When does estrogen become a concern?

[Gman86]

There is a fair bit of speculation that this is the case. Moreover, with scrotal cream DHT can get very high, which also counteracts estradiol, both in creation and in receptor binding.

Interesting. In theory I see how it should counteract the creation. However, my labs just came back on the cream and total T was 1680, free T was much much higher than when total was 1600+ on injections, total E2 was as high as its ever been, 79 standard E2, and 88 sens E2, and free E2 was much higher than it was on injections.

So for me, the high DHT- 311 (16-79), didn’t seem to inhibit E2 creation at all. Definitely thinks it inhibits E2 on a receptor level tho.

 

[Gman86]

with daily shots and daily anaztrozole I did not


I was able to felt stable most of time, when I hit the sweet spot I lasted for about a couple weeks the most. My past mistake is that I kept the anaztrozole constant and once I felt good I stopped monitoring believing I finally found my “right” dosage. However I did not take into account that My SHBG fluctuate +\- 2 pts so once that happens I should adjust my E2 levels accordingly and therefore the Anaztrozole dose.

I had planned to give a try with Defy so I am now following Dr Saya instructions no matter what but if after 1 year I dont improve I will shift to the above. In 5 years is the only way I had been stable and felt good. With time and practice I gave gained much more control of the roller coaster thing.

If you havent tried Defy with Dr Saya, I highly recommend it as well as many on this forum. I wasted 5 years with dozens of doctors and clinics and the protocol I got from Dr Saya I instantly git back my energy, however libido not yet since that is the thoughest one for me.

Do you mind if I ask what your current protocol with Defy is?

 

[Gman86]

For anyone not able to get dialed in on TRT, I think there might be something to this whole cream thing that might help you guys out. Especially guys that have issues with E2 getting too high.

The two main reasons I think the creams can help, is due to the increased DHT, and the increased free T. My labs just came back, and my free T is way higher on the cream than on injections, with similar total T levels. E2 is about the same as on injections, maybe slightly higher by a few points. So basically, on the cream my T to E ratio is much better. Also, the high DHT, opposes high E2 symptoms. So not only will the higher T to E ratio help with E2 symptoms, but the DHT opposing E2 will also help with E2, consequently allowing guys to avoid the ai rollercoaster, and also avoid having to micro manage their protocol. I also felt very stable in the cream. More so than while on injections, from what I remember.

 

[Diablo666]

For anyone not able to get dialed in on TRT, I think there might be something to this whole cream thing that might help you guys out. Especially guys that have issues with E2 getting too high.

The two main reasons I think the creams can help, is due to the increased DHT, and the increased free T. My labs just came back, and my free T is way higher on the cream than on injections, with similar total T levels. E2 is about the same as on injections, maybe slightly higher by a few points. So basically, on the cream my T to E ratio is much better. Also, the high DHT, opposes high E2 symptoms. So not only will the higher T to E ratio help with E2 symptoms, but the DHT opposing E2 will also help with E2, consequently allowing guys to avoid the ai rollercoaster, and also avoid having to micro manage their protocol. I also felt very stable in the cream. More so than while on injections, from what I remember.

do you use the cream only and not injections or a mix of both? if you dont mind what is your SHBG aprox?

 

[Diablo666]

Do you mind if I ask what your current protocol with Defy is?

Sure, basically 3x week test cyp 40mg each (so 120mg week). And 0.125 anaztrozole also 3x week. I am also on synthroid 125mcg and T3 10mcg daily. On that I think I probably need to reduce the synthroid a bit because my RT3 is super high. I heard many guys that eventually ditch the anaztrozole, so that is my goal, I was not a gym person and had a lot of belly fat but not obese. I am trying to go to the gym and run everyday to lose weight, body fat and gain some muscle, I believe that should help me to eliminate the anaztrozole altogether.

This is my starting protocol obviously it will need adjustments over time. Dr also suggested the cream if I did not do good on on injections alone.

I think the cream has beenn gaining a lot of popularity over the past few years. I have not tried it yet but I am eager to give it a try very soon.

 

[Gman86]

do you use the cream only and not injections or a mix of both? if you dont mind what is your SHBG aprox?

Ive been using the cream only. Switching this week back to injections tho, only because I’m having my first kid in a couple weeks and don’t want to risk transference.

I’m so mad, I had labs done last Saturday, and they ran the wrong testosterone panel, which didn’t include SHBG. Just got a requisition for SHBG today, and am going to go Monday morning to get it done. Extremely curious to find out if my free T sky rocketed because my SHBG went down a bunch, or if it’s binding less or something.

While on injections my SHBG is usually low 40’s

 

[Gman86]

Sure, basically 3x week test cyp 40mg each (so 120mg week). And 0.125 anaztrozole also 3x week. I am also on synthroid 125mcg and T3 10mcg daily. On that I think I probably need to reduce the synthroid a bit because my RT3 is super high. I heard many guys that eventually ditch the anaztrozole, so that is my goal, I was not a gym person and had a lot of belly fat but not obese. I am trying to go to the gym and run everyday to lose weight, body fat and gain some muscle, I believe that should help me to eliminate the anaztrozole altogether.

This is my starting protocol obviously it will need adjustments over time. Dr also suggested the cream if I did not do good on on injections alone.

I think the cream has beenn gaining a lot of popularity over the past few years. I have not tried it yet but I am eager to give it a try very soon.

Thanks for the reply. Is this the first time you have added thyroid meds to your protocol?

No that I’ve tried the cream, it does seem like it could be a nice tool/ add on to a lot of guys protocols. Seems like it could bump up DHT a bit, if they need the boost, and also DHT opposes E2, so it could allow them to drop the ai from their protocol, and thirdly it could possibly boost their free T a bit without raising total T and E2 drastically.

Im still a little hesitant to have DHT so high in cream monotherapy. It seems pretty benign, but we just don’t have any research to confirm that it’s safe to have those levels long term. Plus, I’m a vain motherfckr, and am worried about hair thinning with all that DHT lol

 

[Cataceous]

Interesting. In theory I see how it should counteract the creation. However, my labs just came back on the cream and total T was 1680, free T was much much higher than when total was 1600+ on injections, total E2 was as high as its ever been, 79 standard E2, and 88 sens E2, and free E2 was much higher than it was on injections.

So for me, the high DHT- 311 (16-79), didn’t seem to inhibit E2 creation at all. Definitely thinks it inhibits E2 on a receptor level tho.

You'd need Tru-T or one of the accurate tests to confirm the higher free T, but that's a reasonable result because DHT displaces some T from SHBG. Maybe from albumin too?

I did have my highest measured estradiol when I added a little scrotal testosterone cream to injections. I wonder if the apparent muted or nonexistent effect of DHT on estradiol creation in these circumstances is related to additional aromatization occurring directly in the cutaneous tissue. In any case, DHT is not described as a strong aromatase inhibitor, so the effect may just be small compared to everything else going on.

 

[Gman86]

You'd need Tru-T or one of the accurate tests to confirm the higher free T, but that's a reasonable result because DHT displaces some T from SHBG. Maybe from albumin too?

I did have my highest measured estradiol when I added a little scrotal testosterone cream to injections. I wonder if the apparent muted or nonexistent effect of DHT on estradiol creation in these circumstances is related to additional aromatization occurring directly in the cutaneous tissue. In any case, DHT is not described as a strong aromatase inhibitor, so the effect may just be small compared to everything else going on.

I didn’t realize that DHT displaces T from SHBG. So theoretically, can two people have a total T of 1000, a SHBG of 40, and one guy on scrotal cream have a higher free T due to his high DHT displacing more of the T from his SHBG?

If my SHBG comes back around the same as when I’m on injections, it will prove that all SHBG isn’t created equal, and it’s more than just a number. If it comes back considerably lower, maybe it is just a number and binds the exact same to T in all males. Will report back as soon as my SHBG lab comes in. Will get it drawn Monday morning.

 

[Charliebizz]

I didn’t realize that DHT displaces T from SHBG. So theoretically, can two people have a total T of 1000, a SHBG of 40, and one guy on scrotal cream have a higher free T due to his high DHT displacing more of the T from his SHBG?

If my SHBG comes back around the same as when I’m on injections, it will prove that all SHBG isn’t created equal, and it’s more than just a number. If it comes back considerably lower, maybe it is just a number and binds the exact same to T in all males. Will report back as soon as my SHBG lab comes in. Will get it drawn Monday morning.

how are you going to transfer scrotal cream to a baby?? I’d be more worried about transferring it to my wife

 

[madman]

You'd need Tru-T or one of the accurate tests to confirm the higher free T, but that's a reasonable result because DHT displaces some T from SHBG. Maybe from albumin too?

I did have my highest measured estradiol when I added a little scrotal testosterone cream to injections. I wonder if the apparent muted or nonexistent effect of DHT on estradiol creation in these circumstances is related to additional aromatization occurring directly in the cutaneous tissue. In any case, DHT is not described as a strong aromatase inhibitor, so the effect may just be small compared to everything else going on.

 

[Gman86]

how are you going to transfer scrotal cream to a baby?? I’d be more worried about transferring it to my wife

I do 2 clicks on my forearms in the pm. Transference was just one reason I’m switching back to injections. I also found it very inconvenient to have to apply in to my scrotum and let it dry/ absorb a bit before putting clothes on. Then having to worry about bringing the bottle with me to apply the pm dose. I just miss injections where u just inject in the am real quick, and don’t worry about anything for the rest of the day. And that’s injecting daily. Obv injecting EOD or E3D is even more convenient. But even injecting daily is much more convenient than the cream, imo. Lastly, I’m just not 100% sure I’m comfortable with such elevated DHT levels yet. It seems pretty safe and benign, but just would like to see some long term studies to feel more comfortable about having it so elevated for the long term.

 

[madman]

I didn’t realize that DHT displaces T from SHBG. So theoretically, can two people have a total T of 1000, a SHBG of 40, and one guy on scrotal cream have a higher free T due to his high DHT displacing more of the T from his SHBG?

If my SHBG comes back around the same as when I’m on injections, it will prove that all SHBG isn’t created equal, and it’s more than just a number. If it comes back considerably lower, maybe it is just a number and binds the exact same to T in all males. Will report back as soon as my SHBG lab comes in. Will get it drawn Monday morning.

If my SHBG comes back around the same as when I’m on injections, it will prove that all SHBG isn’t created equal, and it’s more than just a number.

First off it would prove nothing as you did not use an accurate testing method for FT.....Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration.

Secondly for s**t sake let's just say you did test your FT levels using the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis and your FT levels came back way higher on the scrotal cream protocol vs injections with having a similar TT level.....than even if your SHBG came back the same as when on injections it would in no way prove what you stated that....."it will prove that all SHBG isn't created equal, and it's more than just a number".....it would just show that very high DHT levels COULD affect T:SHBG binding.....resulting in higher FT levels.

Even than I would bet that if you had your FT tested using Equilibrium Dialysis when on the scrotal and injection protocols.....even with higher DHT levels on the scrotal protocol.....doubt your FT levels would be significantly different.



Again.....


Effects of Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Addition of estradiol 17β in concentrations ranging from 10 to 500 pg/mL had no significant effect on percent free testosterone. Similarly, free testosterone concentrations in men treated with graded doses of testosterone enanthate plus placebo whose DHT concentrations extended from physiologic to supraphysiologic range did not differ from those treated with testosterone enanthate plus dutasteride whose DHT concentrations were very low (Bhasin et al 2012), indicating that DHT over the range of concentrations relevant in male and female physiology has little effect on percent free testosterone.


Now in theory very high DHT concentrations could affect testosterone's binding to SHBG.

Your point is moot regarding you stating that your FT levels are way higher on the scrotal cream protocol vs injections with similar TT levels..... simply because again and again and again you mindlessly persist to use piss poor testing methods.....you would have needed to have your FT levels tested using the most accurate method.....gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) to truly know where your FT level sits.


If it comes back considerably lower, maybe it is just a number and binds the exact same to T in all males.

As I stated in the previous thread:


*The current algorithm and the experimental data reported here were generated using wild type SHBG which is present in nearly 98% of Caucasians. Genome wide association studies have revealed several SHBG polymorphisms, two of which have been reported to affect testosterone binding to SHBG (28).


So if anything regarding SHBG:T binding unless you fall into the 2% which may have an SHBG polymorphism.....and only 2 have been reported to affect T binding to SHBG or you are using mesterolone (Proviron) added to trt than it is highly unlikely that someone’s SHBG binding more or less to testosterone, even at the same level would happen.....hence FT level would not be different with the same TT/SHBG/Albumin level.....let alone to any significant degree.


Now in theory very high DHT concentrations could affect testosterone's binding to SHBG.

 

[Charliebizz]

I do 2 clicks on my forearms in the pm. Transference was just one reason I’m switching back to injections. I also found it very inconvenient to have to apply in to my scrotum and let it dry/ absorb a bit before putting clothes on. Then having to worry about bringing the bottle with me to apply the pm dose. I just miss injections where u just inject in the am real quick, and don’t worry about anything for the rest of the day. And that’s injecting daily. Obv injecting EOD or E3D is even more convenient. But even injecting daily is much more convenient than the cream, imo. Lastly, I’m just not 100% sure I’m comfortable with such elevated DHT levels yet. It seems pretty safe and benign, but just would like to see some long term studies to feel more comfortable about having it so elevated for the long term.

yeah I here that. When I was on androgel I was like no way I can go the rest of my life doing this every day. I was on daily sub q shots for a few months. Much more manageable. If trt worked for me I’d be fine doing that. But I agree and no way I could do 2x a day applications

 

[Gman86]

yeah I here that. When I was on androgel I was like no way I can go the rest of my life doing this every day. I was on daily sub q shots for a few months. Much more manageable. If trt worked for me I’d be fine doing that. But I agree and no way I could do 2x a day applications

Ya exactly. I mean, I did feel really good mood wise, so I could do it if I had to, but the convenience factor of it definitely needs to be discussed more, imo. Other than that, I really think it could be a possible solution for a lot of guys with E2 issues.

 

[bixt]

I am self medicating "TRT". I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well. I have also experimented similarly with subq (a waste of time for me) and shallow IM (excellent, man up and do it). Also with dosing E2d, e3.5d and weekly.

Im using pharma Cyp procured through a friendly pharmacy. Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic. Did put on water weight in the beginning even with the small dose, but that went away.

Not using an AI, and feel like a million bucks. HCG made no difference either way really so I dropped it.

Age 31, and my main motivation for continuing is the supreme confidence gained as well as the "aggression" which is really useful when negotiating in the business world. People simply dont mess with me anymore! Im pretty sure high E2 is a factor here. Ever tried to win a fight with a chick who has PMS? Well, with high E2 no one will mess with you either. Im dead serious here.

To all those not "dialed" in after so many years of posting, call it a "mild cycle" if you insist, but you have to trial 200 or 250mg\week IM EOD for just a month and revert back. You may just be amazed!

And yes, I jumped over 200mg after reading all the hype created by a certain you know who.

 

[Gman86]

I am self medicating "TRT". I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well. I have also experimented similarly with subq (a waste of time for me) and shallow IM (excellent, man up and do it). Also with dosing E2d, e3.5d and weekly.

Im using pharma Cyp procured through a friendly pharmacy. Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic. Did put on water weight in the beginning even with the small dose, but that went away.

Not using an AI, and feel like a million bucks. HCG made no difference either way really so I dropped it.

Age 31, and my main motivation for continuing is the supreme confidence gained as well as the "aggression" which is really useful when negotiating in the business world. People simply dont mess with me anymore! Im pretty sure high E2 is a factor here. Ever tried to win a fight with a chick who has PMS? Well, with high E2 no one will mess with you either. Im dead serious here.

To all those not "dialed" in after so many years of posting, call it a "mild cycle" if you insist, but you have to trial 200 or 250mg\week IM EOD for just a month and revert back. You may just be amazed!

And yes, I jumped over 200mg after reading all the hype created by a certain you know who.

Did you notice much difference going from 200mg to 250mg?

What’s your current dose, and how long have you been on your current dose?

 

[OneJoe]

I am self medicating "TRT". I simply started at 80mg as kept increasing every 6 weeks by 20mgor so until I reached 200-250mg which is where I feel well. I have also experimented similarly with subq (a waste of time for me) and shallow IM (excellent, man up and do it). Also with dosing E2d, e3.5d and weekly.

Im using pharma Cyp procured through a friendly pharmacy. Have never tested T, FT or E2, but I feel fantastic. Did put on water weight in the beginning even with the small dose, but that went away.

Not using an AI, and feel like a million bucks. HCG made no difference either way really so I dropped it.

Age 31, and my main motivation for continuing is the supreme confidence gained as well as the "aggression" which is really useful when negotiating in the business world. People simply dont mess with me anymore! Im pretty sure high E2 is a factor here. Ever tried to win a fight with a chick who has PMS? Well, with high E2 no one will mess with you either. Im dead serious here.

To all those not "dialed" in after so many years of posting, call it a "mild cycle" if you insist, but you have to trial 200 or 250mg\week IM EOD for just a month and revert back. You may just be amazed!

And yes, I jumped over 200mg after reading all the hype created by a certain you know who.

What does your bloodwork look like? Total T, e2, shbg, etc?

 

[bixt]

Did you notice much difference going from 200mg to 250mg?

What’s your current dose, and how long have you been on your current dose?

Currently 250mg eod shallow IM in the quads. Not too much of a difference for me between 250mg and 200mg and may revert back to that in a few months. Its been around 5 months now since 200+mg. The magic was almost immediate within a couple days of reaching 200mg, and has remained. The "honeymoon" phase I got which started and went with the lower doses (as it does in most) seems to be back permanently most days with the higher dose. I am mentioning all this as people don't seem to post success stories generally, and I attribute at least half of the success to E2. I also believe high E2 will only be helpful if T is high as well.

 

[bixt]

What does your bloodwork look like? Total T, e2, shbg, etc?

As mentioned, I have done absolutely ZERO bloodwork to date. I simply tried ever increasing doses till I felt great (probably after my free T went over the range).

I am NOT advocating anyone else here tries my novel approach, but everyone seems to do bloodwork and then still proceeds to adjust dosing, adding compounds, blaming E2, etc. So whats the point? Getting free T over the range (which was really my great grandfathers within range) seems to be key to feeling great. Increasing dosing is the only way to accomplish that.