Still feeling horrible after E2 crashing and recovering

[zack_92]

Hey everyone, please bear with my long story! I messed up big time and I'm in dire need of help!!!

I was prescribed testosterone cypionate (100mg/week, split into daily shots) in July 2020 after a couple of tests confirmed low TT levels (approx 200 ng/dL). This brought my TT up to 800 - 900 ng/dL, sensitive E2 to 45 pg/mL . I experienced a boost in confidence, energy levels and mood, but not much improvement in libido (which I realized later was due to a heavy daily intake of DHT inhibiting pumpkin seeds).

I increased my intake to 150mg/week but still didn't experience any changes to libido. Out of desperation, I cluelessly started taking massive amounts of testosterone around Nov 2020 (500 to 700 ng/dL for about 4 weeks), which obviously helped with libido but the accompanying increase in E2 caused me severe acne, painful nipples, fatigue, mild depression etc. Instead of waiting it out, I got some UGL aromasin and took 25mg for a couple of weeks but continued feeling the same way. I raised that to 50mg and still didn't feel any better. I ended up taking 1 pill a day till March 2021 and it was still the same!!! I should've gotten labs at this point but I foolishly continued popping aromasin like candy based on how I was feeling. Around mid March 2021, I finally asked my doctor for arimidex (thinking the UGL aromasin was bunk) and took about 0.5mg a day for 4 weeks before I felt the high E2 symptoms subsiding. At this point, I decided to get tests and sure enough, my E2 was undetectable.

My mood rapidly declined and I started experiencing panic attacks and severely depressive thoughts. The hair on my scalp shrank and changed texture from straight to curly. Strangely, I was unable to tolerate perfumes/colognes, any foods rich in phytoestrogens (soy, flax etc) as they seemed to aggravate the low E2 symptoms! My E2 finally recovered to ~50pg/mL in July 2021 (4 months after recording undetectable levels), but I still continued to experience low E2 symptoms from the foods and perfumes (despite no changes in actual E2 levels). I never quite got back to how I felt before April 2021. The only respite I had was when I used a friend's leftover hcg back in June 2021, but that only lasted 2 weeks. I couldn't get access to hcg because I live in California and my doctor only prescribes from empower pharmacy.

I decided to switch to Clomid (12.5mg daily) in Dec 2021 after waiting a week from my last cypionate shot. It worked very well for about 10 days (I even experienced a lot of my low E2 symptoms improve!), but every pill after that caused genital numbness, irritability and fatigue. I also became very emotional on clomid and soon enough, started seeing floaters as well.

Around Jan 2022, I switched back to testosterone cypionate 3 weeks after starting clomid. Unfortunately, using clomid seems to have aggravated some of my old low E2 symptoms. I ceased clomid 6 months ago but even now, consuming soy/flax etc or using perfumes makes me overly emotional and triggers several low E2 symptoms (such as hopelessness, horrible crying bouts) which I thought had resolved before switching to clomid. I still have floaters in my eyes. Things are improving, but a lot slower than my E2 crash back in 2021.

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer I can sit around waiting to fully recover. It might be years at this rate. I'm contemplating stopping everything in the hopes of recovering my old hypogonadal levels. I know it isn't the most optimal solution, but my reasoning is that since I felt almost completely recovered while using the hcg in June last year, its possible that testicular aromatization isn't as easily affected by the foods and perfumes etc as peripheral aromatization. So maybe recovering gonadal function could fix most of my low E2 symptoms?

I'm reluctant to trying SERMs to restart HPTA given the permanent floaters in my eyes and considering how clomid aggravated a lot of my old low E2 symptoms. Any ideas on what I can do to recover HPTA function? Would you recommend going cold turkey? Appreciate the help!

 

[Vince]

Hey everyone, please bear with my long story! I messed up big time and I'm in dire need of help!!!

I was prescribed testosterone cypionate (100mg/week, split into daily shots) in July 2020 after a couple of tests confirmed low TT levels (approx 200 ng/dL). This brought my TT up to 800 - 900 ng/dL, sensitive E2 to 45 pg/mL . I experienced a boost in confidence, energy levels and mood, but not much improvement in libido (which I realized later was due to a heavy daily intake of DHT inhibiting pumpkin seeds).

I increased my intake to 150mg/week but still didn't experience any changes to libido. Out of desperation, I cluelessly started taking massive amounts of testosterone around Nov 2020 (500 to 700 ng/dL for about 4 weeks), which obviously helped with libido but the accompanying increase in E2 caused me severe acne, painful nipples, fatigue, mild depression etc. Instead of waiting it out, I got some UGL aromasin and took 25mg for a couple of weeks but continued feeling the same way. I raised that to 50mg and still didn't feel any better. I ended up taking 1 pill a day till March 2021 and it was still the same!!! I should've gotten labs at this point but I foolishly continued popping aromasin like candy based on how I was feeling. Around mid March 2021, I finally asked my doctor for arimidex (thinking the UGL aromasin was bunk) and took about 0.5mg a day for 4 weeks before I felt the high E2 symptoms subsiding. At this point, I decided to get tests and sure enough, my E2 was undetectable.

My mood rapidly declined and I started experiencing panic attacks and severely depressive thoughts. The hair on my scalp shrank and changed texture from straight to curly. Strangely, I was unable to tolerate perfumes/colognes, any foods rich in phytoestrogens (soy, flax etc) as they seemed to aggravate the low E2 symptoms! My E2 finally recovered to ~50pg/mL in July 2021 (4 months after recording undetectable levels), but I still continued to experience low E2 symptoms from the foods and perfumes (despite no changes in actual E2 levels). I never quite got back to how I felt before April 2021. The only respite I had was when I used a friend's leftover hcg back in June 2021, but that only lasted 2 weeks. I couldn't get access to hcg because I live in California and my doctor only prescribes from empower pharmacy.

I decided to switch to Clomid (12.5mg daily) in Dec 2021 after waiting a week from my last cypionate shot. It worked very well for about 10 days (I even experienced a lot of my low E2 symptoms improve!), but every pill after that caused genital numbness, irritability and fatigue. I also became very emotional on clomid and soon enough, started seeing floaters as well.

Around Jan 2022, I switched back to testosterone cypionate 3 weeks after starting clomid. Unfortunately, using clomid seems to have aggravated some of my old low E2 symptoms. I ceased clomid 6 months ago but even now, consuming soy/flax etc or using perfumes makes me overly emotional and triggers several low E2 symptoms (such as hopelessness, horrible crying bouts) which I thought had resolved before switching to clomid. I still have floaters in my eyes. Things are improving, but a lot slower than my E2 crash back in 2021.

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer I can sit around waiting to fully recover. It might be years at this rate. I'm contemplating stopping everything in the hopes of recovering my old hypogonadal levels. I know it isn't the most optimal solution, but my reasoning is that since I felt almost completely recovered while using the hcg in June last year, its possible that testicular aromatization isn't as easily affected by the foods and perfumes etc as peripheral aromatization. So maybe recovering gonadal function could fix most of my low E2 symptoms?

I'm reluctant to trying SERMs to restart HPTA given the permanent floaters in my eyes and considering how clomid aggravated a lot of my old low E2 symptoms. Any ideas on what I can do to recover HPTA function? Would you recommend going cold turkey? Appreciate the help!

I would just use 50 mg of testosterone cypionate twice a week for 12 weeks and get labs. If your doctor will prescribe HCG for you I would also inject 500 IU twice a week along with your testosterone.

 

[zack_92]

I would just use 50 mg of testosterone cypionate twice a week for 12 weeks and get labs. If your doctor will prescribe HCG for you I would also inject 500 IU twice a week along with your testosterone.

Thanks for replying! I'm thinking of stopping TRT due to the bizarre effects I've been experiencing since my crash last year. Any tips how to go about a restart without SERMs? Can I use hcg for a month to prep my balls, and then stop everything cold turkey?

 

[Fortunate]

You might consider using Natesto to treat low T symptoms, which may simultaneously allow some of your axis to recover.

I am oversimplifying, but you might consider looking into it.

 

[Vince]

Thanks for replying! I'm thinking of stopping TRT due to the bizarre effects I've been experiencing since my crash last year. Any tips how to go about a restart without SERMs? Can I use hcg for a month to prep my balls, and then stop everything cold turkey?

I don't think you should get off of TRT. I still believe you should do 50 mg of testosterone on twice a week.

If you stick to your decision of getting off TRT. After HCG I would use 12.5 mg of enclomphene everyday or every other day.

 

[zack_92]

You might consider using Natesto to treat low T symptoms, which may simultaneously allow some of your axis to recover.

I am oversimplifying, but you might consider looking into it.

Thanks! That’s an interesting suggestion. Let me talk to my doctor about it.

 

[zack_92]

If you stick to your decision of getting off TRT. After HCG I would use 12.5 mg of enclomphene everyday or every other day.

Appreciate your inputs! I’m averse to trying another SERM since I still have eye floaters from using Clomid and I’m concerned that SERMs’ mechanism of blocking estrogen from the brain might further worsen my existing low E2 symptoms.

In your opinion, what should I expect going off cold turkey? And will running hcg for a while before coming off everything make a significant difference?

 

[Vince]

Appreciate your inputs! I’m averse to trying another SERM since I still have eye floaters from using Clomid and I’m concerned that SERMs’ mechanism of blocking estrogen from the brain might further worsen my existing low E2 symptoms.

In your opinion, what should I expect going off cold turkey? And will running hcg for a while before coming off everything make a significant difference?

You haven't been on TRT too long. Your old levels should return within three to six months.

 

[SpyrosB]

Hey everyone, please bear with my long story! I messed up big time and I'm in dire need of help!!!

I was prescribed testosterone cypionate (100mg/week, split into daily shots) in July 2020 after a couple of tests confirmed low TT levels (approx 200 ng/dL). This brought my TT up to 800 - 900 ng/dL, sensitive E2 to 45 pg/mL . I experienced a boost in confidence, energy levels and mood, but not much improvement in libido (which I realized later was due to a heavy daily intake of DHT inhibiting pumpkin seeds).

I increased my intake to 150mg/week but still didn't experience any changes to libido. Out of desperation, I cluelessly started taking massive amounts of testosterone around Nov 2020 (500 to 700 ng/dL for about 4 weeks), which obviously helped with libido but the accompanying increase in E2 caused me severe acne, painful nipples, fatigue, mild depression etc. Instead of waiting it out, I got some UGL aromasin and took 25mg for a couple of weeks but continued feeling the same way. I raised that to 50mg and still didn't feel any better. I ended up taking 1 pill a day till March 2021 and it was still the same!!! I should've gotten labs at this point but I foolishly continued popping aromasin like candy based on how I was feeling. Around mid March 2021, I finally asked my doctor for arimidex (thinking the UGL aromasin was bunk) and took about 0.5mg a day for 4 weeks before I felt the high E2 symptoms subsiding. At this point, I decided to get tests and sure enough, my E2 was undetectable.

My mood rapidly declined and I started experiencing panic attacks and severely depressive thoughts. The hair on my scalp shrank and changed texture from straight to curly. Strangely, I was unable to tolerate perfumes/colognes, any foods rich in phytoestrogens (soy, flax etc) as they seemed to aggravate the low E2 symptoms! My E2 finally recovered to ~50pg/mL in July 2021 (4 months after recording undetectable levels), but I still continued to experience low E2 symptoms from the foods and perfumes (despite no changes in actual E2 levels). I never quite got back to how I felt before April 2021. The only respite I had was when I used a friend's leftover hcg back in June 2021, but that only lasted 2 weeks. I couldn't get access to hcg because I live in California and my doctor only prescribes from empower pharmacy.

I decided to switch to Clomid (12.5mg daily) in Dec 2021 after waiting a week from my last cypionate shot. It worked very well for about 10 days (I even experienced a lot of my low E2 symptoms improve!), but every pill after that caused genital numbness, irritability and fatigue. I also became very emotional on clomid and soon enough, started seeing floaters as well.

Around Jan 2022, I switched back to testosterone cypionate 3 weeks after starting clomid. Unfortunately, using clomid seems to have aggravated some of my old low E2 symptoms. I ceased clomid 6 months ago but even now, consuming soy/flax etc or using perfumes makes me overly emotional and triggers several low E2 symptoms (such as hopelessness, horrible crying bouts) which I thought had resolved before switching to clomid. I still have floaters in my eyes. Things are improving, but a lot slower than my E2 crash back in 2021.

At this point, I'm not sure how much longer I can sit around waiting to fully recover. It might be years at this rate. I'm contemplating stopping everything in the hopes of recovering my old hypogonadal levels. I know it isn't the most optimal solution, but my reasoning is that since I felt almost completely recovered while using the hcg in June last year, its possible that testicular aromatization isn't as easily affected by the foods and perfumes etc as peripheral aromatization. So maybe recovering gonadal function could fix most of my low E2 symptoms?

I'm reluctant to trying SERMs to restart HPTA given the permanent floaters in my eyes and considering how clomid aggravated a lot of my old low E2 symptoms. Any ideas on what I can do to recover HPTA function? Would you recommend going cold turkey? Appreciate the help!

Considering your AI usage and what you report it's more likely that you are now suffering from extremely high E2 activity, not low. Your E2 may be showing as normal on bloods, but it won't matter. However you really haven't done nearly enough blood tests throughout all this. 1mg of Arimidex has been shown to decrease E2 levels by 45% in some people who have taken bloods right before and after. What do you think your regimen did to you? Estrogen starvation and oversensitisation of E receptors as a result, which has even been demonstrated in women with chronic AI use for breast cancer. This is why whenever you touch anything that increases E2 levels you get horrible symptoms. It's also why HCG kind of helped in your case, as considering your state it will initially increase T/E ratio, which will be alleviating.

What you are technically experiencing is severe AI withdrawal and dependency.
What you need to do is get a blood test, severely reduce your estrogen with AI, restart your HPTA, get more blood tests, and see how you go from there by slowly reducing AI and allowing E2 receptor sensitivity to climb back to normal.

 

[Flexedup]

Considering your AI usage and what you report it's more likely that you are now suffering from extremely high E2 activity, not low. Your E2 may be showing as normal on bloods, but it won't matter. However you really haven't done nearly enough blood tests throughout all this. 1mg of Arimidex has been shown to decrease E2 levels by 45% in some people who have taken bloods right before and after. What do you think your regimen did to you? Estrogen starvation and oversensitisation of E receptors as a result, which has even been demonstrated in women with chronic AI use for breast cancer. This is why whenever you touch anything that increases E2 levels you get horrible symptoms. It's also why HCG kind of helped in your case, as considering your state it will initially increase T/E ratio, which will be alleviating.

What you are technically experiencing is severe AI withdrawal and dependency.
What you need to do is get a blood test, severely reduce your estrogen with AI, restart your HPTA, get more blood tests, and see how you go from there by slowly reducing AI and allowing E2 receptor sensitivity to climb back to normal.

That is largely what is practiced by bodybuilders and I would highly recommend against it (I learned the hard way). I feel that we are all wired to have a limited amount by which we can tolerate an estrogen crash before bad things really begin manifest onto what appears to be flat-out permanent dysfunction of the entire hormonal cascade. Taking large doses of Aromasin in combination with Arimidex for weeks on end is a challange on it's own especially when on TRT because many downstream pathways will downregulate on exogenous testosterone. It is largely why you see folks supplementing DHEA, pregnenolone and HCG after years of being on because TRT depletes them. The best bet for his scenario would be is to cruise on low dose HCG Monotherapy until everything reverses and he's out of that state.

 

[SpyrosB]

That is largely what is practiced by bodybuilders and I would highly recommend against it (I learned the hard way). I feel that we are all wired to have a limited amount by which we can tolerate an estrogen crash before bad things really begin manifest onto what appears to be flat-out permanent dysfunction of the entire hormonal cascade. Taking large doses of Aromasin in combination with Arimidex for weeks on end is a challange on it's own especially when on TRT because many downstream pathways will downregulate on exogenous testosterone. It is largely why you see folks supplementing DHEA, pregnenolone and HCG after years of being on because TRT depletes them. The best bet for his scenario would be is to cruise on low dose HCG Monotherapy until everything reverses and he's out of that state.

You are correct, after learning a ton more I want to take my comment back and regret sounding so knowledgeable. Although, the only really bad part about what I said is using AIs. Doing something akin to a PCT is probably a good idea when struggling with these issues. Although it seems to be the case that increasing E2 instead of lowering it ends up allowing it to regulate everything again.. There's so many inconsistencies in low E threads that it's hard to figure stuff out. There should have been clearer reporting of symptoms and blood levels honestly. I think that other thread where they discovered IM E injections fixed their low E issues was massively significant, but we dont know what their E levels were half the time.

How are your low E symptoms going?

 

[Flexedup]

You are correct, after learning a ton more I want to take my comment back and regret sounding so knowledgeable. Although, the only really bad part about what I said is using AIs. Doing something akin to a PCT is probably a good idea when struggling with these issues. Although it seems to be the case that increasing E2 instead of lowering it ends up allowing it to regulate everything again.. There's so many inconsistencies in low E threads that it's hard to figure stuff out. There should have been clearer reporting of symptoms and blood levels honestly. I think that other thread where they discovered IM E injections fixed their low E issues was massively significant, but we dont know what their E levels were half the time.

How are your low E symptoms going?

I'm doing significantly better on many fronts and currently suffer in the libido arena, but I'm aware that it's the last thing to come back online. It's like your body's way of giving you the icing on the cake. I suffered from severe depression following an E2 crash that has been single handedly the worst experience of my entire life. It takes the color and flavor out of your day to day and being alive become extremely daunting. I'm glad I'm past that as I'm currently cruising on HCG. Almost all the symptoms pertaining to cognitive and mental acuity has been resolved. I'm cruising in order to backfill all my cascade for the next 3 month prior to jumping on a SERM and get the brain signal going. This all started after being prescribed Androgel by my PCP like it was benadryl, used it for a few months and started noticing the loss of my fertility, thats when I began coming off. I've done SERMs only to recover but my TT levels always returned in the ballpark of 170ng/dl. Figured my ITT was not recovered and thus, HCG for the rescue.

Thanks for asking. Are you living through a crash?

 

[SpyrosB]

I'm doing significantly better on many fronts and currently suffer in the libido arena, but I'm aware that it's the last thing to come back online. It's like your body's way of giving you the icing on the cake. I suffered from severe depression following an E2 crash that has been single handedly the worst experience of my entire life. It takes the color and flavor out of your day to day and being alive become extremely daunting. I'm glad I'm past that as I'm currently cruising on HCG. Almost all the symptoms pertaining to cognitive and mental acuity has been resolved. I'm cruising in order to backfill all my cascade for the next 3 month prior to jumping on a SERM and get the brain signal going. This all started after being prescribed Androgel by my PCP like it was benadryl, used it for a few months and started noticing the loss of my fertility, thats when I began coming off. I've done SERMs only to recover but my TT levels always returned in the ballpark of 170ng/dl. Figured my ITT was not recovered and thus, HCG for the rescue.

Thanks for asking. Are you living through a crash?

You mean Androgel put you through this in your case? or was there prior AI use?

I'm suffering from PSSD, after taking an antidepressant, and I'm in the process of connecting it to Estrogen issues akin to the ones described in threads like this.

 

[Flexedup]

You mean Androgel put you through this in your case? or was there prior AI use?

I'm suffering from PSSD, after taking an antidepressant, and I'm in the process of connecting it to Estrogen issues akin to the ones described in threads like this.

Androgel left me with very high estrogen that I couldn't expunge out of my system and in turn suppressed my TT levels for recovery. That's when I took Aromasin to purge it out and caused me the crash.

I've read many anecdotal account regarding PSSD, Post finasteride and E2 crash, etc. And they're almost all similar. Hope you recover soon!

 

[SpyrosB]

Androgel left me with very high estrogen that I couldn't expunge out of my system and in turn suppressed my TT levels for recovery. That's when I took Aromasin to purge it out and caused me the crash.

I've read many anecdotal account regarding PSSD, Post finasteride and E2 crash, etc. And they're almost all similar. Hope you recover soon!

Have you tried injecting estradiol valerate, or applying it transdermally?