What's the minimum weight training to maintain muscle

[DragonBits]

I am looking to just maintain my current strength while doing cardio most every day.

I am thinking once a week weightlifting to maintain strength,but I have seen some articles that say once a month can work?

Any opinions / experience on doing the minimum for weightlifting?

 

[Nashtide]

Your thread title say "muscle" and the body says "strength". Two very different things.

 

[Vince]

I would think once a month wouldn't work, I'm sure once a week would be okay. My issue would be the soreness I would have to deal with. When I miss a workout and try to make it up on my next schedule workout I'm super sore for the next few days.

 

[DragonBits]

I would think once a month wouldn't work, I'm sure once a week would be okay. My issue would be the soreness I would have to deal with. When I miss a workout and try to make it up on my next schedule workout I'm super sore for the next few days.

Have you experienced this lately?

I ask because I think it's unusual to get sore after missing only one workout. A couple of years ago I was getting extremely sore, so much so it was almost funny. I hadn't worked out for a while, but I believe it was also because at the time I was low on magnesium. It seemed to add to the pain.

We can't avoid DOMS, but as we know, if we work out frequently it isn't too bad.

I guess I will see what happens tomorrow, it has been 6 days since my last weightlifting session, I had been bike riding most of those days.

Today would have been a good day to ride, but I had been putting on 12-20 miles a day and needed a break. But I don't like to ride too long if I work my legs the day before.

 

[Airborne Warrior]

When bed-bound muscle atrophy is very significant within just one week. Conducting cardio, even by just thrusting your arms backwards and forwards during running would slow the process down in the upper body but obviously would not stop the muscles atrophying if they are not put under the stresses lifting weights provides.

A once a week full body workout would be sufficient though it is all relative to your previous training regime and how much muscle you are carrying at present. If you've smashed the weights four times weekly for the last 3 years to get where you are it's highly unlikely that a once weekly workout would be able to maintain current mass as the body is put under less stress. Certainly hypertrophy would not continue.

 

[Vince Carter]

I'd think if you incorporated a few sets each day for perhaps two body parts would be sufficient to maintain. Some one looking at this joke of a monthly thing that was suggested is just looking for an excuse to work A LOT less than is needed.
You could theorize that being on T will give a part to maintaining in and of itself. I'd still hit each body part once per week just cut the sets to 3-5 and increase reps to ~15.

 

[DragonBits]

When bed-bound muscle atrophy is very significant within just one week. Conducting cardio, even by just thrusting your arms backwards and forwards during running would slow the process down in the upper body but obviously would not stop the muscles atrophying if they are not put under the stresses lifting weights provides.

A once a week full body workout would be sufficient though it is all relative to your previous training regime and how much muscle you are carrying at present. If you've smashed the weights four times weekly for the last 3 years to get where you are it's highly unlikely that a once weekly workout would be able to maintain current mass as the body is put under less stress. Certainly hypertrophy would not continue.

I don't think I could do 4 times weeks, not if it involved the same muscles. It's just not enough time to recover. I used to be able to do weight training every other day, but I was 35 and only doing 2 sets.

If I really "smash" the weights it takes 3-4 days for me to recover.

No one is suggesting bed bound, I agree, muscle atrophy is significant.

On the other hand, people taking high doses of testosterone gain in strength and muscle size without any exercise. NOTE: Not bed bound, and of course if you train and take testosterone you get a biggest gains.

 

[JimBob]

https://renaissanceperiodization.com/hypertrophy-training-guide-central-hub/

 

[Vince Carter]

On the other hand, people taking high doses of testosterone gain in strength and muscle size without any exercise.

No.

 

[MarkM]

No.

Vince Carter is absolutely right. I know individuals on TRT that were skinny and scrawny prior to TRT and those that were overweight prior to their TRT regimen. Their life style did not change. They remained predominantly sedentary and have not worked out or engaged in any type of exercise and their body composition has not changed at all. They thought, like many do, that they can get on TRT and magically they will lose weight and put on a bunch of muscle mass. They've never heard of "No pain, no gain."

 

[DragonBits]

No.

Is this study, they seem to disagree with you:

------------------------------------------------------
The men in the testosterone groups had significant increases in the cross-sectional areas of the triceps and the quadriceps (Table 4); the group assigned to testosterone without exercise had a significantly greater increase in the cross-sectional area of the quadriceps than the placebo-alone group, and the testosterone-plus-exercise group had greater increases in quadriceps and triceps area than either the testosterone-alone or the placebo-plus-exercise group (P<0.05).

MUSCLE STRENGTH
Muscle strength in the bench-press and the squatting exercises did not change significantly over the 10-week period in the group assigned to placebo with no exercise. The men in the testosterone-alone and placebo-plus-exercise groups had significant increases in the one-repetition maximal weights lifted in the squatting exercises, averaging 19 percent and 21 percent, respectively (Table 4 and Figure 1). Similarly, mean bench-press strength increased in these two groups by 10 percent and 11 percent, respectively.


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

What am I missing here? Testosterone alone without exercise increases strength and muscle size. Note I did say "high"dose testosterone.

 

[Mountain Man]

No way you keep muscle once per month. If you don’t like weights and lifting, then consider other resistance work. Bands can give a great workout, as can bodyweight training. A simple pull up and pushup routine every other day won’t kill you and won’t take up your time. If you bike competitively that’s one thing, if you want overall health then ditching resistance work is a big mistake. Muscle mass is an insurance policy against aging. If you don’t like lifting then find some resistance work you will do, but don’t kid yourself about once per month lifting.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

What is the aversion to working out regularly? It seems like an unrealistic desire of something for nothing.

I understand you have gotten tired and sore muscles, but why not modify the routine until you dial in an amount of exercise several times a week that does not put you in the gutter?

Trying to get by and be healthy without exercising seems a counterproductive and futile pursuit.

I am VERY familiar with these problems. Statins did a number on my muscles, I found out and got off them in 2015 and I never regained the exercise ability and recovery I had previous to that damage. That said, reducing exercise to a sub minimal level does not work. I walk a tightrope trying to exercise enough without putting myself back into a catabolic state. At this point I know pretty well when I am approaching that level but sometimes overshoot and need to recover for the better part of a week if I overdo it. But if I don't exercise, it is worse. Energy, mood/attitude and physicality plummet. Trying to get away with some minimum doesn't work.

Edit: You also mentioned working out 4x/week, "smashing it" causing too much recovery time plus cardio. I also relate to this. There come times in life when your older body indeed does not have the ability it used to, and prioritizing recovery trumps pushing harder. Yes, you have to eventually cut back on amount of exercise and balance one form of exercise with the other, and needed recovery time.

 

[DragonBits]

What is the aversion to working out regularly? It seems like an unrealistic desire of something for nothing.

I understand you have gotten tired and sore muscles, but why not modify the routine until you dial in an amount of exercise several times a week that does not put you in the gutter?

Trying to get by and be healthy without exercising seems a counterproductive and futile pursuit.

I am VERY familiar with these problems. Statins did a number on my muscles, I found out and got off them in 2015 and I never regained the exercise ability and recovery I had previous to that damage. That said, reducing exercise to a sub minimal level does not work. I walk a tightrope trying to exercise enough without putting myself back into a catabolic state. At this point I know pretty well when I am approaching that level but sometimes overshoot and need to recover for the better part of a week if I overdo it. But if I don't exercise, it is worse. Energy, mood/attitude and physicality plummet. Trying to get away with some minimum doesn't work.

Edit: You also mentioned working out 4x/week, "smashing it" causing too much recovery time plus cardio. I also relate to this. There come times in life when your older body indeed does not have the ability it used to, and prioritizing recovery trumps pushing harder. Yes, you have to eventually cut back on amount of exercise and balance one form of exercise with the other, and needed recovery time.

I don't think you read my starting post. I am not trying to avoid working out, though I did point out what with supraphysiological levels of testosterone you could grown muscle / strength without any exercise.

I want to do a lot of cardio at least 5-6 days a week. I didn't state it, but I was hoping to burn about 1000+ calories, and that would be about 2 hours of biking a day. Mostly just to lose weight, and I enjoy the cardio.

I had been focusing mostly on weight lifting, but I can't really do both as a lot of weightlifting focusing on my legs would really hurt the biking. BUT I don't want to lose a lot of strength. No doubt my quad muscle would stay in shape, that is the main muscle in biking.

Maybe what I will try is weight training upper body, mid body twice a week while avoiding any weight lifting that targets my glutes / quads only doing those when I know I won't be out biking for a couple of days. Like too much rain. As long as i am biking, in winter I will switch over to running on a treadmill, assuming I don't have a knee problem doing that.

IMO no one can do a heavy full body routine 4 days a week without getting in to overtraining. Now if you do some sort of split routine, that is different.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

Thanks for the reply. I get it. Yes I did misinterpret somewhat. Good luck sorting out your own balance with it.

 

[Vettester Chris]

No way you keep muscle once per month. If you don’t like weights and lifting, then consider other resistance work. Bands can give a great workout, as can bodyweight training. A simple pull up and pushup routine every other day won’t kill you and won’t take up your time. If you bike competitively that’s one thing, if you want overall health then ditching resistance work is a big mistake. Muscle mass is an insurance policy against aging. If you don’t like lifting then find some resistance work you will do, but don’t kid yourself about once per month lifting.

I agree with this 100%! Well said!

 

[DragonBits]

FWIW: The article I read about once a month.

I think they were being a bit disingenuous since they say you can exercise each body part once a month without saying how many body parts they are talking about. Off hand, I can think of 10 body parts, Chest, Arms, Cardio (heart) Back, Shoulders. Legs, Abs, Neck, Shoulders, Neck.

I don't think once a month for a total body work out would work.

However, Mike Mentzer who recommended HIT training with at least 4-7 days of rest and in some cases 10-14 days.

I prefer 3-5 days rest.

So I do think longer rest period between bouts of intense HIIT type weightlifting is important. this is a section from the interview with MM.

However, I was only looking at maintaining strength, not in a building phase. Also, I think the older you are the quicker you lose your conditioning.

===================================================
M.M. I firmly believe that, in terms of practical necessity, I've "perfected" high-intensity training theory and application. I started out training my clients using Arthur Jones' application of 12-20 sets per bodypart with my clients. No one made progress, and many regressed. I knew the problem wasn't undertraining; it had to be overtraining. So I cut the sets back to seven to nine sets three days a week and some made minimal progress for while, but hit a plateau soon thereafter. At this point, I was in a quandary. Again, I knew the problem wasn't undertaining, but, how could it be that less training was required?

It actually kinda scared me for a brief time. How could it be that I was discovering a radically different application of high-intensity than Jones and everyone else? At one time I actually thought Jones was infallible, that he was so incredibly smart,he had to be right. He was basically correct with the theory: To be productive, exercise must be intense, brief and infrequent. Where he was wrong was on the application of the theory. I kept reducing the volume and frequency of my clients training until, finally, they were performing only two to four sets per workout once every four to seven, and in some cases every 10 - 14 days. The volume and frequency requirements of any given individual depend on his innate recovery ability, with individual recovery ability, like all genetic traits, being expressed across a very broad range.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mminter.htm

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Debate This: Train Once A Month For Massive Muscles!

How often to train? That is the question! There are dark rumors afloat; being whispered but never dared shouted. Read on if you would like to learn the truth about training frequency and see if you agree or not. I have also included a sample program...

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jamesst2.htm

 

[Mountain Man]

FWIW: The article I read about once a month.

I think they were being a bit disingenuous since they say you can exercise each body part once a month without saying how many body parts they are talking about. Off hand, I can think of 10 body parts, Chest, Arms, Cardio (heart) Back, Shoulders. Legs, Abs, Neck, Shoulders, Neck.

I don't think once a month for a total body work out would work.

However, Mike Mentzer who recommended HIT training with at least 4-7 days of rest and in some cases 10-14 days.

I prefer 3-5 days rest.

So I do think longer rest period between bouts of intense HIIT type weightlifting is important. this is a section from the interview with MM.

However, I was only looking at maintaining strength, not in a building phase. Also, I think the older you are the quicker you lose your conditioning.

===================================================
M.M. I firmly believe that, in terms of practical necessity, I've "perfected" high-intensity training theory and application. I started out training my clients using Arthur Jones' application of 12-20 sets per bodypart with my clients. No one made progress, and many regressed. I knew the problem wasn't undertraining; it had to be overtraining. So I cut the sets back to seven to nine sets three days a week and some made minimal progress for while, but hit a plateau soon thereafter. At this point, I was in a quandary. Again, I knew the problem wasn't undertaining, but, how could it be that less training was required?

It actually kinda scared me for a brief time. How could it be that I was discovering a radically different application of high-intensity than Jones and everyone else? At one time I actually thought Jones was infallible, that he was so incredibly smart,he had to be right. He was basically correct with the theory: To be productive, exercise must be intense, brief and infrequent. Where he was wrong was on the application of the theory. I kept reducing the volume and frequency of my clients training until, finally, they were performing only two to four sets per workout once every four to seven, and in some cases every 10 - 14 days. The volume and frequency requirements of any given individual depend on his innate recovery ability, with individual recovery ability, like all genetic traits, being expressed across a very broad range.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mminter.htm

===========================================
Debate This: Train Once A Month For Massive Muscles!

How often to train? That is the question! There are dark rumors afloat; being whispered but never dared shouted. Read on if you would like to learn the truth about training frequency and see if you agree or not. I have also included a sample program...

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jamesst2.htm

Mike Mentzer and the whole HIT protocol he advocated was controversial and still is. A lot of this was based on the Colorado Experiment and Casey Viator. Google it. The claims made for this type of training were pretty wild. I tried this diligently into the early 80s and it didn’t work, actually was counterproductive. Viator and Mentzer were on huge amounts of drugs, and Viator was regaining muscle from an injury. Both these guys were genetic marvels and unless you are too, it probably will only make you weak. Mentzer allegedly worked out differently and sold books and routines that promised something for nothing.

A lot of research says that the way to build strength is on compound lifts for low reps and to build muscle you need higher reps with a lot of time under tension. My guess is the minimum amount of working out would be once per week per bodypart. Mentzer’s routine will fry your nervous system and actually make you weaker and smaller. But hey, give it a try for 6 months and see what happens. I still think you will do much better with a simple routine of pull ups and pushups done 3 times per week in your own bedroom.

 

[DragonBits]

FWIW, my PCP is a former bodybuilder and an advocate of HIT / Tabata style exercise. Not that his advise is sacrosanct, but here is an online article he wrote, he is the guy on the right.

I had thought he would have been more amenable towards TRT, and philosophically he is, but pragmatically the medical group he is apart of is old school and wouldn't approve of TRT for someone not below the Labcorp range. And no doubt medicare insurance wouldn't pay in any event. He thought my going to Defy was a wise way to go, so he is supportive in that way.

=================================================

My masculinity: Then and now​

It was the summer of 1982 at the Atlis Gym in Wildwood, New Jersey.

Three of my roommates and I would work out then head over to the beach to sleep. I had several jobs – fast food, the convention center and a liquor store – but the guys I lived with worked at a nightclub.

It was two bouncers and a bartender with a lot of testosterone looking to be balanced out with equal portions of estrogen. That was the picture of masculinity then, a mix of Arnold Schwarzenegger height and width with a touch of professional football freaks of nature as steroid use at that time was back alley and underground.

I am not professing steroids are the only way to get big, but with limited access to anabolic steroids during that time, there was a clear division between regular men and what people considered “real men.” Truth of the matter is most of the “monsters” I used to know have died or gone onto chronic disease.

In the last 30 years, athletes have abounded in “non-muscle sports” like golf, tennis and skateboarding, to name a few.

Gatorade has helped fuel the “little guy” in getting recognition as “ripped,” and cardiovascular sports have become the new challenge in running personal records two to three times a year in back-to-back marathons or Iron Man competitions. Nike has also embraced colorful, light, soft, orthopedically correct shoes that are anything other than AstroTurf ready.

Even in the world of medicine, longevity instead of power has taken over to signal the change from garnishing unbridled testosterone to instead proper macronutrient measurement and well-orchestrated sleep patterns and recovery.

Fast forward to the summer of 2015, and I am now pushing weight (can’t bang iron anymore in the gym as Planet Fitness encourages a no-judgment zone where grunting and clanging iron is met with a loud train horn and flashing lights).

The resistance exercise movements are about the same – squatting, bench press, lateral cable raises and overhead press – but the research has found benefits to cutting down time spent with weights in favor of rapid transitions, little rest between sets and presto, done in 20 minutes.

The concept of Tabata-type exercises and high intensity interval training has done wonders for my free time in that I can now be finished with a good “pump” in a fraction of the time spent in front of the mirrors shoulder to shoulder with other ego-centered guys thinking they are getting healthy when in actuality, the weights do little for longevity.

What better way to work with longevity than to cut out of the gym faster than some gym newbies take to warm up, travel across town and make it just in time to roll out my mat and start meditative yoga.

Yes, I used to do 15 to 20 minutes of stretching to prep for my two hours of barbell and dumbbell use, but now I’m almost back to body building weight at 53 years old, a low body fat percentage and probably better endurance, lower cholesterol and better sleep than any point in my life.

I love watching the expression of people when I tell them how old I am. I have adopted an anti-inflammatory diet, started teaching yoga and lead hiking groups to local and national wilderness.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love the feeling of pumped up, tight, well-fueled body parts, but I think with science showing the benefits of nutritional efficiency combined with cardiovascular fitness, mixing this with old school weight training yields faster gains, less injury and better health outcomes.

With the age of the Internet evolving rapidly, it is difficult to sort through blogs that are written by Kim Kardashian and research funded by the National Institutes of Health. One really has to be used to sifting through the weeds to find the fruit.

The beauty is if you know how to interpret data, you will be able to take advantage of chasing down the fountain of youth.

This is where I believe the biggest change has occurred between the concept of masculinity now and from days gone by. Confidence combined with personal success and an aura of health are the true “studs” of today.

http://www.ahchealthenews.com/2015/11/20/my-masculinity-then-and-now/

 

[Dave B.]

I am looking to just maintain my current strength while doing cardio most every day.

I am thinking once a week weightlifting to maintain strength,but I have seen some articles that say once a month can work?

Any opinions / experience on doing the minimum for weightlifting?

Interesting thing that you're a cyclist. Let me guess, you go into the gym and do squats or leg press and then you can't walk the next day because of severe soreness.

Think of a bicep curl. Lifting weights involves concentric contractions (lifting up) and eccentric contractions (lowering the weight). Did you know that soreness only results from eccentric muscle contractions.

Biking in particular is almost a completely concentric activity. While one leg is pushing down, the other is getting a free ride up, so to speak. Cyclists can have huge legs and yet get destroyed in the squat rack because squats are largely an eccentric activity.

Likewise, most stories of athletes coming down with rhabdomyolysis end up doing it on the bike, in something like a spin class. Because there are no eccentric contractions involved, untrained athletes can push way too hard on the bike.


But I digress. Getting back to upper body mass:

You have to lift enough that your body can adapt and grow stronger, if "more" of something is your goal (more strength, or more muscle). Adaptation means the cycle of stress/rest/recovery has to be built in. There has to be "enough" of all three of these things for the process to work. Not enough stress, you won't gain anything. Not enough rest and recovery, you won't gain anything either.

Some people love 2 hour workouts, some people want to get in and out in 30 minutes. For fast workouts you're forced to do compound exercises like squat, deadlift, cleans and presses etc. If you want to hit biceps and triceps and shoulders and low back and upper back all individually and separately, with special movements for each one, it is going to take 2 hours.

You'll get stronger if you lift very heavy with low reps (you fail at 5 or less). Powerlifters train this way.

You'll get bigger muscles if you lift with lower weight and do more reps (you fail at 8-10). Bodybuilders do this for size gains.

You'll stay the same or get gradually weaker with age if you do a bunch of upper-body machines and leg presses and crunches in the gym once per week.