Will it always be a roller coaster?

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

I have been on it for three years, I was on Andro gel for a year and everything was 5x5, and then I was refered to an internist who was going to fix me with clomid. He jacked me up and I have been back tracking since. Your in good hands here, listen to them.

Yes. Nothing like people that have been through it. It can really suck at times getting this dialed in. Lately I've been crazy hyper sexual. Which seems funny but my wife will soon get tired of this. Plus in my past (18 years ago) I had issues with this subject (porn etc.). That stuff is so addictive I never want to go there again. So this crazy libido has me scared as silly as that may sound...

 

[blackebob]

I dont know what the definition of hyper sexual translates to, but I have sex daily, and I am not the only one here. I also dont see any end of it in sight. My kids are raised though so it helps.

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

I dont know what the definition of hyper sexual translates to, but I have sex daily, and I am not the only one here. I also dont see any end of it in sight. My kids are raised though so it helps.

My kids are adults now too (18 and 20). But for example if on a scale of 1-10 with ten being super sexual. I normally operate around a level 8 (not bad ah!). But lately it's like sexual addiction mode like 30 (on a 1-10) lol. This has to pass. No way can it stay like this. I know it seems hilarious, and I'm laughing too. But for me with previous issues with porn etc. this is a little scary. Bob I have fought/sparred over 10,000 submission grappling matches (and many professional) over the last 20 years and my fight with sexual addiction (been sober 18yrs) was more grueling then all of them combined. It use to hi-jack my mind. Sorry to get off on a tangent but this monster has a history with me and I guess that's why I'm concerned. I'll keep it in check. Thanks and have a Good night Bob

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

Hi Guys,

Would really appreciate some input/advice

Here is my first blood (taken just before injection) lab work on my latest 7 week protocol of 50mg Tcyp 2x per week. No AI or HCG yet. Been on TRT for 13 weeks. I have an appointment with Defy soon but I was looking for input. Please also read my mood summary (attached) as to what I'm still concerned about. Started TRT with a pre T 152ng/dc level. Got it up to 300 with hard work but still to low. Hence, I started TRT 13 weeks ago with the usual 200mg every 2 weeks (per urologist), then I changed to 1x per week, until you guys helped me out with a better protocol every 3.5 days. Not sure why my mood isn't better more consistently. Seems better before my next shot. I do know that when I started injecting more frequently each time the anxiety waves were getting less and less severe.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Moogie]

So, all I can say is when I started an AI, all of my anxiety left.

I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder four years ago, when, now I know for me, it was Low T.

I am now off of Ativan because AI fixed anxiety issues. One issue that I am trying to fix is I am overweight, which more than likely, causes me to aromatase more - once I have lost my excess weight, I think I can drop or reduce AI.

My E2 pre-TRT was high with low SHBG.

I just did my 2nd 6 week bloods this morning and we will see how I am doing.

Without the AI - I would have chucked my bottle of Test C. It caused great waves of anxiety, as well as did HCG - I stopped HCG because of it.

Now, I take .125 AI every day - once in the morning and once at night. No more hard breathing - no more anxiety - no more anything. I feel pretty good.

Have you thought about taking an AI just to test the waters? My anxiety and heart palpations are gone. Empower’s webpage concerning AI states within 2 hours it is in your blood. And I can attest I notice a nice change afterwards a few hours later.

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

So, all I can say is when I started an AI, all of my anxiety left.

I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder four years ago, when, now I know for me, it was Low T.

I am now off of Ativan because AI fixed anxiety issues. One issue that I am trying to fix is I am overweight, which more than likely, causes me to aromatase more - once I have lost my excess weight, I think I can drop or reduce AI.

My E2 pre-TRT was high with low SHBG.

I just did my 2nd 6 week bloods this morning and we will see how I am doing.

Without the AI - I would have chucked my bottle of Test C. It caused great waves of anxiety, as well as did HCG - I stopped HCG because of it.

Now, I take .125 AI every day - once in the morning and once at night. No more hard breathing - no more anxiety - no more anything. I feel pretty good.

Have you thought about taking an AI just to test the waters? My anxiety and heart palpations are gone. Empower’s webpage concerning AI states within 2 hours it is in your blood. And I can attest I notice a nice change afterwards a few hours later.

Thanks Moogie!

I'm not opposed to an AI if I really need it. Maybe I do. Like you said, maybe I can drop it later if I lose 20lbs...

 

[fifty]

So, all I can say is when I started an AI, all of my anxiety left.

I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder four years ago, when, now I know for me, it was Low T.

I am now off of Ativan because AI fixed anxiety issues. One issue that I am trying to fix is I am overweight, which more than likely, causes me to aromatase more - once I have lost my excess weight, I think I can drop or reduce AI.

My E2 pre-TRT was high with low SHBG.

I just did my 2nd 6 week bloods this morning and we will see how I am doing.

Without the AI - I would have chucked my bottle of Test C. It caused great waves of anxiety, as well as did HCG - I stopped HCG because of it.

Now, I take .125 AI every day - once in the morning and once at night. No more hard breathing - no more anxiety - no more anything. I feel pretty good.

Have you thought about taking an AI just to test the waters? My anxiety and heart palpations are gone. Empower’s webpage concerning AI states within 2 hours it is in your blood. And I can attest I notice a nice change afterwards a few hours later.

How much AI is that per week?

 

[Moogie]

How much AI is that per week?

Well...great question. At this time, I am doing .25 ED. I took bloods today and will see what my E2 Sensitive looks like from Quest while on this protocol.

But my post stressed the fact that I came to TRT with a General Anxiety Disorder diagnosis with high pre-TRT E2. Just to note - GAD symptoms are gone - no more Lexapro or Ativan

But, I only take a total of 84ml per week of Test C. That is 12ml per day (ED). With low SHBG, I am able to maintain a high FT. As the Doctors on this site stress that everyone is different - that is the truth. I have a very unique protocol. And I can’t touch HCG - I tried for several weeks - but it wreaks havoc on my system. I get it, that’s a lot of AI - but without it, I would be forced to stop TRT as the anxiety grows with Test C.

 

[fifty]

Weren’t you prescribed .125 eod and were taking 0 because you were afraid of sending e2 too low? Now you’re taking .25 ed?

 

[Moogie]

Weren’t you prescribed .125 eod and were taking 0 because you were afraid of sending e2 too low? Now you’re taking .25 ed?

Close - I was prescribed .125 EOD and was scared to death to start because I thought the world would end - yeah, I read too many posts here about “crashing” - but still had issues with heart palpitations - anxiety - stress - feeling terrible. I increased to .25 EOD but found out that on the off days the E2 symptoms would come back. So I tried ED .125 after morning shot. Things went better, but around 7pm heart palpations would come and when I ended up in bed around 9pm I could not sleep because of E2 symptoms. I would take .125 around 7pm and I would sleep through the night without any symptoms.

I am truly convinced while on this 10 week journey that we are all so different. What one must to do survive many times is different from another.

Another note - I currently weigh 279lbs - down from 306lbs. I have a muscular frame but at 50 years old - I have many extra pounds to lose. As I continue on TRT - my goal is to drop the extra weight and level out around 220lbs.

I honestly believe my extra weight is causing me to aromatase. When I get to my goal - E2 and AI may not be an issue.

 

[fifty]

Ok. Makes sense

 

[MarkM]

Hi JJ, hope all is well. I took a look at your labs and thought I would offer my opinion, which may differ somewhat from others. First, on the basics of the labs, keep an I on your Glucose. it isn't dangerously high or anything but I rather see it be lower. Have you had your A1C checked lately? It gives you more of an average of what your sugar is over the last 3 to 4 months and is really a better indicator of your Glucose. The "Glucose" showing on the lab work is basically just a snapshot of what it is at that day and time. Like everything else it will fluctuate based on what we are eating and our water intake.

Sodium is borderline high so keep an eye on your salt intake.

LDL is real good but your triglycerides are on the high side even though just above the top of the range. High triglycerides are worse for you than high LDL. Your HDL is low and TRT can effect it and bring it down a little bit.

Your TT T and Free T look good for being at trough but they could both be a little high. I'd probably like to see your Free T up closer to the top of the range, around 24. That will mean your TT will also go up but the important reading is the Free T as you already know. Your E2 looks good to me at 30.4 with a top of the range at 35. But it will go up some if you increase your Free T. E follows T. Are you feeling any high E2 symptoms? I don't think the way you are feeling in the "mood" summary is E2 related. It seems many of those feelings you had before starting TRT.

You have good SHBG (almost middle of the range) so you don't have too much of it binding up your T. I'd be curious what your DHT levels are. Have you ever had it tested? I don't see a real problem there and I wouldn't suggest you run get it tested because it is about $90. I do think men should have it tested occasionally or at least once to get a baseline or see where it is. It is a very strong male hormone, down stream from testosterone, but much more powerful in many regards.

Your DHEA is low and I believe it should be much higher. You may have low Pregnenolone and Progesterone. These could be where the mood issues. Some believe the best way to back fill the pathways is through HCG. I believe there is truth to that for some people. I tried HCG and don't believe it helped me back fill the pathways. That was confirmed by test results that showed no increase in DHEA, Pregnenolone, or Progesterone after 6 months on HCG. But it does work for many people. I did not see any improvement in my labs and sense of well being and mood until I started supplementing with DHEA and Pregnenolone. My DHEA was similar to yours at 64 and my Pregnenolone did not register nor did my Progesterone register. Basically they were zero. On my last blood work in September my DHEA was 351 (344 top of range), Pregnenolone was 101 (150 top of range), and Progesterone was 0.4 (0.5 top of range). I have always been a hard charger, not anxiety, but always going 100 MPH. While I can still put a foot in someone's tail end, I have never felt this calm since I can remember.

Some say Pregnenolone test can be inconclusive and inaccurate. That may be true but I know that my test came back twice with goose eggs for Preg and Prog and now I have substantially high results and I know how I feel.

Some people can not take DHEA because it can raise your E2 in men. Although it can convert down different hormonal pathways, it has a strong affinity to convert to E2 in men. Pregnenolone, considered the grandmother of all hormones, would be a good way to go. Below is the hormonal cascade.

If it were me, I would probably bump my testosterone dose a bit. I would try 65 mg E3.5 days. That's a 30 mg increase per week but your 100 mg is really on the low side. I would also either try HCG (250IU to 500IU twice a week) or try supplementing with Pregnenolone or DHEA, or both. I would probably start off low at 10 mg per day and increase depending on how you start feeling. I am taking 25 mg of DHEA and 25 mg of Pregnenolone at night (sublingual).

I would not take an AI unless you had real symptoms of high E2 but if you needed an AI I would take it in the smallest dose possible that would work for me. I do not take an AI but would if I had to. Some say just reduce your testosterone and you won't have to worry about taking an AI. I agree with that in part, but sometimes you need to raise your testosterone to optimize how you feel and in doing so it raises your E2 just a little too high and a small does of an AI would eliminate the high E2 and keep your testosterone optimized.

Many of the prominent doctors in the TRT field recommend Pregnenolone and DHEA for a reason. Several doctors on the TRT Rountable recommend 100 mg of Pregnenolone a day.

I should stop now. I did not realize I was rambling on so much.

 

[fifty]

Is it worth testing pregnenolone and progesterone? Is one test more useful than the other? I have never tested pregenenolone but get subjective benefit when I take it. I've heard the test for it is not the most reliable???

Edit: Lifeextension has a male hormone add on panel for $120 which does DHT & pregnenolone.

 

[MarkM]

For most people it is likely not worth testing. I had a desire to know because of how I felt. I was optimized on my protocol but still felt I was missing that feeling of well being people talked about on HCG or supplementing with Pregnenolone and/or DHEA. So I have tested Preg and Prog several times but I have the financial means to do so.

I would say if people feel great then I would not test for it and I may or may not supplement with it either. It's an individual thing. I had heard the test was not so accurate as well. Twice I tested blank on Preg and Prog. Now my test show good numbers from the same lab and I can feel the difference.

Although pricey, that is a good price comparatively speaking for those two tests. One could easily spend upwards of $160 for those two tests.

 

[Gman86]

For most people it is likely not worth testing. I had a desire to know because of how I felt. I was optimized on my protocol but still felt I was missing that feeling of well being people talked about on HCG or supplementing with Pregnenolone and/or DHEA. So I have tested Preg and Prog several times but I have the financial means to do so.

I would say if people feel great then I would not test for it and I may or may not supplement with it either. It's an individual thing. I had heard the test was not so accurate as well. Twice I tested blank on Preg and Prog. Now my test show good numbers from the same lab and I can feel the difference.

Although pricey, that is a good price comparatively speaking for those two tests. One could easily spend upwards of $160 for those two tests.

So you didn’t change anything or add anything from when you tested zero and when you showed good numbers?

 

[MarkM]

No, I stopped taking HCG and started supplementing with sublingual DHEA and Pregnenolone, 25 mg each, each night. It is then that I saw my numbers go from non-existent to much improved.

 

[Gman86]

No, I stopped taking HCG and started supplementing with sublingual DHEA and Pregnenolone, 25 mg each, each night. It is then that I saw my numbers go from non-existent to much improved.

Did your E2 go up when you implemented the DHEA and Pregnenolone?

 

[MarkM]

Surprisingly not. I thought it probably would. I've tested my E2 five times this year and it bounces between 29.9 and 35.3. I'm going to have new blood work on Wednesday and I'll be checking it again.

 

[Jiu Jitsu Dude]

Hi JJ, hope all is well. I took a look at your labs and thought I would offer my opinion, which may differ somewhat from others. First, on the basics of the labs, keep an I on your Glucose. it isn't dangerously high or anything but I rather see it be lower. Have you had your A1C checked lately? It gives you more of an average of what your sugar is over the last 3 to 4 months and is really a better indicator of your Glucose. The "Glucose" showing on the lab work is basically just a snapshot of what it is at that day and time. Like everything else it will fluctuate based on what we are eating and our water intake.

Sodium is borderline high so keep an eye on your salt intake.

LDL is real good but your triglycerides are on the high side even though just above the top of the range. High triglycerides are worse for you than high LDL. Your HDL is low and TRT can effect it and bring it down a little bit.

Your TT T and Free T look good for being at trough but they could both be a little high. I'd probably like to see your Free T up closer to the top of the range, around 24. That will mean your TT will also go up but the important reading is the Free T as you already know. Your E2 looks good to me at 30.4 with a top of the range at 35. But it will go up some if you increase your Free T. E follows T. Are you feeling any high E2 symptoms? I don't think the way you are feeling in the "mood" summary is E2 related. It seems many of those feelings you had before starting TRT.

You have good SHBG (almost middle of the range) so you don't have too much of it binding up your T. I'd be curious what your DHT levels are. Have you ever had it tested? I don't see a real problem there and I wouldn't suggest you run get it tested because it is about $90. I do think men should have it tested occasionally or at least once to get a baseline or see where it is. It is a very strong male hormone, down stream from testosterone, but much more powerful in many regards.

Your DHEA is low and I believe it should be much higher. You may have low Pregnenolone and Progesterone. These could be where the mood issues. Some believe the best way to back fill the pathways is through HCG. I believe there is truth to that for some people. I tried HCG and don't believe it helped me back fill the pathways. That was confirmed by test results that showed no increase in DHEA, Pregnenolone, or Progesterone after 6 months on HCG. But it does work for many people. I did not see any improvement in my labs and sense of well being and mood until I started supplementing with DHEA and Pregnenolone. My DHEA was similar to yours at 64 and my Pregnenolone did not register nor did my Progesterone register. Basically they were zero. On my last blood work in September my DHEA was 351 (344 top of range), Pregnenolone was 101 (150 top of range), and Progesterone was 0.4 (0.5 top of range). I have always been a hard charger, not anxiety, but always going 100 MPH. While I can still put a foot in someone's tail end, I have never felt this calm since I can remember.

Some say Pregnenolone test can be inconclusive and inaccurate. That may be true but I know that my test came back twice with goose eggs for Preg and Prog and now I have substantially high results and I know how I feel.

Some people can not take DHEA because it can raise your E2 in men. Although it can convert down different hormonal pathways, it has a strong affinity to convert to E2 in men. Pregnenolone, considered the grandmother of all hormones, would be a good way to go. Below is the hormonal cascade.

View attachment 6195

If it were me, I would probably bump my testosterone dose a bit. I would try 65 mg E3.5 days. That's a 30 mg increase per week but your 100 mg is really on the low side. I would also either try HCG (250IU to 500IU twice a week) or try supplementing with Pregnenolone or DHEA, or both. I would probably start off low at 10 mg per day and increase depending on how you start feeling. I am taking 25 mg of DHEA and 25 mg of Pregnenolone at night (sublingual).

I would not take an AI unless you had real symptoms of high E2 but if you needed an AI I would take it in the smallest dose possible that would work for me. I do not take an AI but would if I had to. Some say just reduce your testosterone and you won't have to worry about taking an AI. I agree with that in part, but sometimes you need to raise your testosterone to optimize how you feel and in doing so it raises your E2 just a little too high and a small does of an AI would eliminate the high E2 and keep your testosterone optimized.

Many of the prominent doctors in the TRT field recommend Pregnenolone and DHEA for a reason. Several doctors on the TRT Rountable recommend 100 mg of Pregnenolone a day.

I should stop now. I did not realize I was rambling on so much.

Mark: Thanks a million for your thorough reply! I just got in late from traveling but I will re-read carefully. Thanks again

 

[Gman86]

Surprisingly not. I thought it probably would. I've tested my E2 five times this year and it bounces between 29.9 and 35.3. I'm going to have new blood work on Wednesday and I'll be checking it again.

That’s awesome! I’m finally very close to having my free testosterone where I want it and getting my E2 dialed in with the right dose of exemestane. My pregnenolone levels have been almost non existent while on TRT, and I have poor memory and brain fog. So I’m probably going to implement pregnenolone in my protocol eventually. Nice to know there’s a chance it might not skew E2 levels much