Why do some need a higher dose while others need a little?

[James]

There's really no reason to inject more than 2X per week "on paper" and many do fine 1X per week, which is sacrilege to say here, but true regardless. I think for those who are having issues with say E2, or elevated SHBG, smaller more frequent doses are worth a try. Subjectively, some men report feeling better on daily dose, some don't. Personally I'm with you in that I want to poke myself as little as possible, and the every 3.5 day schedule seems to work for the vast majority, and "even" the 1X per week schedule objectively and subjectively. I would be very unhappy if I needed to do it daily personally. Exactly why some need so little and others so much, has not been fully elucidated and some factors are known as others outlined already, some not. Most men, most of the time, seem to get similar responses to similar doses however.

- Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

It's interesting that some of the more frequent posters, particularly those injecting daily, chose not to comment on any of your comments. Of course in the spirit of friendly/healthy debate and to help educate those of us who are learning.

 

[Vince]

Does it really help with controlling hematocrit?

I believe it may for some. Doing daily injection and eliminating the high spiking of T, seems to help control high E2 and high HCT for some members.

 

[madman]

Hey guys,

I have noticed since being on this forum the different dosages people use depending on their base levels prior to TRT.
For instance, my base prior was 330 and I need 160mg/wk split 2x to get my levels in the 900's. Then, I see people with base levels much much lower than mine were and need less T to get them around the same T levels as me, say 100mg or 120mg/wk.
Does anyone know the reason for this? I know other meds or supplements will play a role but I can't see it affecting the out come THAT much.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572434/

I would say polymorphism of the AR (androgen) receptor and CAG repeat lengths (short or long) plays a strong role in ones responsiveness to testosterone among many other things.

Testing of ones CAG repeat length may very well be routine for all patients on trt in the near future.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572434/figure/fig2/

 

[madman]

http://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/japplphysiol.00537.2004

 

[Will Brink]

It's interesting that some of the more frequent posters, particularly those injecting daily, chose not to comment on any of your comments. Of course in the spirit of friendly/healthy debate and to help educate those of us who are learning.

Well, they may simply not feel the need to. It's not like I'm condemning the practice either and in favor of trying the schedules if the "old school" approach of 1x per week (which for some docs sadly is still not adopted and "cutting edge" to them....) if objective or subjective results not happening for a man following it. I also think people often ignore the fact that every time you poke yourself you are adding risk of infection, etc. If sterile protocols followed, a small risk to be sure, but any time we don't have to cause trauma locally and such is one less risk of any complications.

 

[Vince]

Well, they may simply not feel the need to. It's not like I'm condemning the practice either and in favor of trying the schedules if the "old school" approach of 1x per week (which for some docs sadly is still not adopted and "cutting edge" to them....) if objective or subjective results not happening for a man following it. I also think people often ignore the fact that every time you poke yourself you are adding risk of infection, etc. If sterile protocols followed, a small risk to be sure, but any time we don't have to cause trauma locally and such is one less risk of any complications.

Will are you on a TRT protocol, you may have posted this earlier but I don't remember reading it. If you are what's your protocol.

 

[Will Brink]

Will are you on a TRT protocol, you may have posted this earlier but I don't remember reading it. If you are what's your protocol.

180mg per week cyp currently.

 

[Vince]

180mg per week cyp currently.

Just one injection of 180 mg of testosterone cypionate every week, no HCG or AIs. Pretty simple protocol but if it works for you that's great.

 

[Deleted member 17030]

Does anyone ever do a dosing schedule of 1 injection every 8 days instead of the normal 1 injection every 7 day protocol?

I'm thinking of giving that a try. I realize it will be a confusing schedule as every 8 days will be a different day of the week and it increases the peak to trough by another day which is opposite of what most people do.

I think I am going to start this week and see how I feel and get labs in 6 weeks on trough day.

 

[madman]

For what reason do you want to space injection frequency every 8 days as oppose to the standard 7 day protocol?

 

[Will Brink]

Just one injection of 180 mg of testosterone cypionate every week, no HCG or AIs. Pretty simple protocol but if it works for you that's great.

No HCG, no AI, yup. I think KISS is the best approach, unless otherwise indicated. For example, a man who wants to keep fertility and nad size up, needs HCG. In my case, don't care about either, and if anything, the suppressed sperm count a plus and smaller nads make your penis look bigger.

My E2 tends to stay in a range that would not warrant an AI, and I think many have found, use of an AI often does more harm than good, and for most, E2 can be controlled via fat loss, change of schedule, etc. I know there's the debate that HCG supports some pathways suppressed by TRT, but also seems subjectively, hit or miss in how men feel, and that's one more cost and thing to worry about.

 

[Vince]

Does anyone ever do a dosing schedule of 1 injection every 8 days instead of the normal 1 injection every 7 day protocol?

I'm thinking of giving that a try. I realize it will be a confusing schedule as every 8 days will be a different day of the week and it increases the peak to trough by another day which is opposite of what most people do.

I think I am going to start this week and see how I feel and get labs in 6 weeks on trough day.

I do have a friend that injections 200 mg of testosterone cypionate every two weeks, he satisfied with that protocol.

 

[Kaliman911]

The half life of Test Cypionate is 5-8 days. So the further you go away from the half life, the further you will be at the bottom of trough. But all depends on your SHBG levels.

 

[sh1973]

Yeah my shbg stays in the 60-70 range and I’m still 700ng 10 days after injecting 100mg cypionate.

 

[madman]

No HCG, no AI, yup. I think KISS is the best approach, unless otherwise indicated. For example, a man who wants to keep fertility and nad size up, needs HCG. In my case, don't care about either, and if anything, the suppressed sperm count a plus and smaller nads make your penis look bigger.

My E2 tends to stay in a range that would not warrant an AI, and I think many have found, use of an AI often does more harm than good, and for most, E2 can be controlled via fat loss, change of schedule, etc. I know there's the debate that HCG supports some pathways suppressed by TRT, but also seems subjectively, hit or miss in how men feel, and that's one more cost and thing to worry about.

Well said Will!

What is your trough at on 180 mg/week?

What would your test levels be at during your brawny days! Picture never ceases to amaze me Mr. Brink dwarfing the SHADOW unreal.

 

[Deleted member 17030]

For what reason do you want to space injection frequency every 8 days as oppose to the standard 7 day protocol?

The entire process is such a hassle, the doctor won't listen, and the pharmacy has their rules and the insurance company theirs.

CVS Pharmacy will not refill a 28 day supply (1 month) until 3 days before the next injection, or on day 26. So you have 3 days to get to the pharmacy and get the refill before next injection. So I go to the CVS on day 28 thinking I am going to get my medicine, go home and take it, only to discover the CVS was out of Test C, and wouldn't have any more for 2 days, which later became 5 days. So then I am 5 days past due.

So if I go to 8 day cycles for injections, I should have 4 days of medicine left over at the end of each month and with CVS's 3 day grace period that gives me 7 days to get my refill on time even if they are currently out. That's the entire reason for this.

It's the same for the 84 day (3 month supply) they will only allow a refill on day 82. So in that case going to 8 days between injections I would have enough medicine left over to have 15 days to get it refilled and not possibly miss a dose.

My doctor is obtuse, he won't listen. He wants to prescribeme 10ml at a time, but CVS says my insurance will only pay for 6ml (3 month'ssupply) at one time so I ask the doctor to make the prescription for 6ml. Know what he said? He says he can't do that as the pharmacy won't pull 4ml out of a 10ml bottle and sell it like that. I try to explain to him I can get six 1MLbottles but he wont listen and insists on the 10ml amount.

So I got a 10ml prescription, CVS gave me 6Ml supply for 3 months with six 1ml bottles, I use that up and go back for the above mentioned refill to hear them tell me they don't need to call the dr for approval yet that I still have 4ml (2 month's supply) left on my original prescription but my insurance only pays for a 1 month or 3 month's supply, not 2 months so I only get a 1 month supply and have to go back again in 28 days and get the last 1ml or 1 months supply and go thru this hassle again and pay another copay.

Its starting to really become a hassle. All the dr has to do is call in a 6ml prescription with 1 refill and I see him again in 6 months as scheduled. Simple as that.

Why can't it be that easy and why can't the pharmacy have the crap in stock?

 

[Systemlord]

Pay for it yourself, then avoid the hassle.

 

[Deleted member 17030]

Pay for it yourself, then avoid the hassle.

They still wont let me refill any earlier, paying for it myself is no help with that. Besides, I have bi-weekly payroll deductions for my medical care, they need to pay for it.

 

[madman]

The entire process is such a hassle, the doctor won't listen, and the pharmacy has their rules and the insurance company theirs.

CVS Pharmacy will not refill a 28 day supply (1 month) until 3 days before the next injection, or on day 26. So you have 3 days to get to the pharmacy and get the refill before next injection. So I go to the CVS on day 28 thinking I am going to get my medicine, go home and take it, only to discover the CVS was out of Test C, and wouldn't have any more for 2 days, which later became 5 days. So then I am 5 days past due.

So if I go to 8 day cycles for injections, I should have 4 days of medicine left over at the end of each month and with CVS's 3 day grace period that gives me 7 days to get my refill on time even if they are currently out. That's the entire reason for this.

It's the same for the 84 day (3 month supply) they will only allow a refill on day 82. So in that case going to 8 days between injections I would have enough medicine left over to have 15 days to get it refilled and not possibly miss a dose.

My doctor is obtuse, he won't listen. He wants to prescribeme 10ml at a time, but CVS says my insurance will only pay for 6ml (3 month'ssupply) at one time so I ask the doctor to make the prescription for 6ml. Know what he said? He says he can't do that as the pharmacy won't pull 4ml out of a 10ml bottle and sell it like that. I try to explain to him I can get six 1MLbottles but he wont listen and insists on the 10ml amount.

So I got a 10ml prescription, CVS gave me 6Ml supply for 3 months with six 1ml bottles, I use that up and go back for the above mentioned refill to hear them tell me they don't need to call the dr for approval yet that I still have 4ml (2 month's supply) left on my original prescription but my insurance only pays for a 1 month or 3 month's supply, not 2 months so I only get a 1 month supply and have to go back again in 28 days and get the last 1ml or 1 months supply and go thru this hassle again and pay another copay.

Its starting to really become a hassle. All the dr has to do is call in a 6ml prescription with 1 refill and I see him again in 6 months as scheduled. Simple as that.

Why can't it be that easy and why can't the pharmacy have the crap in stock?

Is the 10ml vial (cypionate) you are prescribed 100mg/ml strength and what is your injection protocol (dose/injection frequency)?

I live in Canada and am prescribed a 5ml vial Delatestryl (enanthate) 200mg/ml strength and I am injecting 150 mg/week (75mg every 3.5 days) so basically the vial would last me 6 weeks with .5ml (100mg) left over. Vials are always usually slightly overfilled by the manufacturer due to slight loss of medication from the standard 22-25 gauge needles they think most people are using (lol) and the needles are not fixed as most would draw with a 22 gauge and inject with a 25 so switching needles causes a slight loss of medication.

This issue is remedied as you know by using a fixed low dead space syringe such as a BD U-100 insulin syringe (27-31 gauge needle) so one should end up with less waste.

When I first started my trt the label on my vial from the pharmacy said .75 ml weekly (150 mg/week) and prescription could be refilled every 28 days. I made one vial last 6 weeks so I was basically only using 4.5 ml (900mg) with .5ml (100mg) left over and maybe slightly more due to overfill by manufacturer.

I would wait until the end of the 6 week to get my refill where as I should have been getting a new refill roughly at the end of the 4th week due to the new 28 day refill because of the so called chance of contamination of a punctured vial after 28 days.

I now pick up my refill at the end of every 4th week so I am only using 3ml (600mg) out of the 5ml vial (1000mg) and have 2ml (400mg) left over every month as the pharmacy is saying that after puncturing the new vial after 28 days a new one should be started due to possibility of contamination as the laws have changed now both in the US and CANADA regarding 28 days as the length of time a punctured vial is safe (so they say lol)! Guess they expect one to throw out the rest., what a joke.

 

[madman]

Is the 10ml vial (cypionate) you are prescribed 100mg/ml strength and what is your injection protocol (dose/injection frequency)?

I live in Canada and am prescribed a 5ml vial Delatestryl (enanthate) 200mg/ml strength and I am injecting 150 mg/week (75mg every 3.5 days) so basically the vial would last me 6 weeks with .5ml (100mg) left over. Vials are always usually slightly overfilled by the manufacturer due to slight loss of medication from the standard 22-25 gauge needles they think most people are using (lol) and the needles are not fixed as most would draw with a 22 gauge and inject with a 25 so switching needles causes a slight loss of medication.

This issue is remedied as you know by using a fixed low dead space syringe such as a BD U-100 insulin syringe (27-31 gauge needle) so one should end up with less waste.

When I first started my trt the label on my vial from the pharmacy said .75 ml weekly (150 mg/week) and prescription could be refilled every 28 days. I made one vial last 6 weeks so I was basically only using 4.5 ml (900mg) with .5ml (100mg) left over and maybe slightly more due to overfill by manufacturer.

I would wait until the end of the 6 week to get my refill where as I should have been getting a new refill roughly at the end of the 4th week due to the new 28 day refill because of the so called chance of contamination of a punctured vial after 28 days.

I now pick up my refill at the end of every 4th week so I am only using 3ml (600mg) out of the 5ml vial (1000mg) and have 2ml (400mg) left over every month as the pharmacy is saying that after puncturing the new vial after 28 days a new one should be started due to possibility of contamination as the laws have changed now both in the US and CANADA regarding 28 days as the length of time a punctured vial is safe (so they say lol)! Guess they expect one to throw out the rest., what a joke.

Luckily OHIP covers my 28 day refill!