Thinking of stopping my AI. Thoughts.

[Cips1975]

Hi gang. Been on test cyp since Feb 2018. I am scripted at 200mg/week doing 100mg IM on Monday and Thursdays. Even though 200 is my script, I am actually doing a bit less prob 150-175mg/week. I was having some back acne flair ups and playing around with lower dose. Anyway, I am also on 0.5mg if anastrozole which I take on tues and fri and Sunday’s. I also take 500iu of HcG twice per week on the same day of my test shots. OK! Got that out of the way. Anyway I was thinking of going off AI completely based off my readings and observations that AI is not necessary for TRT at these dosages. What would you do? I will be honest that all my labs and numbers are all within ranges taking everything I’m on right now and I do feel totally fine. Do I just stay course ? Or deep six the AI and see if anything happens

 

[CoastWatcher]

Your labs look good and you “feel totally fine.” Why change anything? Enjoy the benefits of a successful protocol. If, down the road, a change is indicated you can adjust at that point.

I have never taken an AI and, five years in, have had terrific success. If, however, I was taking a reasonably steep dose of testosterone such as you are, and found things dialed in with an AI, as you have, I would be pleased.

 

[at15]

drop it asap. you have been on since feb 2018. that is nothing. you dont want to go down this road. you have plenty of room to go down on dose if you wanted to. 75-100mg per week can keep you in physiological ranges > 400 ng/dl.

 

[Vince Carter]

AI is not necessary for TRT at these dosages.

Dosing has almost nothing to do with it. There are guys here that require an AI on just 16mg per day, and then guys that have no AI on 200mg once per week. The dose as a basis such as you used it there in the quote is completely wrong.

 

[Cips1975]

Thanks for the replies guys. I’ll continue to observe this thread and go from there. I see both sides. What I am on right now is working and no issues so why change at this point a year in. Good point. Then I see the other points as well that some folks will just need an AI. I am still kinda leaning on stopping the AI until my next labs in like a month or so. Only way to tell other than symptoms. Again, thanks for the replies.

 

[SkyWarn]

Hi gang. Been on test cyp since Feb 2018. I am scripted at 200mg/week doing 100mg IM on Monday and Thursdays. Even though 200 is my script, I am actually doing a bit less prob 150-175mg/week. I was having some back acne flair ups and playing around with lower dose. Anyway, I am also on 0.5mg if anastrozole which I take on tues and fri and Sunday’s. I also take 500iu of HcG twice per week on the same day of my test shots. OK! Got that out of the way. Anyway I was thinking of going off AI completely based off my readings and observations that AI is not necessary for TRT at these dosages. What would you do? I will be honest that all my labs and numbers are all within ranges taking everything I’m on right now and I do feel totally fine. Do I just stay course ? Or deep six the AI and see if anything happens

Can you post your current labs?

 

[akizal]

Stop the AI immediately, throw it in the garbage, if you are not comfortable with 200 mg a week, you need to lower the dosage, you are essentially taking a poison, and completely wreaking havoc on your body for no reason at all.

 

[fifty]

Stop the AI immediately, throw it in the garbage, if you are not comfortable with 200 mg a week, you need to lower the dosage, you are essentially taking a poison, and completely wreaking havoc on your body for no reason at all.

Really?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Stop the AI immediately, throw it in the garbage, if you are not comfortable with 200 mg a week, you need to lower the dosage, you are essentially taking a poison, and completely wreaking havoc on your body for no reason at all.

A bit over the top, I would say.

Never having taken an AI, I’m not emotionally invested in this argument. I am of the opinion, however, that anastrozole is a drug that some men do find it necessary to incorporate in their regimen to achieve success. Probably prescribed too often, may be sidestepped via dosage manipulation in many instances, but required on some occasions.

 

[Cips1975]

Can you post your current labs?

Total Test: 831
Free Test: 144.6
Estradiol: 19
All CBCs normal
All Lipids normal
Glucose was high at 101
T3/4/TSH all normal
Cortisol normal

 

[tmaxey1]

Total Test: 831
Free Test: 144.6
Estradiol: 19
All CBCs normal
All Lipids normal
Glucose was high at 101
T3/4/TSH all normal
Cortisol normal

Labs look good.
You said you feel good.
What are you hoping to accomplish?
What makes you think doubling your estrogen will improve anything?

 

[Cips1975]

I guess the question is will my E levels double like you say, Or will they stay normal. Only way to find out is to back off and get labs done and monitor any changes. Again, just thinking this through. Thanks for the comment

 

[CoastWatcher]

I guess the question is will my E levels double like you say, Or will they stay normal. Only way to find out is to back off and get labs done and monitor any changes. Again, just thinking this through. Thanks for the comment

I think I umderstand your curiosity. I have never used an AI and reduced my elevated e2 was lowered with protocol manipulation. The fewer elements in the protocol the better. But...the goal is to feel good. And you do.

 

[Tgrappler]

Please stop the AI and see what happens.

You're in a good range right now... Your T:E2 ratio is about 2%, which is solid.

Here's the thing, if you see that your E2 is climbing you can always take the AI to deal with it.
But don't take it based on any number. Take it only if you feel significantly worse. (Which I sincerely doubt is going to happen).

On the flip side, if you crash or lower E2 too much you are pretty much guaranteed a few weeks of hell. Is it worth it?
And consider that you are taking an anticancer medication. Really, really strong pharmaceutical.

To me the analogy is like doing a few shots of vodka here and there. I'm pretty sure you're going to feel "good", but you must consider the long term effects it's having on your body and mind.
A powerful AI can be quite dangerous in the same regard. Long term usage is not necessary and not advisable.

See how you feel without it. And let your body adjust if you do stop it. Don't jump back on a higher dose if you're not feeling perfect.
Trust me, high E2 is a joke compared to crashed E2. And high E2 can be fixed very easily with AI.
Climbing out of the low/crashed E2 hellhole is a journey you don't want to go on.

 

[tmaxey1]

Please stop the AI and see what happens.

You're in a good range right now... Your T:E2 ratio is about 2%, which is solid.

Here's the thing, if you see that your E2 is climbing you can always take the AI to deal with it.
But don't take it based on any number. Take it only if you feel significantly worse. (Which I sincerely doubt is going to happen).

On the flip side, if you crash or lower E2 too much you are pretty much guaranteed a few weeks of hell. Is it worth it?
And consider that you are taking an anticancer medication. Really, really strong pharmaceutical.

To me the analogy is like doing a few shots of vodka here and there. I'm pretty sure you're going to feel "good", but you must consider the long term effects it's having on your body and mind.
A powerful AI can be quite dangerous in the same regard. Long term usage is not necessary and not advisable.

See how you feel without it. And let your body adjust if you do stop it. Don't jump back on a higher dose if you're not feeling perfect.
Trust me, high E2 is a joke compared to crashed E2. And high E2 can be fixed very easily with AI.
Climbing out of the low/crashed E2 hellhole is a journey you don't want to go on.

He is already taking an AI so where is this fear of “crashed” E2 coming from? His E2 isn’t crashed so why would it suddenly become so low that he needs weeks to recover. You tell him he is in a good T to E2 range now. This is because he is taking an AI already. His range won’t remain the same without his AI.

Alcohol is toxic to the body. Where is the proof that an AI is toxic to the body? What long term effects are happening to his body with his AI he is taking?

Your post isn’t based on any facts. You are trying to use scare tactics but don’t have any facts to back us this fear.
He is using an AI and his E2 isnt crashed. He feels good so without an ounce of proof that his AI is doing harm to his body why stop taking it? Let’s speak in facts and not in Jay Campbell scare tactics here.

 

[tmaxey1]

I guess the question is will my E levels double like you say, Or will they stay normal. Only way to find out is to back off and get labs done and monitor any changes. Again, just thinking this through. Thanks for the comment

You are taking 1.5mg per week of AI. Your E2 is 20 with this dosage. Most likely your E2 will be in the 40-60 range if you stop completely.(an obvious guess but it will no doubt go up)Now to be fair you may not be sensitive to high estrogen levels. Women have non Menstruation estrogen levels from 30-120. You could feel fine matching your wife’s estrogen levels for all we know. (Joking).

It sounds like you have your mind made up. Please come back in 8 weeks and let us know how you feel. Everyone is different and it’s always interesting to see how people react.

 

[Tgrappler]

He is already taking an AI so where is this fear of “crashed” E2 coming from? His E2 isn’t crashed so why would it suddenly become so low that he needs weeks to recover.

Alcohol is toxic to the body. Where is the proof that an AI is toxic to the body? What long term effects are happening to his body with his AI he is taking?

Your post isn’t based on any facts. You are trying to use scare tactics but don’t have any facts to back us this fear.
He is using an AI and his E2 isnt crashed. He feels good so without an ounce of proof that his AI is doing harm to his body why stop taking it? Let’s speak in facts and not in Jay Campbell scare tactics here.

First, let's consider the half-life of Anastrazole. It's about 4-5 days. Which means that after 5 days only 50% of the substance is cleared from your body. He's taking 0.5mg on Friday. By Sunday he's stacking another 0.5mg on top of whatever amount hasn't been eliminated yet. So roughly speaking by Monday there's 0.75mg of Anastrazole in his system (this is not an accurate number, but I hope you get the idea). If you don't allow the medication to clear your system completely, the potential of building up unhealthy levels is quite obvious.

Alcohol was an analogy. Not 1:1 comparison. The logic that he's "taking it now, and feels good" doesn't make any sense to me.
You can drink excessively for years before suffering serious health consequences.
Prolonged use of AI is also dangerous. Although most studies were done on cancer patients, it should be clear that such a strong substance can indeed be toxic.

"Toxicity was reported by 42% of patients, and AI therapy was stopped due to toxicity in 19%. The toxicities reported were similar to those reported elsewhere, except that fewer hot flashes were reported. Osteoporosis was found in a higher proportion of patients on an aromatase inhibitor than has been reported in the literature, but 17% of patients had documented bone loss prior to therapy."

Emerging Data on Side Effects of Aromatase Inhibitors : Oncology Times

If you need more "proof" google Anastrazole toxicity.

Then there's also common sense. You cannot take a powerful pharmaceutical and think that it's only lowering E2, nothing works in isolation. It's like dropping a bomb and expecting it to only kill the bad guys. That's just not how it works.
Why do you think hundreds if not thousands of patients report problems from low dose AI usage? Typically it doesn't happen right away, but please don't be naive to think that an adverse effect cannot happen because it hasn't happened yet.

 

[tmaxey1]

First, let's consider the half-life of Anastrazole. It's about 4-5 days. Which means that after 5 days only 50% of the substance is cleared from your body. He's taking 0.5mg on Friday. By Sunday he's stacking another 0.5mg on top of whatever amount hasn't been eliminated yet. So roughly speaking by Monday there's 0.75mg of Anastrazole in his system (this is not an accurate number, but I hope you get the idea). If you don't allow the medication to clear your system completely, the potential of building up unhealthy levels is quite obvious.

Alcohol was an analogy. Not 1:1 comparison. The logic that he's "taking it now, and feels good" doesn't make any sense to me.
You can drink excessively for years before suffering serious health consequences.
Prolonged use of AI is also dangerous. Although most studies were done on cancer patients, it should be clear that such a strong substance can indeed be toxic.

"Toxicity was reported by 42% of patients, and AI therapy was stopped due to toxicity in 19%. The toxicities reported were similar to those reported elsewhere, except that fewer hot flashes were reported. Osteoporosis was found in a higher proportion of patients on an aromatase inhibitor than has been reported in the literature, but 17% of patients had documented bone loss prior to therapy."

Emerging Data on Side Effects of Aromatase Inhibitors : Oncology Times

If you need more "proof" google Anastrazole toxicity.

Then there's also common sense. You cannot take a powerful pharmaceutical and think that it's only lowering E2, nothing works in isolation. It's like dropping a bomb and expecting it to only kill the bad guys. That's just not how it works.
Why do you think hundreds if not thousands of patients report problems from low dose AI usage? Typically it doesn't happen right away, but please don't be naive to think that an adverse effect cannot happen because it hasn't happened yet.

Who were the patients and what were the dosages they were taking?
Were they also taking testosterone which converts to estrogen or were these just people trying to totally block estrogen in their bodies? This proves absolutely nothing about AI's in the dosages men take while taking testosterone. Nothing.

This is the equivalent to claiming water to be toxic.
Google it.
Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill


There is zero evidence that AI's taken in dosages that control estrogen conversion in men is at all toxic. None.

The bomb analogy was as ineffective as the alcohol analogy.

Now lets look at risk associated with elevated E2 in men.


Double the Stroke Risk
Stroke is the third leading cause of death and the leading cause of age-related disability. Abnormal blood clotting in the cerebral blood vessels is the most common cause of stroke. Excess estrogen promotes abnormal blood clots.1

In a study published just last year, blood levels of estradiol (a potent estrogen) were measured in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age. Adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made. During the course of follow-up, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower.2

This study revealed that estradiol blood levels greater than 34.1 pg/mL resulted in this more than doubling of stroke incidence. Life Extension long ago warned men to keep their estradiol levels below 30 pg/mL, and this recent stroke study clearly validates our prior recommendation.

In a study published two years ago, blood levels of estradiol were measured in 313 men whose average age was 58. Carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other risk factors, men with higher levels of estradiol suffered a worsening thickening of their carotid artery wall. This led the researchers to conclude, “circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.”3

Dangers of Excess Estrogen in the Aging Male - page 1 | Life Extension

 

[Tgrappler]

Who were the patients and what were the dosages they were taking?
Were they also taking testosterone which converts to estrogen or were these just people trying to totally block estrogen in their bodies? This proves absolutely nothing about AI's in the dosages men take while taking testosterone. Nothing.

This is the equivalent to claiming water to be toxic.
Google it.
Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill


There is zero evidence that AI's taken in dosages that control estrogen conversion in men is at all toxic. None.

The bomb analogy was as ineffective as the alcohol analogy.

Now lets look at risk associated with elevated E2 in men.


Double the Stroke Risk
Stroke is the third leading cause of death and the leading cause of age-related disability. Abnormal blood clotting in the cerebral blood vessels is the most common cause of stroke. Excess estrogen promotes abnormal blood clots.1

In a study published just last year, blood levels of estradiol (a potent estrogen) were measured in a group of 2,197 men aged 71 to 93 years of age. Adjustment for age, hypertension, diabetes, adiposity, cholesterol, atrial fibrillation, and other characteristics were made. During the course of follow-up, men with the highest blood levels of estradiol had a 2.2-fold greater risk of stroke compared with those whose estradiol levels were lower.2

This study revealed that estradiol blood levels greater than 34.1 pg/mL resulted in this more than doubling of stroke incidence. Life Extension long ago warned men to keep their estradiol levels below 30 pg/mL, and this recent stroke study clearly validates our prior recommendation.

In a study published two years ago, blood levels of estradiol were measured in 313 men whose average age was 58. Carotid artery intima-media thickness was measured at baseline and then three years later. After adjusting for other risk factors, men with higher levels of estradiol suffered a worsening thickening of their carotid artery wall. This led the researchers to conclude, “circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.”3

Dangers of Excess Estrogen in the Aging Male - page 1 | Life Extension

Sorry, but I am not willing to engage in this pointless argument. Obviously you are not willing to have a civil conversation, if you are comparing water toxicity to that of an anticancer medication.

OP's E2 levels are completely within range, perhaps even a bit on the lower side. The study you've quoted doesn't apply here.

If you want to post some scientific evidence that AI is necessary for men with *completely normal* E2 levels, please go ahead.

The only thing I will reiterate is that it's not just about E2 levels. The substance itself has plenty of side effects.

 

[tmaxey1]

Sorry, but I am not willing to engage in this pointless argument. Obviously you are not willing to have a civil conversation, if you are comparing water toxicity to that of an anticancer medication.

OP's E2 levels are completely within range, perhaps even a bit on the lower side. The study you've quoted doesn't apply here.

If you want to post some scientific evidence that AI is necessary for men with *completely normal* E2 levels, please go ahead.

The only thing I will reiterate is that it's not just about E2 levels. The substance itself has plenty of side effects.

The argument is pointless to you because you can't make one worth making.
You talk about his 'completely normal' E2. I agree his E2 is normal. Because he is taking 500mg AI 3 times per week. Do you seriously believe if he stops taking this AI that his E2 level will still be 20? You don't do you?

So having an E2 of 20 with this AI dose will obviously result in a significantly higher E2 level.
The study I posted speaks about the dangers of elevated estrogen in men. What you are proposing is for him to ignore the real dangers (stroke, prostate cancer, enlarged prostate ect) just so he can avoid the side effects of this AL. Yet you cannot show any side effects from the AI that are not actually just side effects of too low estrogen which he clearly does not have taking testosterone injections.

Whats so hard about this?
I can't tell yet if you dont understand this or if you are being willfully ignorant.