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funghi2

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Hello all, been lurking around this treasure chest of a site. so much excellent info here, thanks to all that post. im 48 year old male, in decent shape. Have played around w bio hacking for 15 years or so. I prob have Familial hypercholesterolemia, my cholesterol is usually in the 380 - 425 range total. Im also slightly hypothyroid. so i take 1.5gr armour ED. My docs have pushed to put me on statins for many many years but i just dont see the point as all my inflammation markers are normal to low. I even got a calcium score done recently bc that was supposed to be the dr's smoking gun to show the damage high LDL was doing to me, my score was zero. anyway, i used to weigh 232 (height 5 10), but went on IF protocol 2 years ago and now fluctuate between 180 and 190. i started mounjaro as well last year.

Anyway, Ive been on and off test for many years as my blood tests are usually between 180 and 250 unmedicated. my most recent trial was natesto. great peaks at 1100 but in between doses crash to 190. and man o man was that annoying putting that oil up your nose 3 times per day. miserable. just started Kyzatrex 2 weeks ago, have to say i feel amazing. im going to schedule labs shortly to see where im at. my main question is this, i try to stay away from Prop bc i want a more natural pulsing of testosterone. but i also dont like the idea of the troughs getting down below 200! is this belief of mine unfounded? does anyone have a graph that shows normal pulsing levels? i saw one online that showed a base of around 500 that rose to 800 and went back down to 500, but im not sure if thats typical. I dont love the idea of sticking myself w pins EOD either. Would it be helpful to do a small dose of ENT or PROP, lets say 50 -100mg per week just to raise my floor level of test while staying on the TU to keep the daily pulse going? As far as testing, is there any need to test for the trough level as well as peak? I was thinking of buying a few salivary testosterone kits and doing one every 3 hours from waking pre TU dose to 2nd dose. So 8am (then take TU right after), 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm. would you change timing on that? is salivary testing for this a valid approach?

Also considering adding a few peptides like cjc/ipa, are you guys fans?

Lastly, im sure its buried in the pinned posts somewhere but is there a guide to where you want your labs to be as far as E2, SHBG, FH, LH etc.?
 

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funghi2 said:
My docs have pushed to put me on statins for many many years but i just dont see the point as all my inflammation markers are normal to low. I even got a calcium score done recently bc that was supposed to be the dr's smoking gun to show the damage high LDL was doing to me, my score was zero. anyway
Click to expand...
My doctors have pushed statin on me for years, even as my health improves, very pushy which is strange in a medical system that often dismisses patients symptoms but when it comes to drugs, they are more than happy provide services.

Doctors are pawns and their purpose is to push pharmaceutical interest onto consumers. Doctors are often lied to by the very people that run the medical schools, Big Pharma who funds the clinic trials and pays doctors running those clinic trials often downplaying risks and exaggerating the benefits.

Statin clinical trials show that statins extend life span at the most by 4.5 days!

Statins are inferior to dietary changes but doctors don't know this because it's suppressed in the medical literature.
 
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Systemlord said:
My doctors have pushed statin on me for years, even as my health improves, very pushy which is strange in a medical system that often dismisses patients symptoms but when it comes to drugs, they are more than happy provide services.

Doctors are pawns and their purpose is to push pharmaceutical interest onto consumers. Doctors are often lied to by the very people that run the medical schools, Big Pharma who funds the clinic trials and pays doctors running those clinic trials often downplaying risks and exaggerating the benefits.

Statin clinical trials show that statins extend life span at the most by 4.5 days!

Statins are inferior to dietary changes but doctors don't know this because it's suppressed in the medical literature.
Click to expand...
obv w my insane numbers ive been worried about it so ive been researching it for 2 decades or so, but i do agree with most of your assessment. i think for the most part its not nefarious on the part of the doctors. there are dozens of studies out there "proving" causation, and the docs get handed their marching orders from the AMA. the billions upon billions of dolalrs pharma makes on these drugs affect AMA policy and what studies get funding?? that doesnt seem like too large a leap for me. i think high cholesterol in an inflamed state can be a problem for CVD. Then again i also think normal cholesterol in an inflamed state is a problem for CVD too! maybe thats why 50% of all heart attacks happen to people w normal to low cholesterol. to my doctors credit after all these years and now the calcium score i got , he seems to be coming around to the idea that theres more to the story.
 
funghi2 said:
systemlord, i read that 19 page whopper of a post on jatenzo that you posted on. whats your trt protocol these days?
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I quit TRT 3 months ago and I’m doing very well. My TT and FT are low but feel much better than when my TT and FT was higher. My muscles in the last two weeks have gotten harder, I’m stronger.

My muscles were never this hard on TRT, except when very near an iron deficient state, which is how I figured out my problem. My muscles haven’t been this hard since before I had medical problems.

I’m still recovering from what TRT did to me, which I believe, changed my iron uptake and messed with my vitamin D pathway, creating iron overload conditions from the suppression of hepcidin, which makes iron more bioavailable in the body and changes the way the body uses iron.

I remember the first week off the TRT. My muscles would be getting harder if I woke up and didn’t eat anything and I would eat a steak, which has iron in it and immediately my muscles will be going from being hard, firm to being soft.

Three to four weeks ago if I ate a steak, my legs and skin would burn, which is what happened to years ago when I would take iron supplements. That doesn’t happen anymore.

I couldn’t tolerate vitamin D supplementation or normal vitamin D on TRT without horrific symptoms. I had to maintain low vitamin D levels just to feel halfway decent. Now I can push my levels above 30 and not have the same issues.

Vitamin D affects iron bio availability and so does TRT.

www.excelmale.com

My HPTA recovery log: I have reversed my type 2 diabetes (SHBG 31/glucose 80) and may have never had hypogonadism!!

I’ve made the decision to come off TRT and restore my natural hormone production and reverse my diabetes. I’ve identified my problems on TRT and they are as follows, Testosterone suppresses hepcidin, which is a peptide hormone that regulates iron absorption. When hepcidin is suppressed more iron...
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ill have to dig in to iron/ferritin aspect. im hetero for HC im thinking maybe that drives my ferritin up. I used to test at 350. started giving blood and drove that down to like 50. havent donated in a year or 2 and im back up to 150. where do you like to see ferritin at?
 
funghi2 said:
Hello all, been lurking around this treasure chest of a site. so much excellent info here, thanks to all that post. im 48 year old male, in decent shape. Have played around w bio hacking for 15 years or so. I prob have Familial hypercholesterolemia, my cholesterol is usually in the 380 - 425 range total. Im also slightly hypothyroid. so i take 1.5gr armour ED. My docs have pushed to put me on statins for many many years but i just dont see the point as all my inflammation markers are normal to low. I even got a calcium score done recently bc that was supposed to be the dr's smoking gun to show the damage high LDL was doing to me, my score was zero. anyway, i used to weigh 232 (height 5 10), but went on IF protocol 2 years ago and now fluctuate between 180 and 190. i started mounjaro as well last year.

Anyway, Ive been on and off test for many years as my blood tests are usually between 180 and 250 unmedicated. my most recent trial was natesto. great peaks at 1100 but in between doses crash to 190. and man o man was that annoying putting that oil up your nose 3 times per day. miserable. just started Kyzatrex 2 weeks ago, have to say i feel amazing. im going to schedule labs shortly to see where im at. my main question is this, i try to stay away from Prop bc i want a more natural pulsing of testosterone. but i also dont like the idea of the troughs getting down below 200! is this belief of mine unfounded? does anyone have a graph that shows normal pulsing levels? i saw one online that showed a base of around 500 that rose to 800 and went back down to 500, but im not sure if thats typical. I dont love the idea of sticking myself w pins EOD either. Would it be helpful to do a small dose of ENT or PROP, lets say 50 -100mg per week just to raise my floor level of test while staying on the TU to keep the daily pulse going? As far as testing, is there any need to test for the trough level as well as peak? I was thinking of buying a few salivary testosterone kits and doing one every 3 hours from waking pre TU dose to 2nd dose. So 8am (then take TU right after), 11am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm. would you change timing on that? is salivary testing for this a valid approach?

Also considering adding a few peptides like cjc/ipa, are you guys fans?

Lastly, im sure its buried in the pinned posts somewhere but is there a guide to where you want your labs to be as far as E2, SHBG, FH, LH etc.?
Click to expand...
How long after dosing Natesto did you get your blood draw for that 932 ng/dl? Were you doing anything different with the administration?
 
MegaTurd said:
How long after dosing Natesto did you get your blood draw for that 932 ng/dl? Were you doing anything different with the administration?
Click to expand...
i didnt keep great records of that but the draw was at 3:30pm and i usually dosed that at 9am, 3pm, 9pm. so if that was a normal day it wouldve been about .5 to 1 hour after dose.

if you look at my october draw results that were very low, that was collected at around 2pm so that was probably @5 hours after dose. i dont like how high and low the wave gets .
 
funghi2 said:
i didnt keep great records of that but the draw was at 3:30pm and i usually dosed that at 9am, 3pm, 9pm. so if that was a normal day it wouldve been about .5 to 1 hour after dose.

if you look at my october draw results that were very low, that was collected at around 2pm so that was probably @5 hours after dose. i dont like how high and low the wave gets .
Click to expand...
From what I’ve gathered, it’s the peaks that facilitate the symptomatic improvements. It’s looking more and more like it’s the chronically high troughs that are responsible for the side effects we all come on to these forums to complain about.

You pulled some great numbers on Natesto! If I were you, I’d reconsider ditching it. In Natesto studies, symptom improvement was on par with other modalities in spite of those returns to baseline in the 250-350 range.
 
MegaTurd said:
From what I’ve gathered, it’s the peaks that facilitate the symptomatic improvements. It’s looking more and more like it’s the chronically high troughs that are responsible for the side effects we all come on to these forums to complain about.

You pulled some great numbers on Natesto! If I were you, I’d reconsider ditching it. In Natesto studies, symptom improvement was on par with other modalities in spite of those returns to baseline in the 250-350 range.
Click to expand...
thank you for your input. ill be honest it wasnt that big of a deal at first, but by the end i really hated putting that stuff up my nose!!

so you dont think a very low trough is anything to be concerned about? from the charts i was able to find online it seems a healthy natural swing is about 200. my swing is probably around 800!
 
Well I wouldn’t necessarily compare those swings to the diurnal swings in endogenous production from a symptomology perspective because we’re talking about two different systems… one fed by endogenous production and the other by exogenous through a mucous membrane 3x/day. Def think it’s helpful to consider from a speculation perspective though.

There are some old studies out there where they sampled T once or twice an hour for days at a time in healthy volunteers. The daily and even weekly fluctuation in T was truly eye opening. Some guys, despite hitting acceptable peaks, saw their numbers drop greater than 20%… like 50% or more for some. Despite what’s propagated out there in the ether, I don’t think we fully understand all of the nuance, intricacies, and individual variation that comprises T metabolism.

The previous Natesto studies I referenced including some of the topical and oral studies demonstrated symptomatic improvement in spite of drastic returns to baseline or low troughs. I think the one takeaway from these studies is that it’s the peaks that matter from a symptomology perspective.

Not that we should compare apples and oranges but… daily peaks and troughs are more in line with what the human body is designed and accustomed to dealing with vs the chronically high levels experienced on testosterone esters.

Just some food for thought.
 
MegaTurd said:
Well I wouldn’t necessarily compare those swings to the diurnal swings in endogenous production from a symptomology perspective because we’re talking about two different systems… one fed by endogenous production and the other by exogenous through a mucous membrane 3x/day. Def think it’s helpful to consider from a speculation perspective though.

There are some old studies out there where they sampled T once or twice an hour for days at a time in healthy volunteers. The daily and even weekly fluctuation in T was truly eye opening. Some guys, despite hitting acceptable peaks, saw their numbers drop greater than 20%… like 50% or more for some. Despite what’s propagated out there in the ether, I don’t think we fully understand all of the nuance, intricacies, and individual variation that comprises T metabolism.

The previous Natesto studies I referenced including some of the topical and oral studies demonstrated symptomatic improvement in spite of drastic returns to baseline or low troughs. I think the one takeaway from these studies is that it’s the peaks that matter from a symptomology perspective.

Not that we should compare apples and oranges but… daily peaks and troughs are more in line with what the human body is designed and accustomed to dealing with vs the chronically high levels experienced on testosterone esters.

Just some food for thought.
Click to expand...
you make some good points. sometimes we get lost in the details and lose sight of whats most important. to that end, i "feel" better on the kyzatrex than i ever did on natesto, i have yet to get any bloodwork yet so we will see what the numbers say.
 
funghi2 said:
you make some good points. sometimes we get lost in the details and lose sight of whats most important. to that end, i "feel" better on the kyzatrex than i ever did on natesto, i have yet to get any bloodwork yet so we will see what the numbers say.
Click to expand...
I’ve got a few concerns with the new orals. For one we just don’t have the long term use data. What does hundreds of milligrams of TU in the lymphatics do if anything good or bad? What about excreting 10% via the intestines? My biggest concerns involve ingesting the “other ingredients” over the next 30 years and the real consequences of crushing SHBG. There is a lot of newer work out there shining a light on the many beneficial roles of SHBG independent of burgaling your free T which of course we know isn’t entirely accurate. Lots we still don’t understand about SHBG. On Kyzatrex mine was crushed into the low teens when it normally sits in the high 30s low 40s. Not a healthy place to be for the next 30 years, in my opinion.
 
shit i didnt know that. i thought test raises shbg!

googled the ingredients. Inactive ingredients: DL-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (Vitamin E), phytosterol esters, polyoxyl 40 hydrogenated castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate. The ingredients of the gelatin capsule shells are gelatin, glycerin, purified water, sorbitol, and titanium dioxide.

lots to think about. is andriol very different from the modern versions? because people were taking that 50 years ago. ill look into long term issues there.
 
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funghi2 said:
shit i didnt know that. i thought test raises shbg!

googled the ingredients. Inactive ingredients: DL-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (Vitamin E), phytosterol esters, polyoxyl 40 hydrogenated castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate. The ingredients of the gelatin capsule shells are gelatin, glycerin, purified water, sorbitol, and titanium dioxide.

lots to think about. is andriol very different from the modern versions? because people were taking that 50 years ago. ill look into long term issues there.
Click to expand...
If you have type two diabetes your SHBG will go up even while on TRT. My SHBG went from 11 pre- TRT to 24 on TRT.

Now that I’m off TRT it’s 33.
 
Generally speaking, there is a direct relationship between SHBG and metabolic health… particularly in the liver where SHBG is produced. Low SHBG is generally a consequence of poor metabolic health.

Testosterone can improve metabolic health for some so in those cases SHBG could rise slightly.

Generally, the metabolically healthy will see a drop in SHBG and with larger doses of T, an even more pronounced drop.
funghi2 said:
shit i didnt know that. i thought test raises shbg!

googled the ingredients. Inactive ingredients: DL-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (Vitamin E), phytosterol esters, polyoxyl 40 hydrogenated castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate. The ingredients of the gelatin capsule shells are gelatin, glycerin, purified water, sorbitol, and titanium dioxide.

lots to think about. is andriol very different from the modern versions? because people were taking that 50 years ago. ill look into long term issues there.
Click to expand...
 
MegaTurd said:
Generally speaking, there is a direct relationship between SHBG and metabolic health… particularly in the liver where SHBG is produced. Low SHBG is generally a consequence of poor metabolic health.

Testosterone can improve metabolic health for some so in those cases SHBG could rise slightly.

Generally, the metabolically healthy will see a drop in SHBG and with larger doses of T, an even more pronounced drop.
Click to expand...
are we talking any T or TU? i did a few google searches and it does show TU lowering SHBG but i can say in my labs SHBG does rise when i was on other types of T. on natesto i went up to 43 from 30. im curious to see what kyzatrex does. Im getting labs shortly. what else do you guys test for besides the standard panels for people on trt?
 
funghi2 said:
are we talking any T or TU? i did a few google searches and it does show TU lowering SHBG but i can say in my labs SHBG does rise when i was on other types of T. on natesto i went up to 43 from 30. im curious to see what kyzatrex does. Im getting labs shortly. what else do you guys test for besides the standard panels for people on trt?
Click to expand...
We’re talking about anything in large quantities being somewhere in the body where you wouldn’t typically see large quantities of said substance: hundreds of milligrams of T or TU 2x/day in the lymphatics. It’s just a personal concern of mine. I have no evidence to support T or TU in the lymphatics being an issue.

I stand by my previous general statements regarding the relationships between SHBG/metabolic health and SHBG and large doses of T. That said, lots of factors can influence SHBG in addition to TRT: diet/fasting, better thyroid health or thyroid supplementation, etc.
 
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