeling sexual on it. It makes your numbers look great on paper, and fertility is improved. And the FDA also just banned compounded enclomiphene anyway.

Start TRT at 50 mg twice per week (Test cypionate or enanthate) using a 27 gauge 1/2 inch syringe injecting 90 degrees on your delts of hip area.
If you can tolerate it, start 10 mg Cialis every night also.

Download my free slide book. It's all in there:

Page Not Available | Mailchimp

mailchi.mp

Thank you Nelson!

I have already read your book, it's fantastic! and that's the protocol I think I'd like follow. I have an appointment with a new andrologist, as I'm truly disappointed in my first one. I'll try to lead him in that direction, my biggest fear is that when he sees the numbers he'll tell me "you're doing great! Congrats! See you later"

One question, would T-Cyp be enough to at least notice some improvement in the sexual area, or would I need hCG as well? My experience with hCG was miraculous, but short lived, as it's expensive, so I wonder if T-Cyp would be enough.

Thanks again.

A.N

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I am glad you liked the free ebook.

I have a strong bias for hCG since nothing else improves my sex drive.

I would use 50 mg testosterone plus 500 IU hCG like I do it here:

If you use DefyMedical.com I think they can still get hCG at a more reasonable price than the price shown on GoodRX.

 

[Systemlord]

I have never taken exogenous testosterone. Would it make any difference compared to my natural T?

It's the same molecule your body produces naturally, it's testosterone.

Older men 50> tend to repond to TRT much better than younger men.

My experience with hCG was miraculous, but short lived

This experience is common, same with the enclomiphene. Your also 60 years old and you testicles have mileage on them and so they don't work as efficiently as they used to.

 

[aneuman]

Nelson,

You've been very helpful. I did not know you could combine both meds in the same shot being water and oil based. Based on the video, I see you use IM instead of SubQ. My shoulders are waaaay less developed than yours so I don't know how it would feel, I had thought subQ would work as well, what do you think?

Regarding Defy, I've looked into it, but the $200/mo + meds price put me off. Anyway, if I decide to go the hCG route, it seems the price at regular retail pharmacies would be close to $300 even with GoodRx. So yes, it'll be hard to support this on my salary. Test-cyp is pretty cheap though, so I'll try 50mg twice a week and see.

Thanks for your help and support

A.N

 

[aneuman]

It's the same molecule your body produces naturally, it's testosterone.

Older men 50> tend to repond to TRT much better than younger men.


This experience is common, same with the enclomiphene. Your also 60 years old and you testicles have mileage on them and so they don't work as efficiently as they used to.

I agree on on mileage, definitely they've had a good run, and with a new carburetor they still shoot 1100, but you have to push harder on the gas (LH/FSH through the roof)

My only hesitation with TRT would be seeing them shrinking, it would break my heart!
(My wife doesn't really care, and might actually like it)

On a serious note, my true concern at the moment would be what Nelson mentioned earlier, about not seeing really improvement in the sexual area with TRT alone, without hCG. I know a lot of guys claim TRT is some kind of wonderful, but can I get a witness? (few people will understand the reference I guess)

Thanks

AN

 

[jacb]

Hi Aneuman. Thanks for sharing your experience with Enclomiphene.

I started with Testosterone (cypionate) and hCT and was happy with it until supply/cost became an issue. As you say the hCG cost seems to keep going up since the recent FDA ruling. hCG standards seem to change and now that Pregnyl has been discontinued, it’s been hard to find a reliable replacement. There are still various reasonably priced hCG suppliers online, but I have no idea how good they are, Eg: LINK.

Because of the hCG supply issues I started to consider Enclomiphene hence my interest in your experience, but now the FDA mess with that!

We are a similar age and I had to adjusts my T’ protocol to 110 mg Testosterone Cypinate per week due to HCT side effects. I currently “Micro Dose” every other day using a 29G x 1/2” IM. This seems to keep me in the mid 800 ng/dl range.

Good luck

 

[aneuman]

We are a similar age and I had to adjusts my T’ protocol to 110 mg Testosterone Cypinate per week due to HCT side effects. I currently “Micro Dose” every other day using a 29G x 1/2” IM. This seems to keep me in the mid 800 ng/dl range.

Good luck

jacb

Nice to meet you. One question, how much improvement T-Cypionate alone does for you? Do you get improved libido, erection, sensitivity? How about mood. One of the things enclomiphene has definitely helped me is making me less moody, and giving me glass-cutting nipples (effect is subsiding after I ended enclomiphene), other than that the effect is absolutely zero, even though total T is at an amazing 1183 ng/dL. I could say I had much better libido and sensitivity when my T was 287.

It seems most people seem to be at 100 mg per week split in two doses of 50 mg. Have you tried that? Based on feedback from this forum, this protocol keeps both estradiol and HCT at bay.

Nelson says something I suspected and I'm afraid of as well, and is that without hCG, these benefits we all want are really not that noticeable. Given how things are with hCG, that's probably a no-go for me. I either eat and pay rent or buy hCG.

I'd love to hear your experience.

AN

 

[jacb]

One question, how much improvement T-Cypionate alone does for you? Do you get improved libido, erection, sensitivity? How about mood. One of the things enclomiphene has definitely helped me is making me less moody, and giving me glass-cutting nipples (effect is subsiding after I ended enclomiphene), other than that the effect is absolutely zero, even though total T is at an amazing 1183 ng/dL. I could say I had much better libido and sensitivity when my T was 287.

I'd love to hear your experience.

I found that the Testosterone Cypionate by itself really helped with mental clarity, stoped the drowsiness and increased muscle tone. Maybe it stabilised mood swings as well, but to a lesser extent.

The down side was the testicular atrophy, reduced penile sensitivity, reduced ejaculate which made orgasms feel like, “phut“ rather than WOW event.

hCG reverse all of the downsides listed above.

Re libido and errection. With higher T doses I did get more frequent morning wood, which reduced when I reduced my T intake due to increasing HCT. Libido is more complicated than just T and a subject in itself. Have a look at the forum in general for more information.

Let us know how you get on. But my suggestion is the T and hCG combo if you can get/afford it.

 

[aneuman]

I found that the Testosterone Cypionate by itself really helped with mental clarity, stoped the drowsiness and increased muscle tone. Maybe it stabilised mood swings as well, but to a lesser extent.

The down side was the testicular atrophy, reduced penile sensitivity, reduced ejaculate which made orgasms feel like, “phut“ rather than WOW event.

hCG reverse all of the downsides listed above.

Re libido and errection. With higher T doses I did get more frequent morning wood, which reduced when I reduced my T intake due to increasing HCT. Libido is more complicated than just T and a subject in itself. Have a look at the forum in general for more information.

Let us know how you get on. But my suggestion is the T and hCG combo if you can get/afford it.

Interesting... I wonder what my problem really is or if we understand exactly how everything works. My TT is 1183, FT is a healthy 138, and E2 a good 31, and I have not had morning erections in moths, my sensitivity is really poor, and orgasm is like, quoting a great thinker, "phut rather than WOW event", as you said, only hCG reversed ALL that.

So at the end, is it really testosterone, or T/E2 ratio at all? What does hCG really do that has such a dramatic impact?

I believe Nelson got it right with his protocol, which I'd like to emulate, by biggest concern is price, as it'll be very difficult for me.

Thanks for your feedback.

AN

 

[JmarkH]

Shop an India pharmacy. ReliableRx is one, but you will find others if you use the search function.
Just don't jump into it without a qualified specialist advising your therapy.

 

[jacb]

My biggest concern is price, as it'll be very difficult for me.

Are money, as an old family friend said, “Money, personally I would have nothing to do with it, but people keep asking me for it”!

There is a cost to everything but hCG in the USA doesn't seem that expensive from some of the online companies. I agree you are not sure quite what you are getting unless you trust pier reviews such as the opinions expressed in this forum and others like it.

The LINK I previously posted showed a price for 5000iu of hCG at $36.10. If you took two 500iu shots a week, that $36.10 will last you 5 weeks … ?

What I have noticed is that not all HCG is the same. Pregnyl was excellent but is now discontinue. Corion was excellent but is now discontinue. Ovidac just didn’t seem to do the same thing for the same IU amount. It seemed “weak”.

 

[Systemlord]

I know a lot of guys claim TRT is some kind of wonderful, but can I get a witness?

I probably have had the toughest time on TRT than anyone. I mean have look at all my threads by clicking on the picture icon to the left and then my username and see for yourself.

The number of threads is daunting and taking a look myself, I look like a guy in crysis needing constant attention, but 4 years later things are completely turned around because I found something that works (Jatenzo).

 

[aneuman]

well guys,

I went to a different andrologist today. He told me that I should not try TRT as my testicles work perfectly well (TT=1183) and I have tried all the tricks in the book, but if hCG worked well, I should try it again and play with the dosage. He said anything from 500 to 3000 IU a week is fine. He'll have his secretary call me to obtain hCG. I don't know what the prove would be.

It seems that it's not all about testosterone, there's something hCG does somewhere in the body (brain, testicles, penis, or wherever) for those who respond that achieves something that testosterone cannot do.

He told me that my levels are typically achieved only through exogenous testosterone, not naturally. He asked several times if I took anything else, I said no, only Enclomiphene Citrate 12.5 mg ED for 6 months. In is opinon, enclomiphene and clomid have similar effect and the "estrogenic" effect has to do more with dosage than anything else. I have no opinion in this.

So I'm eagerly awaiting his call for an hCG prescription and restarting hCG mono therapy, this time Im planing to start with 500 IU twice a week and see how it goes.

I'd appreciate if anyone has anything to contribute or any suggestion to this protocol.

Appreciate all comments and wish you all the best. Will keep you posted.

Thanks,
A.N

 

[aneuman]

The LINK I previously posted showed a price for 5000iu of hCG at $36.10. If you took two 500iu shots a week, that $36.10 will last you 5 weeks … ?

What I have noticed is that not all HCG is the same. Pregnyl was excellent but is now discontinue. Corion was excellent but is now discontinue. Ovidac just didn’t seem to do the same thing for the same IU amount. It seemed “weak”.

I totally agree with you. Pregnyl seems to have the most consistent results for most people but it's discontinued now.

I'm afraid of injecting something like this without the confidence that the product has been manufactured with strict guidelines and it's not contaminated. Greed, for lack of a better word, is bad, and people would sell anything to make a buck. In the past, the milkman would add water to the milk, and all that happened is that you ingested less calcium than you had paid for, now the ethics of the thugs have fallen even lower ;-)

 

[aneuman]

Shop an India pharmacy. ReliableRx is one, but you will find others if you use the search function.
Just don't jump into it without a qualified specialist advising your therapy.

Interesting... I clicked on the link above and immediately got this warning from my browser

 

[Systemlord]

First month worked wonders, all symptoms improved, but month 2 and 3 were horrible, worse than before.

Some guys can't tolerate HCG at any dosage. It shouldn't be about only the numbers, you need to feel good for treatment to be a success.

 

[JmarkH]

Interesting... I clicked on the link above and immediately got this warning from my browser

Some settings in some browsers don't like any site that is foreign. I use TrendMicro AntiVirus and IE for browsing. IE is usually fairly strict and it doesn't flag ReliableRx. I have purchased from them without issues and the HCG was quality. Of course, you've got to use your own discernment.

 

[Steve78]

I just got 3 boxes of pregnyl 3 weeks ago, it’s been discontinued in the past few weeks? or is it on back order?