Do higher estrogen levels in men on TRT make them more emotional or irritable?
- Thread starter Vince
- Start date
Golfboy307
Active Member
For me: absolutely. When I am running even over a 35 on sensitive E2, I am weepy at almost anything.
Vince, forgot to mention, hope your wife is doing well...
Vince, forgot to mention, hope your wife is doing well...
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
Most guys that say that (for emotions or water retention) never measure their estradiol. So, it’s an easy way out.
Not a single study using anastrozole has shown better emotional state. Same with water retention. Testosterone without that little bit of 0.4 percent of its aromatization would actually be detrimental for many aspects of life. Estradiol is just like DHT, an enhancer of testosterone.
Estradiol actually has strong data on brain function.
I welcome non anecdotal discussion on the subject from someone that actually reads science.
i have been repeating this for close to 10 years. Gladly, more studies are supporting my views.
Role of Estradiol in Men and Its Management
Not a single study using anastrozole has shown better emotional state. Same with water retention. Testosterone without that little bit of 0.4 percent of its aromatization would actually be detrimental for many aspects of life. Estradiol is just like DHT, an enhancer of testosterone.
Estradiol actually has strong data on brain function.
I welcome non anecdotal discussion on the subject from someone that actually reads science.
i have been repeating this for close to 10 years. Gladly, more studies are supporting my views.
Role of Estradiol in Men and Its Management
Collectively, these data demonstrate that estrogen may elicit changes in emotional behavior through an endocannabinoid mechanism...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Estrogen has effects on activity levels and emotional reactivity in both humans and rats.
www.sciencedirect.com
Finally, sex hormones directly influence the hypothalamus and the hippocampus of the central nervous system. These two areas are known to play an important role in the psychological functions of emotion and perception and are known to be responsible for the interpretation of sensory information (Buchanan et al., 1992).
...
The Affect Intensity Measure (AIM) (Larsen and Diener, 1987) is a 40-item questionnaire that assesses the intensity by which an individual experiences his or her emotions.
...
As for emotionality, an interaction between time and group was found on the Affect Intensity Measure (AIM). Paired comparisons showed that [males-to-females] increased in affect intensity (t(1,99)=4.27, p<0.001), while [females-to-males] decreased (t(1,99)=3.26, p<0.001) over time during hormone therapy.
Estrogen recruits the endocannabinoid system to modulate emotionality - PubMed
Estrogen administration elicits anxiolytic and antidepressant-like effects in female rats; however, the mechanism of this effect is unknown. Fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH), the enzyme which degrades the endocannabinoid anandamide, has been shown to be regulated by estrogen. Thus, we examined...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Estrogen has effects on activity levels and emotional reactivity in both humans and rats.
Estrogen's effects on activity, anxiety, and fear in two mouse strains
Estrogen has effects on activity levels and emotional reactivity in both humans and rats. In a recent study conducted in ovariectomized (OVX) C57BL/6 …
www.sciencedirect.com
Finally, sex hormones directly influence the hypothalamus and the hippocampus of the central nervous system. These two areas are known to play an important role in the psychological functions of emotion and perception and are known to be responsible for the interpretation of sensory information (Buchanan et al., 1992).
...
The Affect Intensity Measure (AIM) (Larsen and Diener, 1987) is a 40-item questionnaire that assesses the intensity by which an individual experiences his or her emotions.
...
As for emotionality, an interaction between time and group was found on the Affect Intensity Measure (AIM). Paired comparisons showed that [males-to-females] increased in affect intensity (t(1,99)=4.27, p<0.001), while [females-to-males] decreased (t(1,99)=3.26, p<0.001) over time during hormone therapy.
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Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
@Cataceous
The mice were implanted estrogen pellets or oil in both studies. No E2 blood levels were measured. Are these mice comparable to a man with 800 ng/dL T and a E2 of 45 pg/mL? A man on TRT never has estradiol even close to a woman going through their menstrual cycle. Also, a woman (or mice) does not have the level of T that we do.
I would welcome any data that is actually usable!
The mice were implanted estrogen pellets or oil in both studies. No E2 blood levels were measured. Are these mice comparable to a man with 800 ng/dL T and a E2 of 45 pg/mL? A man on TRT never has estradiol even close to a woman going through their menstrual cycle. Also, a woman (or mice) does not have the level of T that we do.
I would welcome any data that is actually usable!
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
Estradiol in Men: Libido and Brain Function
Role of estradiol in the brain The effect of estradiol on libido is seen at various levels of regulation, starting with direct effects in the brain (Figure 1). Areas of the brain that control sexual behavior in mammals are thought to do so via pheromones that induce specific sexual effects on...
www.excelmale.com
And I would welcome any ideas of how to handle heightened emotional state from TRT with out using an AI. So far AI administration is the only thing that helps.
The emotions are real as is the anxiety and irritability, if its not the E2 then what is it? And why does an AI help?
P.S. anti depressants dont work.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
If taking an AI works for you, then that is a good thing.
There is a strong placebo component in pain and mood clinical studies. That effect wears off in a few weeks. If an AI works for you for more than 2 months, then it works for you.
I think there are several potential factors that may induce irritability in men on TRT:
1- Pre-existing irritability traits. Irritability, in my opinion and experience, comes from feeling we are not in control of our surroundings. It can also be caused by poor sleep, a constant stressor like nagging wife or kids (again, lack of control of your surroundings), financial stress, comparing ourselves to others, and many more factors.
2- TRT shuts down progesterone and most of pregnenolone. These two hormones are tied to calmness, sleep quality and mood. Too bad we do not have data on supplementing either of them or a combination of them.
3- There may be an increase in epinephrine on TRT but I can't find the study now.
It is unfortunate that we only have a very small study like this one that provided only one injection if Aveed (Nebido). Results would probably be more meaningful with a larger sample size and a year follow up with several injections.
academic.oup.com
Results of the present study showed that elevation of T to supraphysiological or high normal levels for 2–4 wk had significant minor effects on mood but none on aggressive tendencies or other aspects of behavior such as assertiveness, irritability, self-esteem, or sexual function. Specifically, TU administration was associated with significant increases in the anger-hostility scores from baseline to wk 2, compared with a reduction in anger-hostility over the same time period in the placebo phase. Although this change in anger-hostility is statistically significant, the clinical or pathological significance is uncertain. The mean anger-hostility scores reported at wk 2 (mean = 10.7) are comparable with normative data from college samples in the United States (mean = 10.1) (33) and with hypogonadal men after T replacement therapy (mean = 10.2) (27). To further place it in context, impulsive-aggressive individuals who meet the first two diagnostic criteria for intermittent explosive disorder (45) and have a history of serious assaultive and aggressive acts have been found to score 16.0 on the anger-hostility subscale of the POMS (46). Therefore, the magnitude of the observed change in the present study is comparatively minor and remained well within the normal range. It is likely to reflect, at most, a subtle response to a transient elevation in circulating T revealed only under closely controlled psychometric monitoring. Nevertheless, future investigations should monitor any potential changes in anger-hostility to rule out clinically significant effects in susceptible individuals, especially after repeated or sustained elevations of T into the supraphysiological range.
There is a strong placebo component in pain and mood clinical studies. That effect wears off in a few weeks. If an AI works for you for more than 2 months, then it works for you.
I think there are several potential factors that may induce irritability in men on TRT:
1- Pre-existing irritability traits. Irritability, in my opinion and experience, comes from feeling we are not in control of our surroundings. It can also be caused by poor sleep, a constant stressor like nagging wife or kids (again, lack of control of your surroundings), financial stress, comparing ourselves to others, and many more factors.
2- TRT shuts down progesterone and most of pregnenolone. These two hormones are tied to calmness, sleep quality and mood. Too bad we do not have data on supplementing either of them or a combination of them.
3- There may be an increase in epinephrine on TRT but I can't find the study now.
It is unfortunate that we only have a very small study like this one that provided only one injection if Aveed (Nebido). Results would probably be more meaningful with a larger sample size and a year follow up with several injections.
Effects of Testosterone on Mood, Aggression, and Sexual Behavior in Young Men: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Cross-Over Study
Abstract. The prospects of wider application of testosterone (T) in novel indications such as male contraception have prompted renewed interest in the inve
academic.oup.com
Results of the present study showed that elevation of T to supraphysiological or high normal levels for 2–4 wk had significant minor effects on mood but none on aggressive tendencies or other aspects of behavior such as assertiveness, irritability, self-esteem, or sexual function. Specifically, TU administration was associated with significant increases in the anger-hostility scores from baseline to wk 2, compared with a reduction in anger-hostility over the same time period in the placebo phase. Although this change in anger-hostility is statistically significant, the clinical or pathological significance is uncertain. The mean anger-hostility scores reported at wk 2 (mean = 10.7) are comparable with normative data from college samples in the United States (mean = 10.1) (33) and with hypogonadal men after T replacement therapy (mean = 10.2) (27). To further place it in context, impulsive-aggressive individuals who meet the first two diagnostic criteria for intermittent explosive disorder (45) and have a history of serious assaultive and aggressive acts have been found to score 16.0 on the anger-hostility subscale of the POMS (46). Therefore, the magnitude of the observed change in the present study is comparatively minor and remained well within the normal range. It is likely to reflect, at most, a subtle response to a transient elevation in circulating T revealed only under closely controlled psychometric monitoring. Nevertheless, future investigations should monitor any potential changes in anger-hostility to rule out clinically significant effects in susceptible individuals, especially after repeated or sustained elevations of T into the supraphysiological range.
GreenMachineX
Well-Known Member
I’m wondering the implications of this. First, I do not suffer from ED, but I have a strong suspicion I run hard on adrenaline/norepinephrine all day long. My reasons for believing this are as follow:
My BP is perfect upon waking, for example, 116/70. But, shortly after waking and as the day goes on, it stays around 150/70, unless I sit calmly for about 20 minutes with slow deep breaths and it will come back down to 120-130 over 70.
I also generally feel stimulated and “amped” during the waking hours. I will also get periods where my hands become freezing cold, my heart rate will increase to 90 from 60, and it’ll feel like I’ve taken a stimulant just from having a difficult conversation. It’s like an exaggerated response to normal situations that we all deal with.
Lastly, there’s other “side effects” of vasoconstriction ill leave out for now.
Could testosterone levels too high contribute to this, or the reduction of progesterone and pregnenolone? My pregnenolone levels are undetectable on last blood test, but preg makes me feel forgetful, dumb and almost confused.
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Yes, I was steady state for several months at 14 mg a day of T and .05 ai daily. This kept my E at 18ish. I stopped taking my AI because I would love to limit the drugs I take, and two weeks later I was crying over about anything. I went and had my T and E measured, and my E was up to 48. So, for me, I definitely see a correlation. In full transparency, I cried easily before starting T therapy when my T was 140ish and my E was 16. Could it be a ratio thing...maybe... but I do know that both scenarios resulted in a highly emotional state. As a positive note, I felt pretty good from 3 days after stopping the AI until the emotions kicked in.
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I've had e2 of 12 up to 85. No difference for me.
An estradiol level of 35 pg/mL or above definitely make me emotional, moody, anxious, less able to handle stress, and worsens ED symptoms. I do much better at a level in the low 20s. This is true regardless of what my testosterone level is, so the E/T ratio doesn't mean too much to me.
I've read many of the studies, and there are some great science-based opinions in this forum that totally disagree with my views. I also have a great deal of respect for the knowledge of senior forum members that relay information that backs up those opinions. I absolutely wish I was wrong regarding my personal need for an AI (at a reasonable dose), but my body tells me differently.
Sometimes I've thought "It's all in my head", but as an example I was feeling very emotional/anxious this Summer. Sure enough, my E level was 45.3 pg/mL. Started using a slightly higher amount of AI and symptoms resolved.
I've read many of the studies, and there are some great science-based opinions in this forum that totally disagree with my views. I also have a great deal of respect for the knowledge of senior forum members that relay information that backs up those opinions. I absolutely wish I was wrong regarding my personal need for an AI (at a reasonable dose), but my body tells me differently.
Sometimes I've thought "It's all in my head", but as an example I was feeling very emotional/anxious this Summer. Sure enough, my E level was 45.3 pg/mL. Started using a slightly higher amount of AI and symptoms resolved.
BStewart45
New Member
Just curious, where was your FT and TT at when your E was at 18ish? I have just recently started a new protocol going from 1x week of .6cc IM with .75mg/week AI for almost 8 years to 3x/week .2cc and no AI. I am on my 2nd week and have only felt some anxiety and maybe a little low mood at times but nothing too dramatic. i have seen an increase in anxiety that I have resolved with ***. I am going to do my best to give it 6-8weeks before getting labs and then adjust my T dosage accordingly(up or down) based on my FT results.
I'm not sure how much E2 is necessary for me but at a certain point I can be on the brink of tears from nothing.
Increased estrogen level can be associated with depression in males - PubMed - somewhat interesting.
Results: Obese men had compared to normal weight controls lower total testosterone (12.6±4.7 vs 19.4±5.5 nmol/L, p<0.001 in <60years, and 13.8±6.9 vs 18.3±5.9 nmol/L, p<0.001 in >60years group) and free testosterone (249.0±73.9 vs 337.2±82.0pmol/L, p<0.001, and 217.8±71.2 vs 263.4±72.2pmol/L, p<0.001), and increased estradiol in older group only (97.3±43.0 vs 82.3±34.2pmol/L, p<0.001 in obese). Men <60years old with depressive symptomatology had higher estradiol levels compared to those without depressive symptomatology (96.3±40.7 vs 84.4±36.6pmol/L, p<0.001), however no association with BMI was observed.
Very little difference in estradiol though, but agrees with my experience.
Increased estrogen level can be associated with depression in males - PubMed - somewhat interesting.
Results: Obese men had compared to normal weight controls lower total testosterone (12.6±4.7 vs 19.4±5.5 nmol/L, p<0.001 in <60years, and 13.8±6.9 vs 18.3±5.9 nmol/L, p<0.001 in >60years group) and free testosterone (249.0±73.9 vs 337.2±82.0pmol/L, p<0.001, and 217.8±71.2 vs 263.4±72.2pmol/L, p<0.001), and increased estradiol in older group only (97.3±43.0 vs 82.3±34.2pmol/L, p<0.001 in obese). Men <60years old with depressive symptomatology had higher estradiol levels compared to those without depressive symptomatology (96.3±40.7 vs 84.4±36.6pmol/L, p<0.001), however no association with BMI was observed.
Very little difference in estradiol though, but agrees with my experience.
This is actually somewhat interesting too, if extremely specific:
link.springer.com
" Testosterone and oestrogen decreased serotonin, norepinephrine and epinephrine levels. Progesterone treatment resulted in an increase of serotonin level and a fall in norepinephrine and epinephrine levels. Corticosterone treatment caused an increase of serotonin level and a decrease of norepinephrine and epinephrine levels."
Effect of steroid hormones on serotonin, norepinephrine and epinephrine contents in the pineal-paraphyseal complex of the soft-shelled turtle (Lissemys punctata punctata) - Journal of Comparative Physiology B
Steroids (testosterone, oestrogen, progesterone, corticosterone, dexamethasone and deoxycorticosterone) were administered intramuscularly (0.1 mg · 100 g bw-1) on seven consecutive days to juvenile male soft-shelled turtles. Serotonin, norepinephrine and epinephrine contents of the...
link.springer.com
" Testosterone and oestrogen decreased serotonin, norepinephrine and epinephrine levels. Progesterone treatment resulted in an increase of serotonin level and a fall in norepinephrine and epinephrine levels. Corticosterone treatment caused an increase of serotonin level and a decrease of norepinephrine and epinephrine levels."
Last test I did at night before injection day was around 13 nmol/l range (9-27) so I am assuming my injection is is within normal range ! If not exactly On range !
I will do another test by the end of this month. To double check the levels.
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