What Would a Daily Protocol Look Like For Me?

[Vince]

I know this thread is getting pretty long and this is off the subject. Has anybody talk to you about your lipid panel, it looks terrible. Makes me wonder if coronary artery disease runs in your family.

 

[FeelingLost]

Hi Storm, If understand your original question it is. Will daily T injections fix my anxiety/panic attacks? IF so, how much should I inject?

I turned to TRT just over a year ago because of depression/anxiety/panic attacks. I was taking BusPar 15mg/day and also had lorazipam for emergencies.

My TT before TRT was 173. When my TT hit 350 most of my anxiety was resolved.
My TT ebbed and flowed between 350 and 630. I was able to get off my anxiety meds.
I also did major diet changes(no more fast food, no bread no processed sugar) and joined a gym. I lost 30# and my triglycerides dropped to double digits

Reading your last blood tests it does not look like your male harmones are the reasons you have anxiety.
Your numbers look too good. You need to start looking else where for the cause of your anxiety. I don't think going from EOD to daily is going to do anything for your mental state.

Best of luck. I know how you feel and it totally sucks.

PS- There is nothing more addicting than klonopin you need to get off of that as soon as possible.

 

[Storm]

I'm switching to daily injections starting today. My current protocol is 50mg T cyp E3.5D. 0.30 adex at time of injections. 250iu of Hcg Monday and Friday. My goal is to lower my total T dose to 70mg per week in hopes of being able to drop the adex altogether. I'm not going to change Hcg protocol. I'll run labs in four weeks and monitor any high E2 symptoms.

It sounds like if I want to do daily then i should go to 15mg daily and try 100iu of hcg daily too since that's the same as 200iu every other day. Or I could stick with 200iu EOD and do test daily. It just makes sense for me to try to do everything daily if possible.

Given that E is such a personal thing I went to EOD and then to daily and it never changed the large amount of aromatase that I have going on and still require anastrozole. The point here is that when you get to 70mg +/- you're well below what anyone would consider a basic starting weekly (cumulative) dose of 100mg. To a point its chasing your tail if you get a Total trough of 500 just to control E then there's absolutely a point of diminishing returns. One point of caution is that there's absolutely no linear value to any of this, anywhere. It's a totally individualistic journey if you will. because one guy says he controls E with X dose, it's extremely unlikely that that will work of be of any therapeutic value for you.

I've only ever had to use .2mg of anastrozole and that's when I wasn't taking DIM so maybe daily will work for me. What do you think my daily regimen should look like? Should I mimic what my EOD was and do 20mg of test ED or even lower it to 15mg and do 100iu of hcg or lower it to 50iu?

I know this thread is getting pretty long and this is off the subject. Has anybody talk to you about your lipid panel, it looks terrible. Makes me wonder if coronary artery disease runs in your family.

Hey they have talked to me but won't put me on any meds for it. On some of these tests I didn't fast. My numbers looked a bit better when I did a 12 hour fast. I still think I should be put on something for cholesterol. I currently just take the over the counter stuff like red yeast rice and cholestoff. What do you think? I can post my fasting one. It probably just runs in the family. I eat pretty healthy and when I'm feeling good I'm in the gym. I'm 6'4" 235 right now. Mainly eat ground turkey, chicken, eggs, brown rice, quinoa, etc. When I eat out it's usually chick fila or chipotle. Also since you do daily, what's your take on my regimen for daily for hcg and test? Do you always do shallow intramuscular and where do you inject? I am changing to injecting test back into muscle shallow and I was going to do my hcg sub q because isn't it better sub q? I'm following your journey in the other thread and it is fantastic. My goal with dailies is to also make it so I don't have to inject so much.

Hi Storm, If understand your original question it is. Will daily T injections fix my anxiety/panic attacks? IF so, how much should I inject?

I turned to TRT just over a year ago because of depression/anxiety/panic attacks. I was taking BusPar 15mg/day and also had lorazipam for emergencies.

My TT before TRT was 173. When my TT hit 350 most of my anxiety was resolved.
My TT ebbed and flowed between 350 and 630. I was able to get off my anxiety meds.
I also did major diet changes(no more fast food, no bread no processed sugar) and joined a gym. I lost 30# and my triglycerides dropped to double digits

Reading your last blood tests it does not look like your male harmones are the reasons you have anxiety.
Your numbers look too good. You need to start looking else where for the cause of your anxiety. I don't think going from EOD to daily is going to do anything for your mental state.

Best of luck. I know how you feel and it totally sucks.

PS- There is nothing more addicting than klonopin you need to get off of that as soon as possible.

Thanks for your reply. I've done everything from salvia cortisol tests, ultrasound on my balls that found a slight varicolie but it was the same blood flow as other testicle so doc said that was fine. I did a sleep study that showed I have mild sleep apeana because I have a slight deviated septum but again it's right on the mild line. I think TRT did help my anxiety because I've been off of lexapro for over a year and i still would panic but it would subside. I just recently got put back on lexapro and stopped. It made things worse so this has to be hormone related. I also was off clonopin for over a year as well. I think I just need to get dialed in so I'm really hoping dailies will help. I just don't know what dose to do and what to do about HCG since I'm used to doing that EOD too.

Any help would be greatly appreciated everyone! Thanks

 

[Systemlord]

I completely missed that you were on Klonopin, I spent a year withdrawing off of it after 30 years and is the reason I'm on TRT. I never recovered. Whenever you start, then stop a medication like that you will go through withdrawal. Changing protocols won't fix your anxiety as much as you wish it would, it won't because of withdrawal.

These medications wreck your hormones and make it seem like TRT isn't working, these are mind altering drugs that you must periodically increase from them to remain effective. You ask what good is it to shoot for the 400's ranges but you don't realise elevated E2 can cause anxiety, you want high T and high E2 with anxiety or do you want to feel good? Any chance you can get ahold of an AI from your doctor?

 

[Storm]

I completely missed that you were on Klonopin, I spent a year withdrawing off of it after 30 years and is the reason I'm on TRT. I never recovered. Whenever you start, then stop a medication like that you will go through withdrawal. Changing protocols won't fix your anxiety as much as you wish it would, it won't because of withdrawal.

These medications wreck your hormones and make it seem like TRT isn't working, these are mind altering drugs that you must periodically increase from them to remain effective. You ask what good is it to shoot for the 400's ranges but you don't realise elevated E2 can cause anxiety, you want high T and high E2 with anxiety or do you want to feel good? Any chance you can get ahold of an AI from your doctor?

Hey I'm on klonopon currently taking 1mg 2x per day. I have an AI from my doctor and I only have to do .2mg of it to get me back in the high 20s or low 30s on the sensitive estrogen test. If I take DIM 200mg daily and I'm sure if I start taking that calcium supp then I wouldn't even need an AI.

Currently I'm just trying to find out what daily protocol to try. It seems easiest if i did HCG and test daily but I know the half life on HCG is around 33 to 36 hours so that might make estrogen worse potentially if I did HCG daily

What is everyone else doing for HCG on daily protocols for dosing, injection site, and ed, EOD, e3d, or e3.5 days. The 3.5 days would be very hard to track. Should i do hcg daily with test, EOD, or 2x a week like Monday and Friday? And at what dose? I was doing 200iu EOD with that labeork. So that's what I thought 100iu would be good daily or I could do 400iu or 500iu 2x a week or 250iu twice a week? Please help.

 

[Vince]

The current protocol that I'm on, I inject testosterone cypionate 16 mg every day, 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days and no AI. I do a circular rotation shoulders and ventorgluteal, I use a 29g 1/2 in syringe for shallow IM. My main reason to going to daily was to lower my HCT which it did, I haven't had to donate blood for almost 1 year now.

 

[Storm]

The current protocol that I'm on, I inject testosterone cypionate 16 mg every day, 500 IU of HCG every three and a half days and no AI. I do a circular rotation shoulders and ventorgluteal, I use a 29g 1/2 in syringe for shallow IM. My main reason to going to daily was to lower my HCT which it did, I haven't had to donate blood for almost 1 year now.

Hey Vince I definitely want to do 16mg daily of test cyp. That's. 08 on the syringe. My goal is to get my hematocrit down too and not have to donate. I also use a 29 .5 inch needle. Why is your HCG so high ? I've been averaging 600 to 800iu a week on the EOD schedule at 200iu. Any reason you don't do daily hcg at smaller doses? I've read that smaller doses daily is better for anxiety which is why I was going to try something like 50 to 100iu daily with the 16mg of test cyp. Where do you inject your hcg? Do you do the Nelson method? What's ventoglutal injection site? Any reason why you don't pin your upper outer thigh? Sorry for all of the questions. There was another guy who did only 50 to 100iu of hcg daily because he had a bad sense of well being like me and anxiety and felt like he was going to die and daily HCG fixed it and he had a kid and good fertility on it. Thanks

 

[Vince]

Best Injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...n-site-no-aspiration-needed-avoids-all-nerves
I like the higher dose of HCG, I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week now for over 3 years. I've never felt any anxiety from injecting T or HCG. I did try injecting in my thighs for a short time but did not like injecting there. I inject HCG and testosterone separately in the same type of syringe 29g 1/2", both shallow IM. I just follow my rotation in a circle. I make nine separate injections a week.

 

[Storm]

Best Injection site, no aspiration needed, avoids all nerves
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...n-site-no-aspiration-needed-avoids-all-nerves
I like the higher dose of HCG, I've been injecting 500 IU of HCG twice a week now for over 3 years. I've never felt any anxiety from injecting T or HCG. I did try injecting in my thighs for a short time but did not like injecting there. I inject HCG and testosterone separately in the same type of syringe 29g 1/2", both shallow IM. I just follow my rotation in a circle. I make nine separate injections a week.

Thank you for this I always thought HCG should be sub q. So I take it you don't pinch the skin for the HCG either then? I didn't know I didn't have to aspirate that's awesome! I've always been afraid of hitting a vein or artery. Finally, what does your schedule look like for hcg then? I don't get the whole 3.5 day thing. I would rather do it when I'm not at work and in the mornings. Please breakdown what the schedule would look like for me. I just injected test 16mg today when I woke up. So when do I need to do the hcg injections ? Also since hcg only has a shelf life of 30 days when reconstituted in the fridge and most vials are 11000iu do you freeze any syringes with hcg? Thanks again for your expertise

 

[Storm]

Guys I started the protocol today with 16mg of test and 100iu of hcg. I'm just going to do it daily since it is easier for me to remember and according to Crisler he said the best protocol in his opinion is to do a t gel and hcg daily. I'm not doing a t gel but this should be just as good if not better I'm assuming. I will keep you guys updated.

I'm really interested in knowing about the HCG shelf life though. I know that it diminishes in potency after 30 days in the fridge and most of us use the 1100iu vial a lot longer than that. So should we be freezing needles of hcg and then thawing them out? I've read about that and thought that would make the most sense.

Also, if it is best to do HCG shallow IM versus sub q in my stomach, should I just inject for instance my shoulder with test and then choose another spot on that same shoulder right after and inject the HCG? I don't feel too comfortable with Nelson's method and if I freeze the HCG needles and thaw them out that wouldn't work anyways. I just want to be as consistent with this as possible. I'm going to do this protocol for 5-6 weeks and then get labs, but I just need help with this little stuff.

Finally, can someone look at my DHEA levels and see if I need to be doing DHEA every day like most as well? If I'm reading it right it looks like in August I had a DHEA-Sulfate test and it was 216 on a 138.5 to 475.2 scale. Thoughts?

Thanks again so much guys for all of the GREAT help!! I love this forum!!!

 

[Vince]

Thank you for this I always thought HCG should be sub q. So I take it you don't pinch the skin for the HCG either then? I didn't know I didn't have to aspirate that's awesome! I've always been afraid of hitting a vein or artery. Finally, what does your schedule look like for hcg then? I don't get the whole 3.5 day thing. I would rather do it when I'm not at work and in the mornings. Please breakdown what the schedule would look like for me. I just injected test 16mg today when I woke up. So when do I need to do the hcg injections ? Also since hcg only has a shelf life of 30 days when reconstituted in the fridge and most vials are 11000iu do you freeze any syringes with hcg? Thanks again for your expertise

I inject HCG Monday morning and Thursday morning, I did inject Monday morning and Thursday night and that's 3 1/2 days. Now I only inject in the mornings. HCG shelf life is 90 days if kept refrigerated and after that only loses about 7% strength per month. I never freeze HCG and I never pinch the skin when injecting.

 

[Vince]

a post by Nelson

All of these studies point to 500 IU HCG doses:

Two Studies That Used HCG with Testosterone

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[Nashtide]

I've been freezing and thawing my hcg for two years. Works like a charm.

 

[ratbag]

I believe that when we refer to shallow IM we are referring to testosterone injection so HCG can be injected SQ anytime. In fact I believe most inject HCG SQ. For me I like to load it all together in the same syringe and do it all in one shot so for that reason it has to be shallow IM for me.

Some people have difficulty with supplementing DHEA. I've read here that Dr. Saya quite often will keep it well above range. My TRT MD does the same. For me DHEA makes me feel calm and relaxed and anxiety free. And HCG also helped that. Between the two I no longer have any anxiety or nervousness. I am calm and relaxed and I feel really good. But some who try DHEA find that it increases their anxiety and makes them feel uncomfortable. I believe one needs to try it to know if it helps them or not.

 

[Vince]

I've always injected my HCG using shallow IM. I need to take my DHEA in the morning, otherwise I can't sleep.

 

[Storm]

I inject HCG Monday morning and Thursday morning, I did inject Monday morning and Thursday night and that's 3 1/2 days. Now I only inject in the mornings. HCG shelf life is 90 days if kept refrigerated and after that only loses about 7% strength per month. I never freeze HCG and I never pinch the skin when injecting.

Thank you for this Vince. Where did you get the info that HCG is good for 90 Days. Every research study I see says it is good refrigerated after being mixed for up to 30 days maybe even less and my doc's compounding pharmacy told me 45 days. A lot of mixed reviews out there so I'm probably just better off being safe and freezing the needles with hcg in them since I'm doing daily injections now.

a post by Nelson

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I don't doubt this is a great dose and way to do things. I just want to start off small and at 100iu a day it is going to be more consistent and easier to do for me. I might try the 500iu 2x a week in the future if this doesn't work out. I gave blood today so I feel like crap especially being on this new protocol for only 2 days now, but we will see in a few weeks how I feel and what my labs look like!

I've been freezing and thawing my hcg for two years. Works like a charm.

Great thanks for the input! I'm just going to do this to be better safe than sorry since there is so many mixed reviews about the shelf life of it after being mixed.

I believe that when we refer to shallow IM we are referring to testosterone injection so HCG can be injected SQ anytime. In fact I believe most inject HCG SQ. For me I like to load it all together in the same syringe and do it all in one shot so for that reason it has to be shallow IM for me.

Some people have difficulty with supplementing DHEA. I've read here that Dr. Saya quite often will keep it well above range. My TRT MD does the same. For me DHEA makes me feel calm and relaxed and anxiety free. And HCG also helped that. Between the two I no longer have any anxiety or nervousness. I am calm and relaxed and I feel really good. But some who try DHEA find that it increases their anxiety and makes them feel uncomfortable. I believe one needs to try it to know if it helps them or not.

I tried shallow IM into the middle outer thigh today for HCG and maybe it is in my head but it seems better.. who knows. I am probably just going to alternate thighs every day for the HCG and get smaller 31 gauge 1/2 inch needles to do shallow IM into the thigh.

So according to my DHEA number what would you think that it would be considered? (low, medium, higher, etc). What's your current DHEA level at and how much do you do daily by the way that you feel that good? It is DHEA sulfate on my labs right? What is your frequency/dosing/etc of HCG/test cyp? Any estrogen blockers? I will probably stay away from DHEA until I get dialed in with the new ED frequency of HCG/test. If I didn't mention I'm doing 100iu ED of HCG and 16mg of test cyp ED. I am doing what Vince recommended for the test and injecting it into the shoulder and then going into the part of the glute by the hip bone (I like that injection).

I've always injected my HCG using shallow IM. I need to take my DHEA in the morning, otherwise I can't sleep.

I'm definitely going to keep doing the HCG shallow IM as I think it might work better for me into the thigh and I'm going to change it to a 31 gauge needle 1/2 inch since HCG is like water. Thanks for the tip on DHEA my doc hasn't mentioned it to me so I'm not sure. I only had one consolation with him in a year (Dr. Saya) because it is like a lot of money out of pocket to have a consultation with him so I usually just do it with the nurse instead.

 

[Vince]

HCG--Does it expire/lose potency after a few weeks in the refrigerator ​

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...potency-after-a-few-weeks-in-the-refrigerator

My friend Shaun Noorian responded:

Here's an explanation I did in a post a few years ago on excelmale.com​

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"Expiration" in the pharmaceutical industry is defined as "The date placed on the container/labels of a drug product designating the time during which a batch of the product is expected to remain within the approved shelf life specifications if stored under defined conditions, and after which it may not be used." In other words a drug will expire once it falls outside it's acceptable specifications of pH, potency, appearance, etc the primary factor being potency. Once the active ingredient falls outside 90 - 110% its potency the medication is considered to be expired. So a drug that has 89% its listed potency is by FDA and USP standards no longer suitable for use.

HCG is an interesting medication though... Unlike most drugs it's acceptable potency range according to its USP monograph is 80 - 125%. This is due to the fact that it is measured in International Units (IU) and not milligrams (mg). Since the analytical test to measure potency in IUs is not as accurate as the test used to measure potency by mass USP gives HCG the wider potency range. This is true of other medications measured in IUs.

Since the acceptable potency range and the therapeutic index for HCG are quite large a compounder can actually make the medication well above 100% and still be within the acceptable limits. Brand name HCG (Pregnyl) actually states a 60 day expiration date on it's HCG and I've tested their vials to be within 95-100% potency. You can imagine how long the expiration date would be if the HCG was made at 115% or even 125% potency.

I know compounders that have done long term stability studies on HCG showing it to be quite stable up to 90 days under refrigeration. To be conservative most compounders place 30-60 day Beyond Use Dates on their preparations just as we do. Since the Beyond Use Date starts the moment the HCG powder touches water it is important to make sure you get your HCG from a pharmacy that Freeze Dries it's HCG to prevent getting a batch that has already been reconstituted and started to degrade.​

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[Storm]

HCG--Does it expire/lose potency after a few weeks in the refrigerator ​

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...potency-after-a-few-weeks-in-the-refrigerator

​

Very interesting read. I've never frozen my needles but figured I might as well so I'm getting the highest potency that I possibly can since I don't know much about how the compounding pharmacy makes their HCG.

 

[FeelingLost]

Very interesting read. I've never frozen my needles but figured I might as well so I'm getting the highest potency that I possibly can since I don't know much about how the compounding pharmacy makes their HCG.

Hi Storm,
I have read the chains in HCG are very fragile. One read even suggested to not store in your frig door do the constant agitation of the door opening and closing.
If you have ever seen a liquid freeze (change state) at a microscopic lvl it is very violent. IMO freezing will damage these fragile chains.

All that said I have had more problems with weak HCG than shelf life. When you get a weak bottle (freshly mixed) within 7 days all the benefits go away.

 

[Vince]

Hi Storm,
I have read the chains in HCG are very fragile. One read even suggested to not store in your frig door do the constant agitation of the door opening and closing.
If you have ever seen a liquid freeze (change state) at a microscopic lvl it is very violent. IMO freezing will damage these fragile chains.

All that said I have had more problems with weak HCG than shelf life. When you get a weak bottle (freshly mixed) within 7 days all the benefits go away.

I've always get my HCG from either APS or Empower, it's been over 3 years now and haven't noticed any weak vials. Maybe some men are more sensitive to HCG than others.