Not Understanding ED/EOD Protocols

[GreenMachineX]

Hello all,
I’ve seen how some of you dose every day to every other day protocols, and I don’t understand where the calculation comes from. It looks like some people only use 10mg per day of test cyp, whereas others are using 30-40mg EOD. But, from what I understand, 10mg ED > 70mg once per week, correct? If so, how do I calculate for 40mg E3D if I wanted to switch to ED or EOD? EOD is more likely FWIW...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cataceous]

Generally speaking, if you inject a fixed amount of testosterone every week then your average serum testosterone is not going to change much even if you split up the dose in different ways. Technically speaking, the area under the response curves stays about the same. However, the response curves can look dramatically different, and can greatly influence the subjective results. Look at the extremes: If you inject 70 mg T cypionate once a week then after each dose serum testosterone rises rapidly to a high level, then falls pretty steadily over the course of the week until a trough is reached at the next injection. If instead you inject 10 mg every day then serum testosterone stays fairly constant throughout the week; there may be small rises after each injection, but the variation in serum levels is at most a few percent.

The perception that 10 mg daily > 70 mg weekly comes from taking trough serum testosterone measurements. With daily injections there are essentially no troughs, so you're simply measuring the average level. Suppose that's 1,000 ng/dL. With weekly injections the trough measurement is much lower, say 500 ng/dL in this example. What most don't see is that high peak in the first day after a weekly injection. In this example it could be as much as 1,500 ng/dL. Only midway through the week does serum testosterone get down to the average level of 1,000 ng/dL.

Setting this aside, the basic calculation for matching total dose is most easily done by figuring the dose per day and then multiplying by the number of days in the new proposed cycle. In your case, 40 mg E3D is 40/3 mg per day, or about 13.3 mg. This would be the amount to take on a daily cycle. An EOD cycle has two days, so multiply the daily amount by two, which yields about 26.7 mg. Just keep in mind that on the EOD cycle the trough serum testosterone will be higher than on the E3D cycle. If you want to maintain the same trough then a dose reduction is needed. If you have some pretty consistent total testosterone trough measurements on ED3 then we could come up with a crude estimate of the reduction in dose necessary to maintain the same trough measurements.

 

[S1W]

If you have some pretty consistent total testosterone trough measurements on ED3 then we could come up with a crude estimate of the reduction in dose necessary to maintain the same trough measurements.

I always appreciate your thoughts, so if you wouldn't mind:

My TT on 60mg E3.5D usually comes in around 900 trough. Could you explain what dose you would recommend for a daily protocol and how you arrived at that?

 

[GreenMachineX]

Generally speaking, if you inject a fixed amount of testosterone every week then your average serum testosterone is not going to change much even if you split up the dose in different ways. Technically speaking, the area under the response curves stays about the same. However, the response curves can look dramatically different, and can greatly influence the subjective results. Look at the extremes: If you inject 70 mg T cypionate once a week then after each dose serum testosterone rises rapidly to a high level, then falls pretty steadily over the course of the week until a trough is reached at the next injection. If instead you inject 10 mg every day then serum testosterone stays fairly constant throughout the week; there may be small rises after each injection, but the variation in serum levels is at most a few percent.

The perception that 10 mg daily > 70 mg weekly comes from taking trough serum testosterone measurements. With daily injections there are essentially no troughs, so you're simply measuring the average level. Suppose that's 1,000 ng/dL. With weekly injections the trough measurement is much lower, say 500 ng/dL in this example. What most don't see is that high peak in the first day after a weekly injection. In this example it could be as much as 1,500 ng/dL. Only midway through the week does serum testosterone get down to the average level of 1,000 ng/dL.

Setting this aside, the basic calculation for matching total dose is most easily done by figuring the dose per day and then multiplying by the number of days in the new proposed cycle. In your case, 40 mg E3D is 40/3 mg per day, or about 13.3 mg. This would be the amount to take on a daily cycle. An EOD cycle has two days, so multiply the daily amount by two, which yields about 26.7 mg. Just keep in mind that on the EOD cycle the trough serum testosterone will be higher than on the E3D cycle. If you want to maintain the same trough then a dose reduction is needed. If you have some pretty consistent total testosterone trough measurements on ED3 then we could come up with a crude estimate of the reduction in dose necessary to maintain the same trough measurements.

Stellar explanation. Thank you! Maybe I’ll try 20mg EOD next and bump up a little if needed.

 

[Cataceous]

I always appreciate your thoughts, so if you wouldn't mind:

My TT on 60mg E3.5D usually comes in around 900 trough. Could you explain what dose you would recommend for a daily protocol and how you arrived at that?

If your absorption rate is typical then peak testosterone on this schedule could be about 50% higher than the trough, or around 1,300 ng/dL. This would put your average testosterone roughly at 1,100 ng/dL. In theory this is what you'd measure if you switch to daily injections of 120/7 ~= 17 mg. If you prefer to keep the measured total testosterone level at the previous trough of 900 ng/dL, then assuming unchanging SHBG, total testosterone should be roughly proportional to dose, so you'd scale the dose down to 900/1100 * 17 = 14 mg daily.

 

[GreenMachineX]

@Cataceous
One more follow up to the last question. I know consistently 50mg every 3.5 days was keeping me at 500 trough (peak measured >900 if that matters). With your calculation, to keep my trough at 500 with smaller peaks, would I want to use 20mg EOD?

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous
One more follow up to the last question. I know consistently 50mg every 3.5 days was keeping me at 500 trough (peak measured >900 if that matters). With your calculation, to keep my trough at 500 with smaller peaks, would I want to use 20mg EOD?

Interesting—that seems like a high peak for a 500 ng/dL trough on E3.5D injections. Let's just say it is 900 ng/dL and your average level is 700 ng/dL. The effects of EOD dosing are harder to predict. For me it seems to result in little variation. But you may be a faster absorber and still see pronounced peaks and troughs in serum testosterone. For the case with little variation you'd simply be scaling the average level of 700 ng/dL down to 500 ng/dL. The EOD dose is 100 / 3.5 *5 / 7 mg = 20 mg, just as you predicted. If you have some variability with EOD dosing then a little higher dose would be necessary to maintain the 500 ng/dL trough. On the other hand, if your current peaks are much over 900 ng/dL then a lower dose could be appropriate. In any case, these are pretty crude estimates, so a need for later tuning is to be expected.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Interesting—that seems like a high peak for a 500 ng/dL trough on E3.5D injections. Let's just say it is 900 ng/dL and your average level is 700 ng/dL. The effects of EOD dosing are harder to predict. For me it seems to result in little variation. But you may be a faster absorber and still see pronounced peaks and troughs in serum testosterone. For the case with little variation you'd simply be scaling the average level of 700 ng/dL down to 500 ng/dL. The EOD dose is 100 / 3.5 *5 / 7 mg = 20 mg, just as you predicted. If you have some variability with EOD dosing then a little higher dose would be necessary to maintain the 500 ng/dL trough. On the other hand, if your current peaks are much over 900 ng/dL then a lower dose could be appropriate. In any case, these are pretty crude estimates, so a need for later tuning is to be expected.

Well, I’ve only tested peak one time and it was that high. I’ve tested trough more than 5 times over the past couple years to know what that will be. Yesterday was my first EOD dose of (probably) 18mg. It was supposed to be 20mg, but wasted a little getting the last air bubble out. Obviously, straight guessing on how much was wasted but it was just less than that .1mL line.
Anyway, I know this is a little unpredictable, but should I expect to feel worse during the next 6 weeks while I get used to the dose adjustment? I imagine, if so, it would only be mild. Do I need to wait the full 6 weeks to test trough with this EOD protocol? Getting bloodwork where I live now is a pain but I actually have a perfect free day 2-3 weeks in I could get test and FT drawn. Would there be any value in that (even if only a little)?

 

[Cataceous]

Well, I’ve only tested peak one time and it was that high. I’ve tested trough more than 5 times over the past couple years to know what that will be. Yesterday was my first EOD dose of (probably) 18mg. It was supposed to be 20mg, but wasted a little getting the last air bubble out. Obviously, straight guessing on how much was wasted but it was just less than that .1mL line.
Anyway, I know this is a little unpredictable, but should I expect to feel worse during the next 6 weeks while I get used to the dose adjustment? I imagine, if so, it would only be mild. Do I need to wait the full 6 weeks to test trough with this EOD protocol? Getting bloodwork where I live now is a pain but I actually have a perfect free day 2-3 weeks in I could get test and FT drawn. Would there be any value in that (even if only a little)?

I'd expect a shorter stabilization period is needed with a transition like this, so you might get some useful information with testing at 2-3 weeks, even though 4 would be preferred. It will be useful to ensure you're not running lower than expected. I'd say it's common to have difficulties with a dose reduction; I know I've had transient problems with sexual function in these circumstances. It can feel like a return to hypogonadism, which prevents many from following through. It helps to expect it, and to know that a fair evaluation of a new protocol requires months, which takes patience.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I'd expect a shorter stabilization period is needed with a transition like this, so you might get some useful information with testing at 2-3 weeks, even though 4 would be preferred. It will be useful to ensure you're not running lower than expected. I'd say it's common to have difficulties with a dose reduction; I know I've had transient problems with sexual function in these circumstances. It can feel like a return to hypogonadism, which prevents many from following through. It helps to expect it, and to know that a fair evaluation of a new protocol requires months, which takes patience.

Gotcha. Makes sense. I am really hopeful that this new protocol will help me start sleeping well, reduce my blood pressure, etc so I’ll be sticking it out. Well, I say that, I might get sick of sticking every other day too.

 

[madman]

Well, I’ve only tested peak one time and it was that high. I’ve tested trough more than 5 times over the past couple years to know what that will be. Yesterday was my first EOD dose of (probably) 18mg. It was supposed to be 20mg, but wasted a little getting the last air bubble out. Obviously, straight guessing on how much was wasted but it was just less than that .1mL line.
Anyway, I know this is a little unpredictable, but should I expect to feel worse during the next 6 weeks while I get used to the dose adjustment? I imagine, if so, it would only be mild. Do I need to wait the full 6 weeks to test trough with this EOD protocol? Getting bloodwork where I live now is a pain but I actually have a perfect free day 2-3 weeks in I could get test and FT drawn. Would there be any value in that (even if only a little)?

Well, I’ve only tested peak one time and it was that high. I’ve tested trough more than 5 times over the past couple years to know what that will be. Yesterday was my first EOD dose of (probably) 18mg. It was supposed to be 20mg, but wasted a little getting the last air bubble out. Obviously, straight guessing on how much was wasted but it was just less than that .1mL line.

- this should not happen if you draw properly as you should always pull the plunger back slightly further than the amount you plan on injecting to compensate for any air bubble




Anyway, I know this is a little unpredictable, but should I expect to feel worse during the next 6 weeks while I get used to the dose adjustment? I imagine, if so, it would only be mild. Do I need to wait the full 6 weeks to test trough with this EOD protocol?

-in most cases, one will feel worse when lowering the dose and expect to encounter some ups/downs along the way

-no one can say for sure how much of an impact it will have overall but highly doubt it would be anything comparable to low-t unless the dose was drastically reduced

- wait the full 4 weeks before having blood work done to get an accurate picture of where your levels are at

 

[GreenMachineX]

Well, I’ve only tested peak one time and it was that high. I’ve tested trough more than 5 times over the past couple years to know what that will be. Yesterday was my first EOD dose of (probably) 18mg. It was supposed to be 20mg, but wasted a little getting the last air bubble out. Obviously, straight guessing on how much was wasted but it was just less than that .1mL line.

- this should not happen if you draw properly as you should always pull the plunger back slightly further than the amount you plan on injecting to compensate for any a

I know; I was just rushing to get ready. Simple mistake.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hello all,
I’ve seen how some of you dose every day to every other day protocols, and I don’t understand where the calculation comes from. It looks like some people only use 10mg per day of test cyp, whereas others are using 30-40mg EOD. But, from what I understand, 10mg ED > 70mg once per week, correct? If so, how do I calculate for 40mg E3D if I wanted to switch to ED or EOD? EOD is more likely FWIW...

Thanks in advance.

It only took me a year to get to ED protocol lol.