Thinking about starting trt

[Anonymon]

I can very much agree on all that and your way of thinking.

Next week I start thyroid, NDT. I've been considering since I started TRT, but I wanted to settle my TRT regimen and also hoped thyroid may optimize naturally, but it didnt. Thyroid is not terrible, FT3 is midrange, but me and my doctor think I may benefit from raising it, I have 2-3 remaining symptoms very likely related to thyroid. Its worth the shot.

Why should we settle in life for anything less than the best we can be? Since Im on TRT I try to apply that of thinking on everything - career, relationships, etc. Quality of life has definetely improved.

Your response to thyroid will depend on your adrenals. I personally had my free T3 in the 3-3.2 range on my own, and adding in thyroid meds would always make things better at first, then worse. Working with physicians and the general wisdom, in my case it seems like adrenal issues, and I do have documentedly low cortisol and am the kind of guy that would. Going in for another test on that within the month.

It’s up to you and your doc, but I’d actually recommend smaller T3 doses you can divide up over NDT to start. It’s easier to dial in a dose that way because the half life is really short. I’m just now coming down on some NDT and T4, having done similar things with T3. Coming off T3 helped things in short order. Coming off NDT and T4 takes so much longer.

If you don’t have adrenal or conversion issues, NDT would be fine though. I think a lot of people long term will probably be on a T4/T3 mix though considering all the NDT recalls and shortages.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Your response to thyroid will depend on your adrenals. I personally had my free T3 in the 3-3.2 range on my own, and adding in thyroid meds would always make things better at first, then worse. Working with physicians and the general wisdom, in my case it seems like adrenal issues, and I do have documentedly low cortisol and am the kind of guy that would. Going in for another test on that within the month.

It’s up to you and your doc, but I’d actually recommend smaller T3 doses you can divide up over NDT to start. It’s easier to dial in a dose that way because the half life is really short. I’m just now coming down on some NDT and T4, having done similar things with T3. Coming off T3 helped things in short order. Coming off NDT and T4 takes so much longer.

If you don’t have adrenal or conversion issues, NDT would be fine though. I think a lot of people long term will probably be on a T4/T3 mix though considering all the NDT recalls and shortages.

There is one NDT here in Europe, from Estonia that my doc used with his European guys and according to him it is very high quality, although it is in the form of supplement, not pharmaceutical. He said it is similar to the US brand ancestral.

We expect there might be issues with the thyroid. He is very skeptical about the adrenal part and the adrrnal theory in general. According to him most guys who have issues with t3 have low progesterone for their needs. He is not sure whether mine is enough for me, but he said we will find out when I start the NDT.

From a range of 1.8-4.4 my FT3 sits around 2.7-3, now when Im on a diet more like 2.6. Also considering my calories and workouts I think I should be loosing fat eaaier.

 

[seppuku]

I bet the OP can't wait to start treatment now after wading through the last four pages!! (sarcasm). I'm not on trt, maybe should be - but from what i've read over the last ten years following this and other forums dedicated to trt, using the lowest effective dose always works out best for people. That may end up being 120, 150mg, whatever - but edging up from a low dose makes more sense that starting off on a higher one. Plus, the higher you go, the more likely you'll end up with problems like elevated hct / e2 etc. Can't be much fun having to dump blood on a regular basis just to make sure you don't....erm...die.
FWIW - my current total test hovers around the 300 mark. My libido's great - there's more to libido than sky high test levels.

 

[madman]

I’ve actually worked with hundreds of people over the years on HRT, though I never thought I’d need it because I looked and felt like someone on HRT anyway, most people assuming I was on it. At the end of the day we’re all figuring this out together and everybody’s different. It wasn’t that long ago that people only injected once a week or once every two weeks. You have to dial in your own protocol yourself and trust yourself, how you feel, and bloodwork above anyone on the internet. Although I would agree that if you’re just starting off things can be weird for people, it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

Your points on exogenous hormones for most other therapies not precisely corresponding to natural levels is also very true. Hell, even with how your average PCP type would handle TRT with giving you one shot every two weeks.

There’s also the matter of whether you want to consider this testosterone therapy or testosterone replacement therapy, the former being what most guys actually use and benefit from. Although you should do your best to get things in check naturally before doing anything like HRT, it probably is the case in many people that testosterone is being used as a therapy for something they may not be able to otherwise address naturally, or for simply having been dealt a bad genetic hand. I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly. This is an extreme example, but most professional athletes in sports with money on the line and actors known for their physiques are all on HRT. As are executives in Silicon Valley and otherwise. Go ahead and be satisfied with the hand you were dealt though, even if you don’t have so much as a pair of 2’s.

In all things, find a doctor you trust that has experience, do your research, ask everybody, and be the one in charge of your own health because no one knows what it’s like to be you but you. If you feel better and your blood work’s great at higher levels like 1300-1500 and you’re not having negative side effects, I can’t see a reason not to do that.

Drumroll, please!..... Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do EVERYONE'S that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

I’ve actually worked with hundreds of people over the years on HRT...

.....and still clueless about how exogenous esterified T works

No one and I mean no one is settled let alone has adapted to a protocol 3-4 weeks in when hormones are in FLUX let alone dialed-in at 6-8 weeks!

Even then once blood levels have stabilized 4-6 weeks (TC/TE) it will take a few months for the body to adapt to those new levels (setpoint) and this is the critical time period when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone CLAIM whether the protocol was truly a success or failure.

The first 6 weeks mean nothing when looking at the bigger picture!

Yes, this is whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

Even more critical when first starting TRT due to shut-down of the HPG AXIS!

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance.....12 weeks to truly claim success or failure.


You have to dial in your own protocol yourself and trust yourself, how you feel, and bloodwork above anyone on the internet.

True within reason.....first and foremost you need to understand how exogenous T works let alone have sense in your head before taking such an approach.


Although I would agree that if you’re just starting off things can be weird for people, it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

A bit weird to say the least.

Hormones are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks).

Again blood levels are rising week after week and it is common for one to experience ups/downs during the transition.

This is where many fail jumping the gun 6 weeks in and tweaking their protocols left and right because they do not feel well.

It's called LACKING the understanding of how exogenous esterified T works.

Top it all off that the HPG axis takes time to fully shut down (2-6 weeks) depending on the dose of T used (higher doses of T have been shown to result in quicker suppression).


Had to lay this out again.....it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

LMFAO!

Let me get this right here.

Most men suffering from hypogonadism go undiagnosed for years before looking into things let alone hopping on trt yet putting in the 12 weeks needed to truly gauge whether a protocol is a success or failure is considered indecisive nitpicking let alone in most cases?

GTFOH!

That is just downright embarrassing not to mention you already stated.....Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do EVERYONE'S that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

I knew right off the bat after you made such a statement that you were blowing smoke out your ASS!


There’s also the matter of whether you want to consider this testosterone therapy or testosterone replacement therapy, the former being what most guys actually use and benefit from.


TRT, TOT.....so-called OPTIMAL.....blurred by most!

*The goal of TRT is to replace physiological levels of testosterone through the use of exogenous testosterone in order to achieve a healthy TT/FT level which will result in the relief/improvement of low-t symptoms while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential side effects (cosmetic/overall health) while keeping blood markers HEALTHY LONG-TERM!

In many cases, we are all running what would be considered supra-physiological as many tend to feel better running higher/slightly higher-end trough TT/FT level let alone many are running what would be considered absurdly high trough TT/FT levels.

Comes down to the individual and where they feel FEEL BEST whether running a trough TT 600-1200 ng/dL with FT 20-30 ng/dL or TT 1500+ with FT 50-80 ng/dL.

Most men can easily achieve a healthy let alone very high trough FT (30-40+ ng/dL) with a trough TT 1000-1300 ng/dL and yes that is even men with highish/high SHBG!

Unfortunately, most are clueless as to where their FT level truly sits as they use/rely upon inaccurate assays.

Many are running levels much higher than they think.

Unfortunately, some of these same individuals are struggling.

Any man that truly NEEDS (far from common) let alone CHOOSES (very common) to run absurdly high trough FT 50-80 ng/dL would be running a trough TT 1500-2000 ng/dL.

If one truly feels their best at such levels, side-effect free, and overall blood markers are healthy then it is what it is.....to each his own.....do what you feel is best for you.


Although you should do your best to get things in check naturally before doing anything like HRT, it probably is the case in many people that testosterone is being used as a therapy for something they may not be able to otherwise address naturally, or for simply having been dealt a bad genetic hand. I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly. This is an extreme example, but most professional athletes in sports with money on the line and actors known for their physiques are all on HRT. As are executives in Silicon Valley and otherwise. Go ahead and be satisfied with the hand you were dealt though, even if you don’t have so much as a pair of 2’s

Hate to burst your bubble here but if you think that running what would be considered the so-called TOT/HRT (trough TT 1500-2000 ng/dL with trough FT 50-80 ng/dL) whatever the f**k you want to call it will result in everyone feeling their best, let alone packing on any significant amount of muscle you are out to lunch.

Top it all of that genetics (which many lacks) will have the final say!

Many men on TTh will and do feel great running much lower T levels.

Although having healthy T levels let alone following a proper diet/training protocol will result in improvements in body composition (muscle gain/fat loss) there is no comparison between TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL bullshit, and using/abusing AAS for the sole purpose of muscle/strength gains.

Huge difference when it comes to the muscle/strength gains one would achieve on TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL using your standard HRT protocols 100-200 mg T/week as oppose to using/abusing T (400-600 mg T/week) for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.

Many of these muscle-bound actors are using/abusing T in much higher doses (300-600 mg T/week) whether cycling/blasting and cruising.

Even many athletes in the off-season are using doses much higher than HRT, so-called OPTIMAL.

Many have a past history of steroid abuse (T/AAS)!


I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly.

Using/abusing T/AAS (400-600 mg/week) for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.....sure!

Unfortunately, this has absolutely nothing to do with TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL bullshit.

Using such doses whether cycling, blasting/cruising have absolutely nothing to do with maintaining long-term health!

Plain and simple.


In all things, find a doctor you trust that has experience, do your research, ask everybody, and be the one in charge of your own health because no one knows what it’s like to be you but you. If you feel better and your blood work’s great at higher levels like 1300-1500 and you’re not having negative side effects, I can’t see a reason not to do that.

The only sensible thing you stated as the SHIT STORM OF SMOKE CLEARS!

 

[Anonymon]

Drumroll, please!..... Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do EVERYONE'S that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

I’ve actually worked with hundreds of people over the years on HRT...

.....and still clueless about how exogenous esterified T works

No one and I mean no one is settled let alone has adapted to a protocol 3-4 weeks in when hormones are in FLUX let alone dialed-in at 6-8 weeks!

Even then once blood levels have stabilized 4-6 weeks (TC/TE) it will take a few months for the body to adapt to those new levels (setpoint) and this is the critical time period when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone CLAIM whether the protocol was truly a success or failure.

The first 6 weeks mean nothing when looking at the bigger picture!

Yes, this is whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

Even more critical when first starting TRT due to shut-down of the HPG AXIS!

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance.....12 weeks to truly claim success or failure.


You have to dial in your own protocol yourself and trust yourself, how you feel, and bloodwork above anyone on the internet.

True within reason.....first and foremost you need to understand how exogenous T works let alone have sense in your head before taking such an approach.


Although I would agree that if you’re just starting off things can be weird for people, it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

A bit weird to say the least.

Hormones are in FLUX during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks).

Again blood levels are rising week after week and it is common for one to experience ups/downs during the transition.

This is where many fail jumping the gun 6 weeks in and tweaking their protocols left and right because they do not feel well.

It's called LACKING the understanding of how exogenous esterified T works.

Top it all off that the HPG axis takes time to fully shut down (2-6 weeks) depending on the dose of T used (higher doses of T have been shown to result in quicker suppression).


Had to lay this out again.....it does appear to be indecisive nitpicking if you’re trying to give something 3 full months to evaluate in most cases.

LMFAO!

Let me get this right here.

Most men suffering from hypogonadism go undiagnosed for years before looking into things let alone hopping on trt yet putting in the 12 weeks needed to truly gauge whether a protocol is a success or failure is considered indecisive nitpicking let alone in most cases?

GTFOH!

That is just downright embarrassing not to mention you already stated.....Personally, MY protocols settle in after 3-4 weeks and feel the same thereafter. As do EVERYONE'S that I’ve PERSONALLY known doing HRT.

I knew right off the bat after you made such a statement that you were blowing smoke out your ASS!


There’s also the matter of whether you want to consider this testosterone therapy or testosterone replacement therapy, the former being what most guys actually use and benefit from.


TRT, TOT.....so-called OPTIMAL.....blurred by most!

*The goal of TRT is to replace physiological levels of testosterone through the use of exogenous testosterone in order to achieve a healthy TT/FT level which will result in the relief/improvement of low-t symptoms while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential side effects (cosmetic/overall health) while keeping blood markers HEALTHY LONG-TERM!

In many cases, we are all running what would be considered supra-physiological as many tend to feel better running higher/slightly higher-end trough TT/FT level let alone many are running what would be considered absurdly high trough TT/FT levels.

Comes down to the individual and where they feel FEEL BEST whether running a trough TT 600-1200 ng/dL with FT 20-30 ng/dL or TT 1500+ with FT 50-80 ng/dL.

Most men can easily achieve a healthy let alone very high trough FT (30-40+ ng/dL) with a trough TT 1000-1300 ng/dL and yes that is even men with highish/high SHBG!

Unfortunately, most are clueless as to where their FT level truly sits as they use/rely upon inaccurate assays.

Many are running levels much higher than they think.

Unfortunately, some of these same individuals are struggling.

Any man that truly NEEDS (far from common) let alone CHOOSES to run absurdly high trough FT 50-80 ng/dL would be running a trough TT 1500-2000 ng/dL.

If one truly feels their best at such levels, side-effect free, and overall blood markers are healthy then it is what it is.....to each his own.....do what you feel is best for you.


Although you should do your best to get things in check naturally before doing anything like HRT, it probably is the case in many people that testosterone is being used as a therapy for something they may not be able to otherwise address naturally, or for simply having been dealt a bad genetic hand. I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly. This is an extreme example, but most professional athletes in sports with money on the line and actors known for their physiques are all on HRT. As are executives in Silicon Valley and otherwise. Go ahead and be satisfied with the hand you were dealt though, even if you don’t have so much as a pair of 2’s

Hate to burst your bubble here but if you think that running what would be considered the so-called TOT/HRT (trough TT 1500-2000 ng/dL with trough FT 50-80 ng/dL) whatever the f**k you want to call it will result in everyone feeling their best, let alone packing on any significant amount of muscle you are out to lunch.

Top it all of that genetics (which many lacks) will have the final say!

Many men on TTh will and do feel great running much lower T levels.

Although having healthy T levels let alone following a proper diet/training protocol will result in improvements in body composition (muscle gain/fat loss) there is no comparison between TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL bullshit, and using/abusing AAS for the sole purpose of muscle/strength gains.

Huge difference when it comes to the muscle/strength gains one would achieve on TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL using your standard HRT protocols 100-200 mg T/week as oppose to using/abusing T (400-600 mg T/week) for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.

Many of these muscle-bound actors are using/abusing T in much higher doses (300-600 mg T/week) whether cycling/blasting and cruising.

Even many athletes in the off-season are using doses much higher than HRT, so-called OPTIMAL.

Many have a past history of steroid abuse (T/AAS)!


I can see no reason to fault anyone for using it in that manner if they do it responsibly.

Using/abusing T/AAS (400-600 mg/week) for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.....sure!

Unfortunately, this has absolutely nothing to do with TRT, HRT, so-called OPTIMAL bullshit.

Using such doses whether cycling, blasting/cruising have absolutely nothing to do with maintaining long-term health!

Plain and simple.


In all things, find a doctor you trust that has experience, do your research, ask everybody, and be the one in charge of your own health because no one knows what it’s like to be you but you. If you feel better and your blood work’s great at higher levels like 1300-1500 and you’re not having negative side effects, I can’t see a reason not to do that.

The only sensible thing you stated as the SHIT STORM OF SMOKE CLEARS!

I thoroughly appreciate your posts around here and attention to detail and trying to keep people in check, and will continue to do so hereafter. You do realize that you’re largely making a semantic argument though right? Things can be different when someone’s just starting TRT and I wholeheartedly agree things can get wonky there in some folks, but you repeating that hormones are in flux is somewhat of a nonargument. You’re making it seem like things are bouncing up and down the range all over the place across all major hormonal axises until an arbitrary end point of 3 months when the chaos stops and the smoke clears and a new person emerges. It’s pretty clear any flux that happens is going to taper off increasingly as time goes on. Technically your hormones and all else will be in flux for an entire year after making a change, but it would be silly to tell people to wait a year before adjusting anything.

For personal reference, most of my protocol’s had me at 1100-1300 TT at peak since I inject daily, and a free T of usually 15-25 again at peak, with my E2 being in the low to mid 50s without an AI. That’s been at 150-200ish test-e or c a week at various points with HCG at varying daily or 3x a week doses. Adding T3 made that all wonky but that’s where I was usually at. Currently I’m actually taking 140mgish a week.

I also achieved what most people would like to achieve with HRT before actually doing it though. I already looked better and was stronger than most people that pursue this tend to get, so for me I was mostly trying to figure out other issues and maintain my health in the aftermath of a bad reaction to a medication. If that was not the case I would be making different decisions.

I will continue to respectfully disagree with your claim that someone needs 3 months to evaluate their current protocol, and suggest that after about a month you pretty much know what to expect, and tell anyone that if they can maintain good blood work and health without side effects by using higher doses up to say 200mg a week and you objectively feel and perform better at that higher dose, then it would appear silly not to do that.

On another note, I’m assuming you mentioning ‘optimization’ and ‘TOT’ is a reference to the Jay Campbell type stuff. I would advise anyone to be highly skeptical of Jay Campbell. Although plenty of what he says is spot on and he has many guests, like Nelson as I recall, who are trustworthy, Jay himself does strike me as a huckster on many topics. His copper hair growth stuff, for example. So I would be wary of trusting him on all things, despite a lot of what he says probably being true.

 

[Tgk_143]

I bet the OP can't wait to start treatment now after wading through the last four pages!! (sarcasm). I'm not on trt, maybe should be - but from what i've read over the last ten years following this and other forums dedicated to trt, using the lowest effective dose always works out best for people. That may end up being 120, 150mg, whatever - but edging up from a low dose makes more sense that starting off on a higher one. Plus, the higher you go, the more likely you'll end up with problems like elevated hct / e2 etc. Can't be much fun having to dump blood on a regular basis just to make sure you don't....erm...die.

Its all good, I just try to absorb as much information as possible and try to make the best decisions for myself, ultimately it's up to you and the doctor to find out what works best.

FWIW - my current total test hovers around the 300 mark. My libido's great - there's more to libido than sky high test levels.

See for me it's this right here, I know everyone is different but it makes me feel like I'm getting myself into something I shouldn't be at the moment. Your total test is lower than mine and you say your libido is great so it confuses me. I've tried a host of different things I'm even on cialis daily now, no luck except for I have been getting erections more often which is cool but It feels like I'm just going through the motions.. not to mention I cannot finish for a very long time, a couple times this week I couldn't at all, with or without the wife lol.
Oh well gotta keep plugging away maybe ill find something eventually.

In regards to fatigue and brain fog that is a common low T problem too? Especially lately I can get 9 hours of sleep but wake up in the morning and feel like I haven't slept at all, cant think clearly for hours until 10-11 in the morning and even than I'm still feeling exhausted throughout the day.

My blood work form seems to be missing SHBG.. is that really needed or can you just rely on FT?

 

[Anonymon]

Its all good, I just try to absorb as much information as possible and try to make the best decisions for myself, ultimately it's up to you and the doctor to find out what works best.

See for me it's this right here, I know everyone is different but it makes me feel like I'm getting myself into something I shouldn't be at the moment. Your total test is lower than mine and you say your libido is great so it confuses me. I've tried a host of different things I'm even on cialis daily now, no luck except for I have been getting erections more often which is cool but It feels like I'm just going through the motions.. not to mention I cannot finish for a very long time, a couple times this week I couldn't at all, with or without the wife lol.
Oh well gotta keep plugging away maybe ill find something eventually.

In regards to fatigue and brain fog that is a common low T problem too? Especially lately I can get 9 hours of sleep but wake up in the morning and feel like I haven't slept at all, cant think clearly for hours until 10-11 in the morning and even than I'm still feeling exhausted throughout the day.

My blood work form seems to be missing SHBG.. is that really needed or can you just rely on FT?

You might be able to estimate your SHBG based on the free T and TT numbers since people use SHBG to estimate free T from TT all the time. In my blood work doing one or the other comes in pretty close.

I’ll give another point to the libido being far more complicated than your test numbers. I’m honestly not sure mine has ever had much correspondence to it. I also almost never get morning wood, on TRT or before, and for me it seems to have more to do with other hormones. If I take Cialis it’s harder to finish, which might be an issue with you.

There’s also the fact that your hormones all exist in a balance and have a lot of redundancy to them. You can have lower TT, then your SHBG and other things drop to make more of it free, and your T to E ratio changes with it, and still be fine. TT is like your testosterone gas tank, and you can still drive fine with less gas in the tank for many people when it comes to many bodily functions. You’re just freer to drive faster with more TT as long as your free T goes up with it. If your problem wasn’t test, sometimes more test actually makes it worse, or for some makes it better by causing the other hormones to catch up. Everyone’s different. In order though, usually you make sure your adrenals are okay, then thyroid, then test / estrogen, then growth hormone and other things. If you add more test on top of a thyroid and adrenal problem then it won’t do much for most and might make it worse. And in some fixes it. It’s all wonky.

I actually get brain fog more from thyroid and cortisol issues than testosterone ones. I personally never got brain fog with lower testosterone.

 

[madman]

I thoroughly appreciate your posts around here and attention to detail and trying to keep people in check, and will continue to do so hereafter. You do realize that you’re largely making a semantic argument though right? Things can be different when someone’s just starting TRT and I wholeheartedly agree things can get wonky there in some folks, but you repeating that hormones are in flux is somewhat of a nonargument. You’re making it seem like things are bouncing up and down the range all over the place across all major hormonal axises until an arbitrary end point of 3 months when the chaos stops and the smoke clears and a new person emerges. It’s pretty clear any flux that happens is going to taper off increasingly as time goes on. Technically your hormones and all else will be in flux for an entire year after making a change, but it would be silly to tell people to wait a year before adjusting anything.

For personal reference, most of my protocol’s had me at 1100-1300 TT at peak since I inject daily, and a free T of usually 15-25 again at peak, with my E2 being in the low to mid 50s without an AI. That’s been at 150-200ish test-e or c a week at various points with HCG at varying daily or 3x a week doses. Adding T3 made that all wonky but that’s where I was usually at. Currently I’m actually taking 140mgish a week.

I also achieved what most people would like to achieve with HRT before actually doing it though. I already looked better and was stronger than most people that pursue this tend to get, so for me I was mostly trying to figure out other issues and maintain my health in the aftermath of a bad reaction to a medication. If that was not the case I would be making different decisions.

I will continue to respectfully disagree with your claim that someone needs 3 months to evaluate their current protocol, and suggest that after about a month you pretty much know what to expect, and tell anyone that if they can maintain good blood work and health without side effects by using higher doses up to say 200mg a week and you objectively feel and perform better at that higher dose, then it would appear silly not to do that.

On another note, I’m assuming you mentioning ‘optimization’ and ‘TOT’ is a reference to the Jay Campbell type stuff. I would advise anyone to be highly skeptical of Jay Campbell. Although plenty of what he says is spot on and he has many guests, like Nelson as I recall, who are trustworthy, Jay himself does strike me as a huckster on many topics. His copper hair growth stuff, for example. So I would be wary of trusting him on all things, despite a lot of what he says probably being true.

You do realize that you’re largely making a semantic argument though right? Things can be different when someone’s just starting TRT and I wholeheartedly agree things can get wonky there in some folks, but you repeating that hormones are in flux is somewhat of a nonargument. You’re making it seem like things are bouncing up and down the range all over the place across all major hormonal axises until an arbitrary end point of 3 months when the chaos stops and the smoke clears and a new person emerges. It’s pretty clear any flux that happens is going to taper off increasingly as time goes on. Technically your hormones and all else will be in flux for an entire year after making a change, but it would be silly to tell people to wait a year before adjusting anything.

This is going over your head.

No one is stating that hormones are bouncing all-around within the first 4-6 weeks let alone 3 months whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

Again blood levels are rising week after week until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) until the new set-point is reached.

During this time the body has no idea whether it is coming or going and it is very common for many to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust.

Many make the mistake of gauging how they feel and whether the protocol is a success or failure during this transition which can be very misleading.

Once blood levels have stabilized and the new set-point is reached it can take another 4-8 weeks for the body to adapt to those new levels and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone claiming whether a protocol was a success or failure.

Most starting on trt is going from an absurdly low TT 200-300 ng/dL/FT 5-10ng/dL or in other cases a higher-end TT (due to high SHBG) lowish/low FT---> TT 1000+ ng/dL with FT 30 ng/dL or in many cases a much higher (TT/FT) level within 4-6 weeks .....huge difference and there is no way that the body has fully adapted to the new test levels 4-6 weeks in before the new set-point is reached......not a chance.

Every protocol should be given 8 weeks after blood levels have stabilized and the new set-point is reached.

Even when tweaking a protocol whether increasing/decreasing dose blood levels are going to be rising or falling during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and the new set-point is reached.

Again very common for many to experience ups/downs during the transition.

Coming down is much harder than going up which can be even more frustrating for many and unfortunately, most have no clue and jump the gun and start changing things every 4-6 weeks because they do not feel well.

You need to give the body time to adapt to those new levels to truly gauge how you feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms.

Otherwise, you will be caught up on that never-ending merry-go-round chasing your tail endlessly!

If someone truly feels unwell 6 weeks in due to trough T levels too low (highly doubtful) then a dose adjustment would be needed.

Keep in mind that most aim for a protocol that provides stable blood levels throughout the week and although there will always be peak--->troughs they can be minimized/clipped by injecting more frequently.




For personal reference, most of my protocol’s had me at 1100-1300 TT at peak since I inject daily, and a free T of usually 15-25 again at peak, with my E2 being in the low to mid 50s without an AI. That’s been at 150-200ish test-e or c a week at various points with HCG at varying daily or 3x a week doses. Adding T3 made that all wonky but that’s where I was usually at. Currently I’m actually taking 140mgish a week.

Have no clue where your SHBG sits but even one had high/highish SHBG they can easily attain a high-end let alone absurdly high FT running a TT 1100-1300 ng/dL.

I would put money on it that your peak FT is much higher than 15-25 ng/dL running a peak TT 1000-1300 ng/dL.

The only way you would know where your FT level truly sits on such protocol is to have it tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best).

*Liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry (LCMS/MS) assays are considered the gold standard for TT measurement provide consistently higher accuracy, specificity, and sensitivity than do most immunoassays

*LCMS/MS should remain the gold standard method even for free T evaluation




I will continue to respectfully disagree with your claim that someone needs 3 months to evaluate their current protocol, and suggest that after about a month you pretty much know what to expect,

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one!




and tell anyone that if they can maintain good blood work and health without side effects by using higher doses up to say 200mg a week and you objectively feel and perform better at that higher dose, then it would appear silly not to do that.

Agee but again one can easily achieve a high-end let alone absurdly high trough FT running lower doses let alone hitting a trough TT 1000-1300 ng/dL.

Most on trt can easily achieve such levels on 100-150 mg T/week.....sure some may need 200 mg/week but it is far from common.

200 mg T/week is still a whopping dose especially when split into more frequent injections and can easily have ones trough TT/FT levels way too high!

If blood markers remain healthy minus any sides and one feels great overall then to each his own!

Many would never need the higher end dose to feel great overall let alone experience the beneficial effects of having healthy T levels!




On another note, I’m assuming you mentioning ‘optimization’ and ‘TOT’ is a reference to the Jay Campbell type stuff. I would advise anyone to be highly skeptical of Jay Campbell. Although plenty of what he says is spot on and he has many guests, like Nelson as I recall, who are trustworthy, Jay himself does strike me as a huckster on many topics. His copper hair growth stuff, for example. So I would be wary of trusting him on all things, despite a lot of what he says probably being true

Jay who?

 

[ivkonst2017]

Your total test is lower than mine and you say your libido is great so it confuses me.

I urge you not be confused because I understand what you think now. 300ng/dl total t is very low. Yes, there are exceptions of guys for which that is enough. MINORITY. it Maybe he is from the exceptions. Or Maybe his libido is fine, but he has other low t symptoms?

I also had good libido pre TRT, but errections were weak, and there were other more important issues - depression and anxiety. Dont let the fact that someone feels better on lower t levels persuade you out. I know that maybe hesitating is part of the low t as well, at least that was for me. Im a bit bitter now I hesitated for two years starting therapy, and you know I missed precious time of my life in that period and ruined a relationship.

People on forums like this tend to hesitate a lot, but we all seem to forget one thing - TIME is the most precious asset we have in this world! You cant buy time with anything - you can do that with enough money to only a limited EXTEND, but thats a complex topic.
So thats why I dont wanna wast 3 fuckin months of my life in needlessly waiting for a doomed protocol, when I know it takes a few weeks for a protocol to work on me.

 

[Tgk_143]

I urge you not be confused because I understand what you think now. 300ng/dl total t is very low. Yes, there are exceptions of guys for which that is enough. MINORITY. it Maybe he is from the exceptions. Or Maybe his libido is fine, but he has other low t symptoms?

I also had good libido pre TRT, but errections were weak, and there were other more important issues - depression and anxiety. Dont let the fact that someone feels better on lower t levels persuade you out. I know that maybe hesitating is part of the low t as well, at least that was for me. Im a bit bitter now I hesitated for two years starting therapy, and you know I missed precious time of my life in that period and ruined a relationship.

People on forums like this tend to hesitate a lot, but we all seem to forget one thing - TIME is the most precious asset we have in this world! You cant buy time with anything - you can do that with enough money to only a limited EXTEND, but thats a complex topic.
So thats why I dont wanna wast 3 fuckin months of my life in needlessly waiting for a doomed protocol, when I know it takes a few weeks for a protocol to work on me.

Yeah I agree with you that some individuals with low normal T levels don't experience libido issues but may have other symptoms.. that makes sense. So I guess I won't let that persuade me out of the therapy.
As for time, I understand it is precious but to be impatient and jump into things may make things worse too, perhaps in other areas even.
I would like to explore and exhaust all possible treatments and lifestyle changes first, it is getting increasingly narrower because I have been trying alot of different things over the last 2+ years.
The other issue I have with trt is the high maintenance of the therapy, having to inject 2+ times a week and the potential side effects and difficulties getting "dialed in"

I do remember the first 2 weeks when I tried it back 3 years ago I felt amazing , not sure if it was placebo but I had an amazing amount of energy, libido felt great and I woke up completely awake and energetic in the mornings. Even during that time I felt like I should be trying everything I could first before committing to trt, I started getting side effects around the 3 week mark than I stopped shortly after. Looking back though if I would have kept on it I'm sure I'd probably be dialed in and feeling great now.

 

[ivkonst2017]

I would like to explore and exhaust all possible treatments and lifestyle changes first, it is getting increasingly narrower because I have been trying a lot of different things over the last 2+ years.

According to your words you are already living a healthy lifestyle, so if that is true and your diet is really healthy(not too much or too little calories and not devoid of some vital nutrients or macros) then you have exhausted that option. The percentage of the people who manage to optimize testosterone naturally ENOUGH to fix their symptoms is really low. It is more likely if you manage to find a medical reason for the suboptimal levels and fix it, but as I understand you've also tried that an generally again few people manage to do that. For people of your age such levels are pretty common nowadays.

I was also very hesitant and my levels were also not TOO bad, so I found an experienced doctor who has managed enough patients on TRT and has the knowledge and experience to evaluate whether I should start and what is the chance I benefit from that. Read again the word CHANCE, nobody can tell you for sure what will happen until you try something! I would advise you to do the same, find a doctor who knows what he is doing and he would be more likely to asses your situation and tell you whether there is a good chance you benefit from TRT. As I understand the doctor you have been planning to start with is not competent enough. Even if you want to do your treatment with him for cost benefits, find another one with better exepience and knowledge at least for some online consultation and assessing your symptoms and blood work. From there the choice is yours. Yes, TRT comes with overhead, you need to inject 2-3 times a week generally, do a blood work regularly, you may need some time to dial in and you gotta pay the money as well. There is nothing of quality free in this world The cost of TRT is not just the money, but if you need it is worthy 100 percent. For someone who likes to do it just for the fitness benefits for example its not worthy.

If you talk to a competent doctor, he fully assesses your health condition and you symptoms and thinks you will very likely benefit from TRT you have 2 choices - you act to improve the quality of your life or you continue like that until it becomes too intolerable. Both choices have consequences and a lot of people miss that NOT taking an action has as much consequences as taking such.

 

[Tgk_143]

According to your words you are already living a healthy lifestyle, so if that is true and your diet is really healthy(not too much or too little calories and not devoid of some vital nutrients or macros) then you have exhausted that option. The percentage of the people who manage to optimize testosterone naturally ENOUGH to fix their symptoms is really low. It is more likely if you manage to find a medical reason for the suboptimal levels and fix it, but as I understand you've also tried that an generally again few people manage to do that. For people of your age such levels are pretty common nowadays.

I was also very hesitant and my levels were also not TOO bad, so I found an experienced doctor who has managed enough patients on TRT and has the knowledge and experience to evaluate whether I should start and what is the chance I benefit from that. Read again the word CHANCE, nobody can tell you for sure what will happen until you try something! I would advise you to do the same, find a doctor who knows what he is doing and he would be more likely to asses your situation and tell you whether there is a good chance you benefit from TRT. As I understand the doctor you have been planning to start with is not competent enough. Even if you want to do your treatment with him for cost benefits, find another one with better exepience and knowledge at least for some online consultation and assessing your symptoms and blood work. From there the choice is yours. Yes, TRT comes with overhead, you need to inject 2-3 times a week generally, do a blood work regularly, you may need some time to dial in and you gotta pay the money as well. There is nothing of quality free in this world The cost of TRT is not just the money, but if you need it is worthy 100 percent. For someone who likes to do it just for the fitness benefits for example its not worthy.

If you talk to a competent doctor, he fully assesses your health condition and you symptoms and thinks you will very likely benefit from TRT you have 2 choices - you act to improve the quality of your life or you continue like that until it becomes too intolerable. Both choices have consequences and a lot of people miss that NOT taking an action has as much consequences as taking such.

Well finding a good doctor for trt has been quite difficult if not impossible. All I can find are two clinics in the Edmonton area that will provide someone like me testosterone. I've only been to the one clinic and they didn't even ask me what kind of symptoms I was experiencing before they gave me a prescription for T, I think they just assumed I had a few symptoms cause why would I be there if I didn't lol. But ya those clinics are both naturopathic clinics.
So I guess with the lack of concern and real desire to help me also pushed me away from the therapy. So if anyone knows a good doctor in the Edmonton Alberta area let me know.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Well finding a good doctor for trt has been quite difficult if not impossible. All I can find are two clinics in the Edmonton area that will provide someone like me testosterone. I've only been to the one clinic and they didn't even ask me what kind of symptoms I was experiencing before they gave me a prescription for T, I think they just assumed I had a few symptoms cause why would I be there if I didn't lol. But ya those clinics are both naturopathic clinics.
So I guess with the lack of concern and real desire to help me also pushed me away from the therapy. So if anyone knows a good doctor in the Edmonton Alberta area let me know.

Think a bit more globally men. Ive consulted with 3 doctors from different continents than the one I Iive in. I also dont have a TRT doctor that knows what he is doing at least in 3-4 countries radius.

 

[Tgk_143]

Think a bit more globally men. Ive consulted with 3 doctors from different continents than the one I Iive in. I also dont have a TRT doctor that knows what he is doing at least in 3-4 countries radius.

Yeah the only problem with that I recall is the doctors can't prescribe you T from other countries, at least here in Canada. They can however give professional advice. Don't get me wrong its better than nothing but if it doesnt correlate with the doctors protocols your getting the prescription from and they think you should change it up than there might be conflict. Nothing wrong with giving it a try though.

I actually just found this Telemedicine clinic in canada called ONMEN, seems relatively cheap except the quarterly checkups of $200 . Looks like they might deal with creams and other forms besides injectables as well. Could be worth looking into for myself i suppose.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Yeah the only problem with that I recall is the doctors can't prescribe you T from other countries, at least here in Canada. They can however give professional advice.

You can check with some of them for advice on whether you should start, what protocol to start with and then find a local clinic that will be willing to give you more freedom so you can follow this protocol.

This is the best solution Ive come up with when you cannot be managed by a knowledgeable HRT doctor. Otherwise you risk being put on a fucked up protocol that may make you feel worse than now.

 

[Anonymon]

You do realize that you’re largely making a semantic argument though right? Things can be different when someone’s just starting TRT and I wholeheartedly agree things can get wonky there in some folks, but you repeating that hormones are in flux is somewhat of a nonargument. You’re making it seem like things are bouncing up and down the range all over the place across all major hormonal axises until an arbitrary end point of 3 months when the chaos stops and the smoke clears and a new person emerges. It’s pretty clear any flux that happens is going to taper off increasingly as time goes on. Technically your hormones and all else will be in flux for an entire year after making a change, but it would be silly to tell people to wait a year before adjusting anything.

This is going over your head.

Not really. You then used many words to come back to the same point. I don’t intend for this to be an endless circular argument, so as a point for starting lower on your side, nobody wants gyno. I tend to ignore that since I’m seemingly immune, but I’d take that as a solid argument as any for erring on the side of caution. I will agree coming down is harder than going up, though when I make any change, like many, things are usually better in the very short term for various reasons.

For personal reference, most of my protocol’s had me at 1100-1300 TT at peak since I inject daily, and a free T of usually 15-25 again at peak, with my E2 being in the low to mid 50s without an AI. That’s been at 150-200ish test-e or c a week at various points with HCG at varying daily or 3x a week doses. Adding T3 made that all wonky but that’s where I was usually at. Currently I’m actually taking 140mgish a week.

Have no clue where your SHBG sits but even one had high/highish SHBG they can easily attain a high-end let alone absurdly high FT running a TT 1100-1300 ng/dL.

I would put money on it that your peak FT is much higher than 15-25 ng/dL running a peak TT 1000-1300 ng/dL.

The only way you would know where your FT level truly sits on such protocol is to have it tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best).

I’ve been tested countless times with all the labs you yourself are recommending for years since I started all this with a doctor well versed in it and everything you’d read around here and the general philosophies of this community. That’s where my peak TT and FT sit. Since trying T3 over the holidays my SHBG went down to 25 and screwed everything up for me something fierce, but before that it’d been around 35-40, depending on injection frequency. I inject daily in the morning, including when I get tested. Those are about as close to my peaks as you’re going to get. Outside of a GP or something I’m not sure anybody actually uses tests that aren’t the ones you prefer. Nelson and everybody else pretty much laid everything out for everyone and they all kind of do the same thing now based on the good work you guys have done over the years, which is commendable.

On another note, I’m assuming you mentioning ‘optimization’ and ‘TOT’ is a reference to the Jay Campbell type stuff. I would advise anyone to be highly skeptical of Jay Campbell. Although plenty of what he says is spot on and he has many guests, like Nelson as I recall, who are trustworthy, Jay himself does strike me as a huckster on many topics. His copper hair growth stuff, for example. So I would be wary of trusting him on all things, despite a lot of what he says probably being true

Jay who?

Jay Campbell wrote a book on TRT that’s pretty popular and in general has had a large impact on people doing TRT and related things. He’s all over the place in what he recommends and pretty much is telling people to run cycles responsibly. His guests tend to be good, but I do not personally trust everything he says myself because of how all over the place it is and how sometimes it’s verifiably wrong. I’m sure he probably means well, and plenty of what he says matches what you’d hear around here. He’s one of the guys that popularized terms like shooting for what’s ‘optimal’ and things like that.

 

[madman]

Not really. You then used many words to come back to the same point. I don’t intend for this to be an endless circular argument, so as a point for starting lower on your side, nobody wants gyno. I tend to ignore that since I’m seemingly immune, but I’d take that as a solid argument as any for erring on the side of caution. I will agree coming down is harder than going up, though when I make any change, like many, things are usually better in the very short term for various reasons.

I’ve been tested countless times with all the labs you yourself are recommending for years since I started all this with a doctor well versed in it and everything you’d read around here and the general philosophies of this community. That’s where my peak TT and FT sit. Since trying T3 over the holidays my SHBG went down to 25 and screwed everything up for me something fierce, but before that it’d been around 35-40, depending on injection frequency. I inject daily in the morning, including when I get tested. Those are about as close to my peaks as you’re going to get. Outside of a GP or something I’m not sure anybody actually uses tests that aren’t the ones you prefer. Nelson and everybody else pretty much laid everything out for everyone and they all kind of do the same thing now based on the good work you guys have done over the years, which is commendable.


Jay Campbell wrote a book on TRT that’s pretty popular and in general has had a large impact on people doing TRT and related things. He’s all over the place in what he recommends and pretty much is telling people to run cycles responsibly. His guests tend to be good, but I do not personally trust everything he says myself because of how all over the place it is and how sometimes it’s verifiably wrong. I’m sure he probably means well, and plenty of what he says matches what you’d hear around here. He’s one of the guys that popularized terms like shooting for what’s ‘optimal’ and things like that.

I would say it is still going over your head.

Whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol (increasing dose) anyone who has an understanding of how esterified exogenous T works should very well know that it is very common for one to experience what we call a honeymoon period during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized as dopamine/androgen levels are increasing (AR receptors lighting up) and many tend to experience an almost euphoric like feeling let alone strong increases in libido/erections and overall well-being.....unfortunately this is temporary and short-lived as the body will eventually adapt and things tend to level off.....gauging how you truly feel during this transition is a grave mistake.

Even when tweaking a protocol (decreasing dose) it is very common for one to experience ups/downs let alone be in for a bumpy ride during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) only to end up feeling much better 2-3 months in on such protocol.

Once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and the new set point is reached the next couple of months is where the rubber meets the road.

This is when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone claiming whether such protocol is a success or failure.

Unfortunately, everyone is in for that quick fix!

Top it all off that many take drastic measures when tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing dose too much) of the hop and again it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the following weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks)

The new protocol needs to be given a fighting chance as we need to allow the body time to fully adapt to the new set point which was reached once blood levels have stabilized (first 4-6 weeks).

Do not even get me started on the ones that are jacked up on T from the get-go (200 mg T/week) that has them feeling stellar for the first 6 weeks only to be let down 2-3 months in because trough FT levels are way too high leaving them feeling horrible.

If they had any sense in their heads let alone understood how esterified exogenous T works then they would be prepared for the fact 12 weeks is needed to truly gauge the effectiveness of a protocol and whether it was a success or failure.

The body will eventually adapt to the new setpoint and this will become the new norm.

Every time you decide to switch things up (increase/decrease dose T) the body will need time to fully adapt once the new setpoint is reached.

Although effects on quality of life become evident within 3–6 weeks the maximum benefits take longer.




I’ve been tested countless times with all the labs you yourself are recommending for years since I started all this with a doctor well versed in it and everything you’d read around here and the general philosophies of this community. That’s where my peak TT and FT sit. Since trying T3 over the holidays my SHBG went down to 25 and screwed everything up for me something fierce, but before that it’d been around 35-40, depending on injection frequency. I inject daily in the morning, including when I get tested. Those are about as close to my peaks as you’re going to get. Outside of a GP or something I’m not sure anybody actually uses tests that aren’t the ones you prefer. Nelson and everybody else pretty much laid everything out for everyone and they all kind of do the same thing now based on the good work you guys have done over the years, which is commendable.

Although I recommend testing FT using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) whether through Labcorp or Quest Diagnostics I have seen some wacky results from Quest Diagnostics let alone the reference ranges used.

If anything I would prefer testing FT through Labcorp using ED or UF as many of the results I have seen on here seem to be more consistent especially in cases of higher SHBG.


1. 500726: Testosterone, Free, Mass Spectrometry/Equilibrium Dialysis (Endocrine Sciences) | Labcorp (reference range 52-280 pg/mL)

2. 070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp (reference range 5.00 -21.00 ng/dL)


Not sure whether you are using Quest or Labcorp?

Post full set of labs.

Again can easily hit a high-end let alone absurdly high FT with a TT 1000-1300 ng/dL even men with high/highish SHBG.

Dr. Nutsack uses/relies upon this one.....
070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp (reference range 5.00 -21.00 ng/dL)




Jay Campbell wrote a book on TRT that’s pretty popular and in general has had a large impact on people doing TRT and related things. He’s all over the place in what he recommends and pretty much is telling people to run cycles responsibly. His guests tend to be good, but I do not personally trust everything he says myself because of how all over the place it is and how sometimes it’s verifiably wrong. I’m sure he probably means well, and plenty of what he says matches what you’d hear around here. He’s one of the guys that popularized terms like shooting for what’s ‘optimal’ and things like that.

I was kidding when I stated Jay who?

Have no interest in him let alone some of the folks he rolls with!

 

[Tgk_143]

Got my bloods back, free test was still pending.
Total test- 14.6nmol
E2- 53 pmol
FSH- 4.3iu/l
LH- 4.7iu/l
TSH 3.84mU/L
Ferritin-106ug/l

My cholesterol is actually kinda bad though not sure why as I eat healthy but eat alot of meat I guess.
Triglycerides- 1.23mmol
Cholesterol total-5.27mmol
HDL- 1.49mmol
LDL- 3.67mmol
Non HDL-4.23mmol.
B12 - 306pmol.

What you guys think of the TSH the ref range is .20 - 4.0 mU/L

 

[ivkonst2017]

Got my bloods back, free test was still pending.
Total test- 14.6nmol
E2- 53 pmol
FSH- 4.3iu/l
LH- 4.7iu/l
TSH 3.84mU/L
Ferritin-106ug/l

My cholesterol is actually kinda bad though not sure why as I eat healthy but eat alot of meat I guess.
Triglycerides- 1.23mmol
Cholesterol total-5.27mmol
HDL- 1.49mmol
LDL- 3.67mmol
Non HDL-4.23mmol.
B12 - 306pmol.

What you guys think of the TSH the ref range is .20 - 4.0 mU/L

Your total t is far from great. We do not know your albumin and your shbg.As you know me but other guys also with higher total t I had symptoms and needed to start TRT. However some men feel good with such t levels(we still dont know your shbg and albumin).

TSH is definetely bad. Everything above 2.5 is indicative of a problem. You have to test FT4 and most important - FT3. Also check TAT and MAT for autoimune. Also check iodine, iron, ferritin, sodium and selenium. If I were you I would start optimizing the thyroid. Correct any of the mineral deficiency if present, if not consider starting NDT. Optimizing thyroid can poasibly improve t levels, however not very likely.

B12 is also low. Its optimal values are between 600 and 900. You can start supplementing methylcobalamin 1000mcg daily. Dont use b12 in swallow pill forms.

 

[Tgk_143]

Your total t is far from great. We do not know your albumin and your shbg.As you know me but other guys also with higher total t I had symptoms and needed to start TRT. However some men feel good with such t levels(we still dont know your shbg and albumin).

TSH is definetely bad. Everything above 2.5 is indicative of a problem. You have to test FT4 and most important - FT3. Also check TAT and MAT for autoimune. Also check iodine, iron, ferritin, sodium and selenium. If I were you I would start optimizing the thyroid. Correct any of the mineral deficiency if present, if not consider starting NDT. Optimizing thyroid can poasibly improve t levels, however not very likely.

B12 is also low. Its optimal values are between 600 and 900. You can start supplementing methylcobalamin 1000mcg daily. Dont use b12 in swallow pill forms.

Just curious as to why NOT to take the pill forms of vitamin b12?
I'll look into the other one and see if I can get it.
Yeah I do want to check the FT3 and FT4 but doctors here won't unless over 4.0 TSH, however maybe the clinic I went to will.
What was your T levels at again pre TRT? How has the TRT journey been so far any regrets (truthfully speaking) and has it resolved your symptoms?

First I think I want to try these T boosters a friend of mine is using, it took his T levels from 13.2 to 17.7nmol
He was using Tongkat Ali and Fadogia agrestis.
Might be worth a try. Maybe I can get my levels in the 18s or 19s lol. Could be wishful thinking, but seemed to work for my buddy.