Advice on whether or not to start TRT or look for other causes

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It's up to him. I'm just offering my opinion.

He could try lower SHBG naturally. It's what I would do if i had a 900 TT.

I don't think 63% positive is a glowing endorsement for TRT. I don't have access to the full text of that study. But from the bits and pieces that are available:

I would point to the fact it seems to be limited to patients of a clinic that are currently recieving treatment, I can't see any mentions of treatment drop outs. (surely this skews the results positive - why would you be on treatment if you didnt see some sort of benefit)

It makes no mention of pre treatment levels (how many started with a TT of 900)

It is of limited scope in terms of time (6 months - I have had had many months where i felt incredible that were not sustainable)

Whatever the case. I'm just pointing out to OP that trt is not always the fix and that there are risks. Especially to EQ and libido - and that he has to go no further than read these forums which are inundated with people are dealing with negative outcomes for both.

Its not that easy to stop once you've been on for a while (the 37% who are unhappy with trt but still at the clinic being case in point). I'm in the middle of trying and its tough. Took me years to even start getting off.

Spent a lot of time trying to nail down the perfect protocol that was the answer to all my issues. Many gurus online and off gave me one thing to change or another saying that it would work. It never happened. My experience has lead me to have a negative bias on TRT.

Maybe it is his silver bullet idk. There were certainly moments of sunshine for me.

End of the day- Not a desicion I can make for him. Just urging caution.
I appreciate the words of caution! Have you stopped it at this point or are you still on? I am naturally a pretty cautious person and want to seek out information on positives and the negatives of something, especially something like this that messes with hormones.

To give a little more background. I started all of this in March (really not that long ago). For a while prior to that, honestly hard to quantify, likely years, I noticed a buildup in anxiety, exhaustion, irritability, lack of motivation and focus, occasional issues with ED but not often. I gained weight, up to 193 lbs and a size 36 jeans, this was the biggest I have been even at almost 6' tall. I noticed my blood pressure was creeping up, my heart rate was creeping up, exercise was horrible to do, and I generally just felt miserable, everything hurt all of the time.

I got COVID in Feb, I had such bad brain fog after that I was forgetting things that I should not have, it scared the hell out of me. Then the ED issue got worse. These things are always indicative of another issue. I decided to make changes and sort this out. Got a script for tadafil, awesome, it works like a charm even at a 2.5 mg dose, not sure I would want to stop taking it honestly. I changed my diet (somewhat to a fault, I just really didn't realize how low my calories were), I ate clean, low carb, essentially keto, so lots of veggies and good protein sources. Cut out sweets, stopped all alcohol (maybe a beer or two a day kinda guy before). Started making progress with weight loss. I added in exercise and while it sucked at first I was able to do more over time.

Got my labs checked as noted above. Despite being overweight (which I understand usually suppresses SHBG) I had a higher SHBG, low Free testosterone, and lower E2. Talked to the clinic doc, he thought it was genetic and thought to fix it I should start TRT. I declined saying I wanted to optimize my weight first and recheck things. He prescribed clomid, I was concerned about that and did not start it.

Things got better over the summer, I got the weight off, exercise tolerance up. By today I'm 152 lbs (too light), down to a 32 jeans, and overall feel better. I'm not as irritable as I used to be, I like being able to run essentially a 5K three days a week, rock climb weekly, do martial arts 2-3 x a week. Brain fog has improved a lot too, I'll forget things occasionally, but who doesn't. Blood pressure, amazing, 100/60. Heart rate, 40's-50's now resting. The libido, ehhh, I don't know, not really better. ED, no problems now with tadalafil, but that's with medicine, it is a bandaid. Anxiety and confidence is better too.

The symptoms I'm still having, tired, joints and back hurt like hell most of the time, the other issues I mentioned above. So overall, yes many symptoms improved, some still exist and are significant. I still can't really build muscle and seem to have hit a plateau with the exercise a while back, yep I can crank out a run, but not any further than that 5K. Still can't kick the last tiny bit of belly fat, but it is mostly flat.

The things I'm worried about, the long term health impacts of what my labs are telling me. SHBG being high could be genetic, it could be a sign of another problem. If it is indeed genetic TRT should help with that, and it will fix my low Free testosterone. Why do I care about the SHBG being high, and please, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, it leads to less bone density and is correlated with vertebral fractures in older men, loss of libido, ED, along with other longer term health issues. I do believe as system lord noted, just chasing that number will not fix the problem, lower the SHBG at best may result in a temporary improvement in numbers, but not long lasting (if what I'm reading is accurate). I also think since it was high when I first got labs, not in a calorie deficit I won't fix it with supplements or diet adjustment. It may very well be what Systemlord mentioned about the low free testosterone leading to the SHBG higher.

I also have pretty low estrogen, it dropped though this too, my understanding is that could also contribute to the libido issues. Besides that, it also contributes to other functions and overall health. I may be one of those people who doesn't aromatize enough to need anastrozole. The doctor didn't think I would, but gave me the AI with a (don't use it unless things get bad, and he did let me know we could change the testosterone dose). It would be good to have it a little higher though.

Will I start TRT? At this point you all have given me a lot of good things to think about, positive and negative, and I really do appreciate it.

I probably will, but first I'm checking a full Iron panel, and thyroid panel, along with a salivary cortisol, these things were not checked before other than a TSH. I'm also rechecking the free testosterone with dialysis as suggested so I know. If I have something up with my thyroid, or if I have hemochromatosis (I doubt either), I would want to know this before I start, as treating either of these could mean things do get better without TRT. In which case I re-evaluate where my testosterone numbers are after treatment. Again, I don't suspect I have these, but I want the initial numbers before starting TRT.

Since I finally started tracking calories about a month ago and figured out how little I was getting in, I have added more calories, a few more carbs, pushed the protein up to 1 gram/lb at a minimum. Still nutrient dense food and not crap, I rarely eat out, and even then will get a salad.


Either his Free T levels are low and warrant treatment or there not, which is it?

Lowering high SHBG is a fools errand.

Also, lowering SHBG will not increase Free T. SHBG doesn’t increase Free T, no mechanism for that.

LH stimulation within the testicles is the main driver of T production. In some cases high SHBG is a direct result of low testosterone, since androgens suppress SHBG.

His SHBG is over 100 (!), let’s not fool ourselves here, there’s no fixing this naturally.
I completely agree. Not going to fix it naturally. The free T also does warrant treatment. Beyond just for a hope in improvement of symptoms and to build muscle (because that would be nice), but for the downstream health impacts, I don't want the bone density of an 80 y/o in my 40s.

I want to verify that something else isn't happening.

I am glad you all have been so willing to give advice and opinions. I am under no illusion that if I do go forward things will not always be great and it will take time to get right. I also understand that it might make things worse, and I might not tolerate it and have to stop.

I am questioning the need for HCG. I'm not having anymore kids and it would add another factor to figuring out what's helping/not helping. The testosterone dose of 200 mg/week (divided in two), he explained was to overcome the relatively high total levels I have. I do wonder if it is too much with what I have learned here.

Thank you all again, I'm pretty new to this stuff, so I'm still learning. If there something I'm not understanding quite right let me know!
 
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Forgot to mention, I did try Boron 10 mg since March without any luck. I do supplement Vitamin C, vitamin D, calcium, DHEA, zinc with copper/selenium, magnesium, lysine, and b complex.
 
Why do I care about the SHBG being high, and please, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, it leads to less bone density and is correlated with vertebral fractures in older men, loss of libido, ED, along with other longer term health issues.
It's by association only. Your the example, a guy with extremely high SHBG, low Free T and low E2.

Estrogen is critical for skeletal homeostasis and regulates bone remodeling.

High SHBG in isolation isn't a problem. Most diseases are associated with low SHBG, like type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome, obesity and hypothyroidism to name a few.

There have been members with high SHBG, slightly above range Free T and normal estrogen who is not on hormone therapy. This basically kills the idea that high SHBG lowers Free T. -->

 
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Forgot to mention, I did try Boron 10 mg since March without any luck. I do supplement Vitamin C, vitamin D, calcium, DHEA, zinc with copper/selenium, magnesium, lysine, and b complex.
Why are you taking a calcium supplement? Did you just have surgery for broken bones or have a recent implant? If not then you shouldn’t be taking calcium supplements they are actually proven to increase heart problems. Try adding K2 supplement with your D3 as it helps absorption and keeps calcium in the bones and out of the blood stream.
And yes the TRT protocol is way too high. slow and low with repeated labs until dialed in if you decide to go forward with it.
 
I am trying to decide whether or not to start TRT or keep looking for another root cause as to why my bloodwork and symptoms are the way they are. I am 46 years old, decided to get labs checked and found a normal total T with low free T and high SHBG. Borderline hemoglobin A1c. I decided to get healthier, lost 40 lbs (since March), exercise a lot, starting to lift now. No alcohol, other drugs. I had typical non-specific symptoms of being tired, skinny fat appearance, no libido, ED (I had never had this until the months leading up to my first lab work. Fast forward from March until now, 40 lbs lights, in shape, have more energy (seems better, not always great), still a small amount of belly fat that just won't go away, still not much of a libido. I'm on 2.5 of tadalafil so that issue is better at least. Blood pressure is solid (110/70), resting HR in the 50's. With my latest lab work, total T was great, high actually, Free T was even lower (6), and SHBG >100. A1c up another 0.1 so it really didn't improve.

I talked with the doctor at the clinic and he suggested proceeding with TRT (he had offered me this in March but I want to try weight loss first). Hope is my Free T will improve, SHBG will decrease, and adding muscle mass will help with the A1c. I understand what he is saying is accurate. I am concerned about whether or not I should keep searching for other causes for the high SHBG before I commit to something that could be lifelong.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just quite conflicted about this and I'm hoping to obtain some insight from others. I thought about giving it a try for 4-6 months and seeing what my numbers do and how I feel. I am also concerned about coming back off of it and whether my endogenous production will return to baseline.

March 2023
Weight 193
Total Test 566
Free Test. 8.8
SHBG 59
LH 2.9
Estradiol 15.6
IGF-1 164
DHEA-S 144

November 2023
Weight 153
Total test 923
Free Test 6
SHBG 103
LH 3.8
Estradiol 14
DHEA-S 117
IGF-1 186

My starting regimen would be, 100 mg test cyp Monday and Thursday (200 a week), HCG 500 iu Monday and Thursday (1000/week). AI 0.125 only for symptoms. I have everything, just haven't started taking it yet.
Don't start TRT. Work on your diabetic issues. Do anything low carb whatever you need to do. Lower your AC under. 5. You'll be happy that you didn't start TRT.
 
Don't start TRT. Work on your diabetic issues. Do anything low carb whatever you need to do. Lower your AC under. 5. You'll be happy that you didn't start TRT.
I have had a low carb diet since about March, unfortunately, my a1c went up (granted a 0.1 is not really much of a change). This with the weight loss, exercise and all, it is quite frustrating. I am also not at a point where I think my doctor would start metformin, nor do I really want it. What low carb did get me though was a much higher SHBG and lower free testosterone (the calorie deficit didn't help either). I'm currently waiting on lab results from Quest with a free testosterone via EQ dialysis as suggested.

I don't know what I'll do yet. As I mentioned before I don't take the decision lightly about starting it, and I may not. Since my early December results with the worse numbers I have focused on adding in protein, adding weight training, adding healthy carbs, and increasing calories to fix the deficit I was in.


Why are you taking a calcium supplement? Did you just have surgery for broken bones or have a recent implant? If not then you shouldn’t be taking calcium supplements they are actually proven to increase heart problems. Try adding K2 supplement with your D3 as it helps absorption and keeps calcium in the bones and out of the blood stream.
And yes the TRT protocol is way too high. slow and low with repeated labs until dialed in if you decide to go forward with it.

Thanks for the input on this, I'll look at the K2 and consider cutting out the calcium. The higher dose seemed like a lot.
 
I have had a low carb diet since about March, unfortunately, my a1c went up (granted a 0.1 is not really much of a change). This with the weight loss, exercise and all, it is quite frustrating. I am also not at a point where I think my doctor would start metformin, nor do I really want it. What low carb did get me though was a much higher SHBG and lower free testosterone (the calorie deficit didn't help either). I'm currently waiting on lab results from Quest with a free testosterone via EQ dialysis as suggested.

I don't know what I'll do yet. As I mentioned before I don't take the decision lightly about starting it, and I may not. Since my early December results with the worse numbers I have focused on adding in protein, adding weight training, adding healthy carbs, and increasing calories to fix the deficit I was in.




Thanks for the input on this, I'll look at the K2 and consider cutting out the calcium. The higher dose seemed like a lot.
What is your A1C at?
 
It's up to him. I'm just offering my opinion.

He could try lower SHBG naturally. It's what I would do if i had a 900 TT.

I don't think 63% positive is a glowing endorsement for TRT. I don't have access to the full text of that study. But from the bits and pieces that are available:

I would point to the fact it seems to be limited to patients of a clinic that are currently recieving treatment, I can't see any mentions of treatment drop outs. (surely this skews the results positive - why would you be on treatment if you didnt see some sort of benefit)

It makes no mention of pre treatment levels (how many started with a TT of 900)

It is of limited scope in terms of time (6 months - I have had had many months where i felt incredible that were not sustainable)

Whatever the case. I'm just pointing out to OP that trt is not always the fix and that there are risks. Especially to EQ and libido - and that he has to go no further than read these forums which are inundated with people are dealing with negative outcomes for both.

Its not that easy to stop once you've been on for a while (the 37% who are unhappy with trt but still at the clinic being case in point). I'm in the middle of trying and its tough. Took me years to even start getting off.

Spent a lot of time trying to nail down the perfect protocol that was the answer to all my issues. Many gurus online and off gave me one thing to change or another saying that it would work. It never happened. My experience has lead me to have a negative bias on TRT.

Maybe it is his silver bullet idk. There were certainly moments of sunshine for me.

End of the day- Not a desicion I can make for him. Just urging caution.
If, like @jchems, OP had good erectile function and mood with low natural numbers, I'd agree but he's not. I read the forums, too, and yes, for some men, TRT makes things worse, not better, even if the labs look good. For the absolute outliers, it can take several YEARS for across the board improvements. Also, no one mentioned that OP's DHEA-S is subpar. Age adjusted lab ranges aren't just a joke; they're dangerous. For Quest, the top of total testosterone is now 827 ng/dL, IIRC.

Again, if OP, even with low free testosterone, was feeling and functioning good, then end of story. Nor would he be posting here! He'd be living his life. My experience with TRT hasn't been ideal but I know I'm deriving benefits and my urologist keeps working with me. I'm medically complicated, so it's not point A to point B and all is good. I have friends in my age range(70s) who are physically declining, despite doing exactly what their doctor recommends, along with taking many medications. I'm not. Still strong and generally have decent energy, even with untreatable bipolar illness.

You're right; In the end, we all make our own informed decisions.
 
I think you should try metformin at least 1500 mg daily and see what results you get. I'll be interested to see if it lowers your SHBG.
Thanks Vince. My concern with metformin is that the research I can find indicates that it raises SHBG and lowers Free and total testosterone. Much of the research seems to revolve around women with PCOS (polycystic ovarian disease). However there is an older study with a smaller sample size of 12 healthy men which had similar findings of raising SHBG and lower testosterone, even though a small size the findings appear to be statistically significant.


In another study of obese diabetic and obese non-diabetic males they found an impact to testosterone levels in both groups, and an increase in SHBG in the non-diabetic group. This patient population also doesn't exactly apply to me as I am anything but obese at this point and have successfully kept off any extra weight for quite a number of months.

Also, of interest, typically it seems those with diabetes or obese tend to have a lower SHBG, I'm the opposite. There also seems to be some thought that higher levels of SHBG offer a protective effect from T2DM.


This next study had a slightly different focus looking at men with hyperprolactenemia and new onset T2DM, finding an association between endogenous testosterone and metformin benefits. They also noted an increase in SHBG during treatment. This was a smaller sample size also with about 28 patients.


I'm really trying to learn and understand these relationships and I do appreciate the help.

An increase in lean muscle mass seems to also lead to improved insulin sensitivity and also allows from more efficient utilization of glucose and conversion to glycogen stores within the muscle from what I understand.

The doctor at the clinic after recommending I start testosterone (I know these can be biased), had a rationale of hoping to see an increase in muscle mass and improvement in my A1c. If this failed he did mention starting metformin. A repeat A1c is part of the 3 month follow up lab work he wants.
 

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If, like @jchems, OP had good erectile function and mood with low natural numbers, I'd agree but he's not. I read the forums, too, and yes, for some men, TRT makes things worse, not better, even if the labs look good. For the absolute outliers, it can take several YEARS for across the board improvements. Also, no one mentioned that OP's DHEA-S is subpar. Age adjusted lab ranges aren't just a joke; they're dangerous. For Quest, the top of total testosterone is now 827 ng/dL, IIRC.

Again, if OP, even with low free testosterone, was feeling and functioning good, then end of story. Nor would he be posting here! He'd be living his life. My experience with TRT hasn't been ideal but I know I'm deriving benefits and my urologist keeps working with me. I'm medically complicated, so it's not point A to point B and all is good. I have friends in my age range(70s) who are physically declining, despite doing exactly what their doctor recommends, along with taking many medications. I'm not. Still strong and generally have decent energy, even with untreatable bipolar illness.

You're right; In the end, we all make our own informed decisions.
You are 100% correct, if I felt great I certainly would not be posting and would not consider this as a treatment option. I appreciate your viewpoint. My last DHEA-S was obtained after being off DHEA 25 mg for a week or so (I ran out.). I am back on now and have a ton on hand, that will be part of my repeat blood work.

I do plan to obtain bloodwork again whether or not start TRT.

I had mentioned before looking into a few other labs. The TSH, free T3, and free T3, all seemed in decent range. Ferritin was 92, Iron panel was WNL.
 
You are 100% correct, if I felt great I certainly would not be posting and would not consider this as a treatment option. I appreciate your viewpoint. My last DHEA-S was obtained after being off DHEA 25 mg for a week or so (I ran out.). I am back on now and have a ton on hand, that will be part of my repeat blood work.

I do plan to obtain bloodwork again whether or not start TRT.

I had mentioned before looking into a few other labs. The TSH, free T3, and free T3, all seemed in decent range. Ferritin was 92, Iron panel was WNL.
You're welcome. You're doing it right, looking at the factors that impact health and function. TRT is an art. If it was as simple as taking a given dose that would always elicit a positive response, any doctor could do it. Yes; sometimes it is that straightforward. Who knows how many men are on various forms of testosterone, functioning well and enjoying their lives? Keep at it and see where the journey takes you.
 
I received the Quest Diagnostics dialysis Free Testosterone back, along with total testosterone, shbg, and ultrasensitive estradiol. The free testosterone is higher on this when using the same units as Labcorp. Can someone shed light on the interpretation of these results?

When I use the online calculators I come up with a free testosterone of 7.34 ng/dL or 73.4 pg/mL (based on the new labs), on the labs from November I would have a free testosterone of 9.18 ng/dL or 91.8 pg/mL.

It appears both Quest and Labcorp report the results in pg/mL, so they should be comparable, however even the reference ranges are widely different and so are my results. It is almost like what Labcorp reported in pg/mL is similar to the calculated values in ng/dL. Converting the Labcorp result of 6.0 pg/mL to ng/dL yields 0.6 ng/dL.

Converting my new result from pg/mL to ng/dL 66.2 (pg/mL)-->6.62 (ng/dL).

Thanks again, and I'm probably looking at something wrong. What is the more preferable value for looking at these numbers?

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Partly answered back in post 12. "If this is Labcorp and the so-called 'direct' test was used then it is useless and must not be relied on." View the immunoassay-based tests as attempting to measure some proxy for free testosterone that at least correlates well with the actual levels, even if the absolute numbers are completely different. But these tests fail even at this, and must be ignored.

What you're left with are two of the best methods, equilibrium dialysis and the Vermeulen calculation. These methods are shown to correlate pretty well. However, I recall that @tareload provided a reduction factor of maybe 0.6 or 0.7, which scales calculated FT to be closer to equilibrium dialysis. In any case, your numbers are low-normal, meaning that there is some risk of symptoms.

The previous advice still stands: Use of testosterone nasal gel is a relatively safe way to find out if higher testosterone would be helpful.
 
Partly answered back in post 12. "If this is Labcorp and the so-called 'direct' test was used then it is useless and must not be relied on." View the immunoassay-based tests as attempting to measure some proxy for free testosterone that at least correlates well with the actual levels, even if the absolute numbers are completely different. But these tests fail even at this, and must be ignored.

What you're left with are two of the best methods, equilibrium dialysis and the Vermeulen calculation. These methods are shown to correlate pretty well. However, I recall that @tareload provided a reduction factor of maybe 0.6 or 0.7, which scales calculated FT to be closer to equilibrium dialysis. In any case, your numbers are low-normal, meaning that there is some risk of symptoms.

The previous advice still stands: Use of testosterone nasal gel is a relatively safe way to find out if higher testosterone would be helpful.
Thanks! I will think about the nasal gel as an alternative.

It seems that I would want to convert the EQ free testosterone from pg/mL to ng/dL to make it comparable to the Vermeulen calculation (the calculator I found expressed it as ng/dL) and to the total testosterone. Then I would derive a percent of free testosterone as 1.03% compared to total.

I'm also going to only have it tested at one lab in the future, this will be the equilibrium dialysis method.
 
I received the Quest Diagnostics dialysis Free Testosterone back, along with total testosterone, shbg, and ultrasensitive estradiol. The free testosterone is higher on this when using the same units as Labcorp. Can someone shed light on the interpretation of these results?

When I use the online calculators I come up with a free testosterone of 7.34 ng/dL or 73.4 pg/mL (based on the new labs), on the labs from November I would have a free testosterone of 9.18 ng/dL or 91.8 pg/mL.

It appears both Quest and Labcorp report the results in pg/mL, so they should be comparable, however even the reference ranges are widely different and so are my results. It is almost like what Labcorp reported in pg/mL is similar to the calculated values in ng/dL. Converting the Labcorp result of 6.0 pg/mL to ng/dL yields 0.6 ng/dL.

Converting my new result from pg/mL to ng/dL 66.2 (pg/mL)-->6.62 (ng/dL).

Thanks again, and I'm probably looking at something wrong. What is the more preferable value for looking at these numbers?

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New:

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Forget getting caught up on comparing assays/reference ranges between all the different labs.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum always test using the same lab/assay (most accurate) TT (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Equilibrium Ultrafiltration) especially in cases of altered SHBG!

If you do not have access to such (highly doubtful) if you live in the US then you will need to use/rely upon the cFTV.

Keep in mind as of now cFTV tends to overestimate somewhat when compared against the gold-standard Equilibrium Dialysis so your FT may very well be somewhat lower.

As you can see your FT using what would be considered the most accurate assay is just above the bottom end of the reference range.

Your FT level is dismal and far from what would be considered healthy.

Although you are hitting a robust TT 637 ng/dL your SHBG is absurdly high at 80 nmol/L which has your FT close to being in the gutter!




Look over post #11



 
Beyond Testosterone Book by Nelson Vergel
Forget getting caught up on comparing assays/reference ranges between all the different labs.

As I have stated numerous times on the forum always test using the same lab/assay (most accurate) TT (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Equilibrium Ultrafiltration) especially in cases of altered SHBG!

If you do not have access to such (highly doubtful) if you live in the US or Canada then you will need to use/rely upon the cFTV.

Keep in mind as of now cFTV tends to overestimate somewhat when compared against the gold-standard Equilibrium Dialysis so your FT may very well be somewhat lower.

As you can see your FT using what would be considered the most accurate assay is just above the bottom end of the reference range.

Your FT level is dismal and far from what would be considered healthy.

Although you are hitting a robust TT 637 ng/dL your SHBG is absurdly high at 80 nmol/L which has your FT close to being in the gutter!




Look over post #11



Thanks so much, I will go over all of these! So my lastest result utilizes Equilibrium Dialysis (I'm in the US). From what you are saying, the latest method of testing (dialysis) should be what I stick with since I have altered SHBG levels?
 
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