Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

[Abuser200]

Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are?

@JoeMatts im curious for this as well

 

[Gingkohagane]

I'd go just with injections

 

[thyronine]

Same experience here.
Keeping my total testosterone above 34 nmol/l (1000 ng/dl) causes erectile dysfunction, absent libido, severe physical anxiety, hairloss, bloat, cognitive impairment, high blood pressure, elevated prolactin + estradiol + HCT, reduced HDL - the list could go on.
My current protocol is 50iu HCG + 50 mg transcrotal cream (1 click / 0.25g compounded 20%) every morning. This has my levels at 20 nmol/l (600 ng/dl) upon waking + pre-administration, rising to ~28 nmol/l (850ng/dl) four hours post-cream application.
Sexual function is great, anxiety is gone, heart no longer pounds in bed at night, blood pressure is 120/80 and water retention resolved entirely.
I also take 5mg DHEA and 12.5mcg T4, which along with the above keeps T, DHEA, Prog and T3/4 in the top quarter of their respective ranges, whilst TSH, prolactin and estradiol are all low-normal. Occasionally I'll take 12.5mg of proviron for the mental boost it brings, but that's a rarity these days.
Balanced would be the best word to describe how I currently feel.

 

[Tman]

This was my experience with TRT, too.

On weekly injections I always found that I felt the best a day or two before my next shot was due, around 650 ng/dl. Then, a day or so after my next injection when levels hit > 1000 ng/dl, erections and libido would disappear again, water retention would go up and brain fog would return. As I moved to a higher injection frequency and higher levels were kept more constant, my sexual function was lost outright.

Deep down I always knew that I felt better at lower level, but I didn't want to believe it. Everyone thinks that they can make extremely high levels work - mainly because they think it'll confer them an 'advantage' over naturals re: muscle, sexual function, energy, etc - but for most, it doesn't work that way.

Instead of acknowledging that it was the high testosterone itself causing the issues, I instead looked for scapegoats in estradiol, HCG, adrenal hormones, etc, as the cause of all my hormone-related issues. In reality, the real problem was staring me in the face the entire time, but I chose not to see it.

Years of time and energy wasted due to that mindset.

I see we've lived similar lives

 

[Willyt]

Same experience here.
Keeping my total testosterone above 34 nmol/l (1000 ng/dl) causes erectile dysfunction, absent libido, severe physical anxiety, hairloss, bloat, cognitive impairment, high blood pressure, elevated prolactin + estradiol + HCT, reduced HDL - the list could go on.
My current protocol is 50iu HCG + 50 mg transcrotal cream (1 click / 0.25g compounded 20%) every morning. This has my levels at 20 nmol/l (600 ng/dl) upon waking + pre-administration, rising to ~28 nmol/l (850ng/dl) four hours post-cream application.
Sexual function is great, anxiety is gone, heart no longer pounds in bed at night, blood pressure is 120/80 and water retention resolved entirely.
I also take 5mg DHEA and 12.5mcg T4, which along with the above keeps T, DHEA, Prog and T3/4 in the top quarter of their respective ranges, whilst TSH, prolactin and estradiol are all low-normal. Occasionally I'll take 12.5mg of proviron for the mental boost it brings, but that's a rarity these days.
Balanced would be the best word to describe how I currently feel.

Have you tried this protocol without the HCG?

I ask because I’ve wondered whether trans scrotal cream at 1x per day would avoid shut down of upstream hormones since the cream is short acting without ester (i.e., similar to Natesto). In theory it would allow you to return to baseline T trough before the next application. However not sure if scrotal cream clears system quickly enough.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Same experience here.
Keeping my total testosterone above 34 nmol/l (1000 ng/dl) causes erectile dysfunction, absent libido, severe physical anxiety, hairloss, bloat, cognitive impairment, high blood pressure, elevated prolactin + estradiol + HCT, reduced HDL - the list could go on.
My current protocol is 50iu HCG + 50 mg transcrotal cream (1 click / 0.25g compounded 20%) every morning. This has my levels at 20 nmol/l (600 ng/dl) upon waking + pre-administration, rising to ~28 nmol/l (850ng/dl) four hours post-cream application.
Sexual function is great, anxiety is gone, heart no longer pounds in bed at night, blood pressure is 120/80 and water retention resolved entirely.
I also take 5mg DHEA and 12.5mcg T4, which along with the above keeps T, DHEA, Prog and T3/4 in the top quarter of their respective ranges, whilst TSH, prolactin and estradiol are all low-normal. Occasionally I'll take 12.5mg of proviron for the mental boost it brings, but that's a rarity these days.
Balanced would be the best word to describe how I currently feel.

What is your SHBG?

 

[thyronine]

What is your SHBG?

It's held around 30 - 35 over the last couple of years.

 

[thyronine]

Have you tried this protocol without the HCG?

I ask because I’ve wondered whether trans scrotal cream at 1x per day would avoid shut down of upstream hormones since the cream is short acting without ester (i.e., similar to Natesto). In theory it would allow you to return to baseline T trough before the next application. However not sure if scrotal cream clears system quickly enough.

I haven't, unfortunately.
However, although test base has a short half life, the cream itself still takes a little while to absorb - I think that'd be enough to keep the HPTA suppressed.
Injectable test base would be the only way to test such theory.

 

[camygod]

I haven't, unfortunately.
However, although test base has a short half life, the cream itself still takes a little while to absorb - I think that'd be enough to keep the HPTA suppressed.
Injectable test base would be the only way to test such theory.

do you know absorption % of transcrotal test cream
approximately how much of the 50mg you would absorb

 

[thyronine]

do you know absorption % of transcrotal test cream
approximately how much of the 50mg you would absorb

~20% IIRC.

 

[Willyt]

I had read absorption rate was 50-60% versus 10% for other areas of the body.

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[ERO]

I have tried combinations of injectable T Cyp + cream, injectable T Prop + cream, cream alone, in various dosages and feel no better. Low SHBG person, so in theory this should have helped. I know the combination works well for some guys.

 

[madman]

do you know absorption % of transcrotal test cream
approximately how much of the 50mg you would absorb

Standard transdermal application whether gels/cream is anywhere from 9-14%.

The scrotum shows the highest rate of steroid absorption (40-fold higher than the forearm).

Absorption through the scrotal application is greater due not only to the thinnest stratum corneum, but it also has high steroid permeability much greater than non‐scrotal skin.....let alone scrotal skin is highly vascularized which will result in rapid absorption.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testosterone substitution with a new transdermal, hydroalcoholic gel applied to scrotal or non-scrotal skin: a multicentre trial (2005)


*This is the first study dealing with the application of a testosterone-containing gel to the scrotum.Because of the fivefold higher resorption rate of the scrotum, we used a fivefold lower dose than in the non-scrotal arm. Clinically, patients were well adjusted despite this low dose, which is reflected by the very low rate of drug adjustment. In contrast to the scrotal patches available formerly, clipping scrotal hair is not necessary when using the scrotal gel.

 

[thyronine]

I have tried combinations of injectable T Cyp + cream, injectable T Prop + cream, cream alone, in various dosages and feel no better. Low SHBG person, so in theory this should have helped. I know the combination works well for some guys.

Have you had your thyroid function assessed - labs, but also body temperature, achilles reflex and general symptoms? I never found much benefit from TRT until I got my TSH below 1, with pre-thyroid treatment levels hovering between 2.5 - 5 (fT3/4 were always 'optimal').
Hypothyroidism can cause low SHBG; like testosterone, being within range doesn't = normal.
If achieving an optimal level of free testosterone on a reasonable protocol fails to resolve symptoms, the symptoms aren't related to testosterone. People waste years tweaking their dose, frequency, administration method, etc, trying to resolve symptoms that aren't related to testosterone because they view TRT as a panacea. However, exogenous testosterone will only fix symptoms that originate as a by-product of low testosterone; most issues attributed to low testosterone aren't actually caused by low testosterone. Just my 2c.

 

[ERO]

Have you had your thyroid function assessed - labs, but also body temperature, achilles reflex and general symptoms? I never found much benefit from TRT until I got my TSH below 1, with pre-thyroid treatment levels hovering between 2.5 - 5 (fT3/4 were always 'optimal').
Hypothyroidism can cause low SHBG; like testosterone, being within range doesn't = normal.
If achieving an optimal level of free testosterone on a reasonable protocol fails to resolve symptoms, the symptoms aren't related to testosterone. People waste years tweaking their dose, frequency, administration method, etc, trying to resolve symptoms that aren't related to testosterone because they view TRT as a panacea. However, exogenous testosterone will only fix symptoms that originate as a by-product of low testosterone; most issues attributed to low testosterone aren't actually caused by low testosterone. Just my 2c.

Yes, I was on various doses of T3, T4, both T3 and T4 and finally Amour Thyroid via Defy Medical and none of it made any difference that I could feel so I am off thyroid completely now - which feels the same as when I was taking 120mg of Amour daily.

 

[Tman]

Have you had your thyroid function assessed - labs, but also body temperature, achilles reflex and general symptoms? I never found much benefit from TRT until I got my TSH below 1, with pre-thyroid treatment levels hovering between 2.5 - 5 (fT3/4 were always 'optimal').
Hypothyroidism can cause low SHBG; like testosterone, being within range doesn't = normal.
If achieving an optimal level of free testosterone on a reasonable protocol fails to resolve symptoms, the symptoms aren't related to testosterone. People waste years tweaking their dose, frequency, administration method, etc, trying to resolve symptoms that aren't related to testosterone because they view TRT as a panacea. However, exogenous testosterone will only fix symptoms that originate as a by-product of low testosterone; most issues attributed to low testosterone aren't actually caused by low testosterone. Just my 2c.

Well...how did you get your tsh down?

 

[engineer]

Cortisol is low but follows the normal curve pattern, I assume it is suppressed because of testosterone treatment long-term. I had also slept terribly the night before the test. Since then I've tried adding hydrocortisone and felt horrible as well, so I don't think cortisol is the issue. On both T4 and HC, my HRV dipped a lot and my body showed signs of stress at night (according to Oura ring) so I backed off both and felt better after a washout period.

Could you please elaborate on this?? My cortisol is low... ultra low to the point that I only wake up after 2PM. Hydrocortisone helps a lot but at what dose does it become “dangerous”?

 

[eyeheartny]

Could you please elaborate on this?? My cortisol is low... ultra low to the point that I only wake up after 2PM. Hydrocortisone helps a lot but at what dose does it become “dangerous”?

It sounds like you need some expert help on that, and I am not that expert. If you're having trouble waking up that late I'd seek medical attention and help-- that sounds really difficult and could be related to serious endocrine issues. Also, dosing of HC and those protocols is way outside of my knowledge and I would not want to lead you astray. I would strongly recommend getting medical attention on all this as this sounds different than the issues I was contending with.

 

[engineer]

It sounds like you need some expert help on that, and I am not that expert. If you're having trouble waking up that late I'd seek medical attention and help-- that sounds really difficult and could be related to serious endocrine issues. Also, dosing of HC and those protocols is way outside of my knowledge and I would not want to lead you astray. I would strongly recommend getting medical attention on all this as this sounds different than the issues I was contending with.

Thanks for your reply!

My thyroid numbers are great, my Test levels are high, but I am still sleepy.... I have been asking for help to the medical community for 4 years with no one listening to me other than prescribing stimulants/antidepressants. And they didn't help unfortunately.

However, Dr. Saya (from Defy Medical) put me on a trial dose of hydrocortisone this year (10mg/day) after seeing my cortisol so low in blood work and correlating to my symptoms. It helped instantaneously. I called Defy and requested an additional dose so now I take 10mg, twice a day. So I am being helped out.

The question was more related to my lack of understanding of how increasing testosterone levels causes severe fatigue in me.....

 

[eyeheartny]

Thanks for your reply!

My thyroid numbers are great, my Test levels are high, but I am still sleepy.... I have been asking for help to the medical community for 4 years with no one listening to me other than prescribing stimulants/antidepressants. And they didn't help unfortunately.

However, Dr. Saya (from Defy Medical) put me on a trial dose of hydrocortisone this year (10mg/day) after seeing my cortisol so low in blood work and correlating to my symptoms. It helped instantaneously. I called Defy and requested an additional dose so now I take 10mg, twice a day. So I am being helped out.

The question was more related to my lack of understanding of how increasing testosterone levels causes severe fatigue in me.....

Once again, it's great that HC works for you. That said, no one can provide an explanation as to your stuff without more information. I'd suggest starting a new thread of your own with bloodwork, relevant medical history, what interventions you've described, etc. I am still not sure what you're asking of me in response to my comment about my diurnal cortisol rhythm, but I am confident that at this point you'll want your own thread to be able to share info and get more helpful responses. As an example, testosterone can interfere with the HPA axis and maybe your "high" testosterone levels are too high FOR YOU. Without knowing baseline levels, what protocols you've tried, etc, no one can help you. Start your thread and see what happens!