Hyrulewarrior1978
Active Member
No worries man you do you. Given the choice between klonopin and lexapro I think you made the right choice.
The Case Against Antidepressants
- Thread starter FunkOdyssey
- Start date
I am in somewhat same situation at the moment. I stopped prozac
2 weeks ago I stopped prozac after tapering for months. About 5-6 days later I got a panic attack for no reason at all during some routine work. After that panic attack I was more anxious than I have ever been in years. I went to a new doc that seemed knowledgeable and agreed that if it affects libido or cause Ed then keep looking.
So he suggested an older medication amitripyline 10mg which is the lowest dose. Unfortunately after taking it my already low diastolic blood pressure dropped below 50 (my normal is around 65-70) so after speaking with him, he suggested trazodone as it doesn't cause libido or Ed issues. I am on the 4th day of 75mg trazodone and I ve been sleeping for like 12-14 hours a day since I started it. Hopefully this side effect will go away once I get used to the medication.
Anyway I still have withdrawals from prozac so he said that I can try trintellix 5mg in the morning. Bad advice though cause my libido dropped again and don't know which to blame.
You have to realise that taking prozac for like 2 months, will do nothing for you. You probably need to be on medication for the rest of your life. SSRIs don't cure the underlying cause, they just cover it.
Like you, I need to be on medication for life . If you feel like shit then these two could work for you(trazodone or trintellix). But again, only after speaking with your doctor first.
About what to blame for your mental state I think you know the answer.
There is a reason you were on a ssri's in the past.
I mean trt can cause issues itself but feeling that bad would require severe hormone deficiencies and/or changes.
There are people who are sensitive to even the slightest change in protocol but with your history I would bet my money that's it's the same cause that made you take antidepressants in the first place
Well said. I think that a healthy hormone milieu might be a prerequisite for feeling content, but it’s not the only factor. Having hormones out of whack can affect you emotionally (we all can attest to that); but, fixing hormones (whatever that means), is no guarantee for happiness. This is part of the reason why I applaud @readalot for exploring ways to better himself by looking beyond TRT.
It’s easy to get tunnel vision with TRT (guilty as charged here).
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I didn’t take ssri ever for depression. And I only took it for 2 years back in the early 2000s for anxiety. I tried low dose ssri for cortisol issues. A dr back in the day on the forums swore it could help guys with lower cortisol levels. to some degree it did for me.
seems the cause of my depression As of late is when ever my trt dose is too high. Or too frequent. I’m feeling much better in that department on 2x a week at a lower dose. Only issue with that is I lose some of the benefits. Like my fantastic libido, spontaneous erections And better flaccid hang
T
tareload
Guest
Ok, I know you have all been on the edge of your seats for an update (lmfao) so here it is.
TRT disclosure:
I am on 80 mg/week TC/TP blend (4:1) - 40 mg twice weekly + 400 IU twice weekly hCG. Anything above that and my Hct will get up above 50.
Doc prescribed benzo and escitalopram 10 mg daily last month. Tried the benzo for a few days and thought ok that is what drug addicts feel like, cool. Then promptly stopped. Tried the 10 mg daily escitalopram for a few days and headaches so dropped to 5 mg daily for last 4 weeks based in part from recommendation of our beloved resident AD SME @FunkOdyssey .
So after 4 weeks the panic/anxiety/heart racing outside of gym is gone. Gone. Libido is also gone. In fact everything is gone. Even trying to suffer through daily mental crucifixions during workouts I still showed up every day. Now zero motivation to workout but I can deal with that. Still very minor anxiety when I push workout but night and day difference in the gym experience.
On work side... no care. SSRIs (my anecdotal n=1) seem really effective at blunting any and all professional motivation. And blunt interpersonal motivation. Thank goodness never tried these in the old days. In summary, the SSRI really did a bang up job on the panic/anxiety/heart racing and left me more depressed and less motivated (bonus). Grateful it gave me some relief on the panic.
Confirmed everything @FunkOdyssey shared. Should be out on a street corner with my cardboard box duplex by the end of year. Peace!! J/K.
Now to practice those CBT skills and use the power of the brain to will my intentions to reality. Whoosh!!
TRT disclosure:
I am on 80 mg/week TC/TP blend (4:1) - 40 mg twice weekly + 400 IU twice weekly hCG. Anything above that and my Hct will get up above 50.
Doc prescribed benzo and escitalopram 10 mg daily last month. Tried the benzo for a few days and thought ok that is what drug addicts feel like, cool. Then promptly stopped. Tried the 10 mg daily escitalopram for a few days and headaches so dropped to 5 mg daily for last 4 weeks based in part from recommendation of our beloved resident AD SME @FunkOdyssey .
So after 4 weeks the panic/anxiety/heart racing outside of gym is gone. Gone. Libido is also gone. In fact everything is gone. Even trying to suffer through daily mental crucifixions during workouts I still showed up every day. Now zero motivation to workout but I can deal with that. Still very minor anxiety when I push workout but night and day difference in the gym experience.
On work side... no care. SSRIs (my anecdotal n=1) seem really effective at blunting any and all professional motivation. And blunt interpersonal motivation. Thank goodness never tried these in the old days. In summary, the SSRI really did a bang up job on the panic/anxiety/heart racing and left me more depressed and less motivated (bonus). Grateful it gave me some relief on the panic.
Confirmed everything @FunkOdyssey shared. Should be out on a street corner with my cardboard box duplex by the end of year. Peace!! J/K.
Now to practice those CBT skills and use the power of the brain to will my intentions to reality. Whoosh!!
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I’m sorry, man. Wish I could help.
T
tareload
Guest
Thanks for the kind words. In the end the only person who can help you is you with this stuff (and the Doc with the Rx pad evidently haha). I appreciate it Brother. I have not forgot about your request just been a little sidetracked.
Will follow up with you. Have a nice weekend.
Don’t sweat it, my man. I have more data that may be useful. But, at this time, I just don’t think injections and me get along. For the time being, moving away from them.
Hyrulewarrior1978
Active Member
Yea it sounds like you have a bad social anxiety disorder that was never addressed when you were younger. Exposure therapy works for that. I had that at one point, and then I grew out of it as I got older. Also mushrooms can help with that as well if you’re looking for something more natural.
T
tareload
Guest
Not that I am aware of. Around people all day long and never an issue until had the AFIB episode and then slowly the exercise induced anxiety and panic took hold. COVID wildcard. From there it then seeped into work calls and then just on walks. Interesting experience for sure.
I have done exposure therapy for trauma as well as CBT to address depression.
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
I really have been eager to hear how you're doing.
LOL
LOL. I would have liked to be wrong but yours is a typical case of an SSRI doing what SSRIs do. At least you haven't lost your sense of humor!
I would suggest trying 2.5 mg daily once you feel comfortable to do so. It should still have considerable anti-anxiety effects and the lower dose may restore some aspects of normal human experience. It is also a natural stepping stone towards an eventual tapering off the drug.
T
tareload
Guest
Good point. I exaggerate. Still have the humor even if little Chester does not want to come out and play any more. We will pray for him.
I can see where this SSRI stuff does take a perfectly successful overachiever and puts him on the street corner (thinking of the movie The Jerk). At least you can be calm on the corner.
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There already was a post linking to Mad In America, but this site really can't be mentioned enough, as it is also the largest hub for professionals with a very large collection of essays, blog articles, collection of research and evidence, to object to the malpractice of modern psychiatric drug prescriptions with main focus on antidepressants and antipsychotics.
There is also have a page called "The case against antipsychotics" and an analogous page about antidepressants that summarizes the entire issue and evidence:
www.madinamerica.com
There is also have a page called "The case against antipsychotics" and an analogous page about antidepressants that summarizes the entire issue and evidence:
Drug Info: Antidepressants
www.madinamerica.com
T
tareload
Guest
12 weeks update...
pushed through and libido and ED impacts of escitalopram have subsided. 5 mg/d of escitalopram has gotten me back to pushing it reasonably hard in the gym...maybe 80% back to where I was with no panic. Something still feels off in the chest but I am learning to ignore it. Spent a couple months at 100 mg/week TC/TP blend and last week bumped to 120 mg/week on top of 400 IU twice weekly u-hCG.
Headed back toward the sun @FunkOdyssey, wish me luck.
Frontiers | The impact of escitalopram on vagally mediated cardiovascular function to stress and the moderating effects of vigorous physical activity: a randomized controlled treatment study in healthy participants
Recent concerns over the impact of antidepressant medications, including the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), on cardiovascular function high...
www.frontiersin.org
Article of the day.
T
tareload
Guest
From article in last post:
While animal and human studies (Babyak et al., 2000; Engesser-Cesar et al., 2007; Arunrut et al., 2009) have indicated that the combination of exercise and antidepressant medication may confer no advantage over either treatment alone, there is another issue at stake here. Although antidepressant medication—including the tricyclic medications, the serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor and the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors—may have short- to medium-term benefits including the amelioration of depressive symptoms and increased resilience to stress, research has begun to highlight the longer-term adverse cardiovascular effects of antidepressants (Whang et al., 2009; Licht et al., 2010a). Reductions in HRV have been attributable to the specific effects of antidepressants (Licht et al., 2008, 2010a) while increases in HRV are associated with their cessation (Licht et al., 2010a). An epidemiological study (Whang et al., 2009) on 63,469 women aged 30–55 years without baseline coronary heart disease (CHD) reported that while depressive symptoms were associated with fatal CHD, antidepressant use (61% of participants were using an SSRI) was specifically associated with a 3.34 increased risk for sudden cardiac death even after controlling for a variety of confounds. A more recent study has reported that reduced cardiovascular fitness is associated with an increased risk of suicide over a 42 year follow-up period (Åberg et al., 2013) highlighting the importance of cardiovascular health over the lifespan. Together, these findings highlight the importance of research on the cardiovascular effects of antidepressants and specific lifestyle factors such as physical activity. The present study makes an important contribution to this effort highlighting that the cardiovascular effects of regular vigorous exercise and of an acute dose of escitalopram during stress are comparable, i.e., both are associated with a decrease in HR and an increase in HRV.
In the present study we demonstrated that acute administration of escitalopram is associated with increased vagal function under both resting and task conditions; a finding that was particularly robust for HR. This finding is consistent with reported short- to medium-term beneficial effects of SSRIs on cardiovascular and neuroendocrine responses to stress in depressed patients (e.g., Straneva-Meuse, 2004b), but contrast against longer-term research outcomes (Whang et al., 2009; Licht et al., 2010a) highlighting the adverse effects of the SSRI class of antidepressants. Here, an explanation for this apparent discrepancy is the complexity of central and autonomic 5-HT effects on cardiovascular function, which include bradycardia, associated with activation of 5-HT1A receptors, as well as tachycardia, associated with activation of 5HT2 receptors. It is possible that the effects of SSRIs shift from parasympathetic—as shown here—to sympathetic activation with increasing length of use. Further research is urgently needed on the combination of antidepressants and physical activity over longer-time frames than typical clinical trials (i.e., years rather than months).
While animal and human studies (Babyak et al., 2000; Engesser-Cesar et al., 2007; Arunrut et al., 2009) have indicated that the combination of exercise and antidepressant medication may confer no advantage over either treatment alone, there is another issue at stake here. Although antidepressant medication—including the tricyclic medications, the serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor and the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors—may have short- to medium-term benefits including the amelioration of depressive symptoms and increased resilience to stress, research has begun to highlight the longer-term adverse cardiovascular effects of antidepressants (Whang et al., 2009; Licht et al., 2010a). Reductions in HRV have been attributable to the specific effects of antidepressants (Licht et al., 2008, 2010a) while increases in HRV are associated with their cessation (Licht et al., 2010a). An epidemiological study (Whang et al., 2009) on 63,469 women aged 30–55 years without baseline coronary heart disease (CHD) reported that while depressive symptoms were associated with fatal CHD, antidepressant use (61% of participants were using an SSRI) was specifically associated with a 3.34 increased risk for sudden cardiac death even after controlling for a variety of confounds. A more recent study has reported that reduced cardiovascular fitness is associated with an increased risk of suicide over a 42 year follow-up period (Åberg et al., 2013) highlighting the importance of cardiovascular health over the lifespan. Together, these findings highlight the importance of research on the cardiovascular effects of antidepressants and specific lifestyle factors such as physical activity. The present study makes an important contribution to this effort highlighting that the cardiovascular effects of regular vigorous exercise and of an acute dose of escitalopram during stress are comparable, i.e., both are associated with a decrease in HR and an increase in HRV.
In the present study we demonstrated that acute administration of escitalopram is associated with increased vagal function under both resting and task conditions; a finding that was particularly robust for HR. This finding is consistent with reported short- to medium-term beneficial effects of SSRIs on cardiovascular and neuroendocrine responses to stress in depressed patients (e.g., Straneva-Meuse, 2004b), but contrast against longer-term research outcomes (Whang et al., 2009; Licht et al., 2010a) highlighting the adverse effects of the SSRI class of antidepressants. Here, an explanation for this apparent discrepancy is the complexity of central and autonomic 5-HT effects on cardiovascular function, which include bradycardia, associated with activation of 5-HT1A receptors, as well as tachycardia, associated with activation of 5HT2 receptors. It is possible that the effects of SSRIs shift from parasympathetic—as shown here—to sympathetic activation with increasing length of use. Further research is urgently needed on the combination of antidepressants and physical activity over longer-time frames than typical clinical trials (i.e., years rather than months).
T
tareload
Guest
This article describes my experience thus far:
academic.oup.com
Good thing I listened to my Doctor. Now I can enjoy destroying the gym once again and QOL has improved significantly. Knock on wood it has only been a few months.
@Fortunate, @Belekas, @bixt and others who have wondered about TRT/TOT and exaggerated autonomic/inotropic/chronotropic effects...5 mg/day of escitalopram has me handling upping my "TRT" dose from 80 to 100 to 120 mg/week TC/TP mix much better than prior to its use. Probably another thing to watch out for as it may provide a cover to allow some of us sensitive folk to up our dose (more than we need for TRT) for ahem "hobby" purposes.
And full disclosure I am probably just late to the party from years ago about the touted low dose SSRI + TOT mix. Thanks for your patience @FunkOdyssey. It is nice to learn at the knees from someone with so much field experience.
The SSRI did nothing for my depression though which is pretty funny (no primary effect). Maybe made it a little worse. Good thing I learned how to cope with that years ago, and it allows me to lift and enjoy body dysmorphia (which helps with the depression - secondary vs primary effect).
SOLD!
Blunted autonomic reactivity to pharmacological panic challenge under long-term escitalopram treatment in healthy men
AbstractBackground:. Central serotonergic pathways influence brain areas involved in vagal cardiovascular regulation and, thereby, influence sympathetic ef
academic.oup.com
Good thing I listened to my Doctor. Now I can enjoy destroying the gym once again and QOL has improved significantly. Knock on wood it has only been a few months.
@Fortunate, @Belekas, @bixt and others who have wondered about TRT/TOT and exaggerated autonomic/inotropic/chronotropic effects...5 mg/day of escitalopram has me handling upping my "TRT" dose from 80 to 100 to 120 mg/week TC/TP mix much better than prior to its use. Probably another thing to watch out for as it may provide a cover to allow some of us sensitive folk to up our dose (more than we need for TRT) for ahem "hobby" purposes.
And full disclosure I am probably just late to the party from years ago about the touted low dose SSRI + TOT mix. Thanks for your patience @FunkOdyssey. It is nice to learn at the knees from someone with so much field experience.
The SSRI did nothing for my depression though which is pretty funny (no primary effect). Maybe made it a little worse. Good thing I learned how to cope with that years ago, and it allows me to lift and enjoy body dysmorphia (which helps with the depression - secondary vs primary effect).
SOLD!
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Vestpocket
Member
This is not true.
There are zero studies that show antidepressants to be "very effective." At best, there are studies that can show that there is a minimal, marginal effect, when given enough time. A 2018 metastudy showed that the average placebo match for all third generation ADs is 74%, roughly 60% of people receive no positive effect whatsoever from any particular drug, the 1MDR (one month drop-off rate) for SSRIs is 80%(!), and of the minority of people that claim a benefit, it's actually a mere 2-4 points on the rating scale being used (BDI, HDRS, etc.)
There has never been a "very effective" antidepressant drug released, to date. We have only marginal efficacy in a minority of takers, with 80% of people dropping them in the first month due to side effects or lack of efficacy, and that number climbing sharply as we get to 2, 3, and 6 months.
Funny enough, the effect of exercise (30 minutes walking) actually beats all currently existing anti-depressant drugs on the market when using the same depression rating scales. Not one pharmaceutical on the market today beats a little walking. That's how weak ADs are.
There are many studies that show exact placebo matches for popular drugs like Prozac and Wellbutrin (zero effect; I have about 5 bookmarked for Wellbutrin presently), and a very famous 2000 metastudy by an MIT PhD that looked at all the unpublished and contrary studies that were not submitted to journals and concluded that modern anti-depressants have no averaged out efficacy against depression whatsoever. (Suggesting that what we see published in journals are mostly the studies that show a lucky 2-3 point bias towards the drug, because we can find just as many that show the placebo control pill winning by the same degree when we look at what was not submitted for publication.)
I made the mistake of trying 10 or so different antidepressants over the years. Not one of them had any effect. Placebo. Junk.
The 74% placebo match (and some are higher) of antdepressant drugs versus their placebo control shows that the majority of the effect of any of these drugs is raw expectation bias.
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T
tareload
Guest
May not do much/anything for depression but sure as sh*t (complex scientific term) works on sympathetic regulation. Vast improvement in this chronic exerciser. Not even close as compared to exercise. But I have made the deal with Satan as my mood and anhedonia have gotten worse. Probably good time to add back in some nandrolone, oxandrolone and stanozolol!
And no one has commented on Rollins' masterpiece. I am disappointed in you all.
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T
tareload
Guest
Mental Stress and Cardiovascular Health—Part I
Epidemiological studies have shown that a substantial proportion of acute coronary events occur in individuals who lack the traditional high-risk cardiovascular (CV) profile. Mental stress is an emerging risk and prognostic factor for coronary artery disease and stroke, independently of...
www.mdpi.com
The Impact of Mental Stress on Cardiovascular Health—Part II
Endothelial dysfunction is one of the earliest manifestations of atherosclerosis, contributing to its development and progression. Mental stress induces endothelial dysfunction through increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system, release of corticotropin-releasing hormone from the...
www.mdpi.com
For those of us a little more tightly wound, is the case for escitalopram hiding in plain sight?
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