Very low T in mid-twenties

[Systemlord]

Injections are the preferred method of raising testosterone to youthful levels, gels, creams can mimic the natural rhythm but some just don't absorb well. You can't continue on with levels that low without risking serious diseases down the road, 9 nmol/L are the levels of a 90 years old man. Those levels are associated with heart disease, alzheimer's, cardiovascular diseases, and many others.

Sorting this out without TRT, not likely. Most here are on injectables, 100% is absorbed and no need to worry about transferring to others and is less messy.

 

[snorgejr]

Thanks for your reply. Is your statement stil valid when talking about Nebido? This is the only injectable available in Norway, as far as my research has shown.

Injections are the preferred method of raising testosterone to youthful levels, gels, creams can mimic the natural rhythm but some just don't absorb well. You can't continue on with levels that low without risking serious diseases down the road, 9 nmol/L are the levels of a 90 years old man. Those levels are associated with heart disease, alzheimer's, cardiovascular diseases, and many others.

Sorting this out without TRT, not likely. Most here are on injectables, 100% is absorbed and no need to worry about transferring to others and is less messy.

 

[Systemlord]

Thanks for your reply. Is your statement stil valid when talking about Nebido? This is the only injectable available in Norway, as far as my research has shown.

In that case go with testogel, nedibo is garbage!

 

[FOX1]

Snorgejr; don't worry about trying to trying to interoperate results, just get your mind fixed on the results you get for your bloods.
.
Also, do not be taken in by the amount of people saying "injections are the best route", these same people are taking a list of other medications and their bloods are up and down like yoyo's, yet they still think injections are the best route!

hope my mail message enlightens you.

 

[FOX1]

In that case go with testogel, nedibo is garbage!

How long were you on Nebido? and what reactions did it cause for you to regard it as garbage?

 

[snorgejr]

I'd like to know this as well!

 

[FOX1]

Alwaysconsidered peaks and troughs "Natural" to the human body, for someonefit and healthy with good natural testosterone production they start to dipthrough out the day as the day goes on, they then go to bed, sleep and getboosted back up again, a natural rhythm of life.
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Someone on high testosterone 24/7 is not natural to this rhythm, possibly why Iprefer Testogel as it follows a more natural body rhythm gradually dropping offthrough out the day as nature intended.
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In UK,Nebido is an initial 1000mg injection followed up by a further 1000mg injection6 weeks later.

After this further injection, bloods are taken at the 6 / 8 / 10 week stage todetermine testosterone levels, if these are low between to 8 - 10 week stage, afurther 1000mg injection can be given at 10 weeks rather than the 12 weekguideline

someone mentioned 2 week lab checks are a waste of money, this is not correctwhen initially kicking off with Nebido as you need to know your levels at the6/8/10 week stage so you can ensure the correct timing of next injection.
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If gels do not work for you? then sure go onto injections, but at least give gels a go, TestoGel works very well with high results, why would I want to inject my body, when the quick drying gel does all I need and provides Testosterone in a more natural way, can anyone answer this?

 

[Systemlord]

How long were you on Nebido? and what reactions did it cause for you to regard it as garbage?

Nebido doesn't work for the majority of guys, it won't work for hyper metabolizers or guys with very high SHBG and takes a long, long time to dial-in. Testogel is best do to matching the natural rhythm and would always recommended Testogel over Nebido.

 

[FOX1]

Nebido doesn't work for the majority of guys, it won't work for hyper metabolizers or guys with very high SHBG and takes a long, long time to dial-in. Testogel is best do to matching the natural rhythm and would always recommended Testogel over Nebido.

You cannot advise against Nebido simply because it does not work for "some guys" or indeed you have read, or been told it does not work.
Unless you have tried yourself and can comment direct on experience!
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Nebido is used widely within Europe and "Free" in UK, no charge at all, and it is strictly controlled with regular blood checks, if these blood results were coming back low at the 8 - 10 week stage do you really think it would still be used!
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In UK many/most, family doctors main principle is to ensure the best health for their patients, there is no insurance required, no payment for consultations and medications are free or indeed minimal charge (In England, Free in Scotland). This helps prevent doctors focusing on simply getting cash from patients, and perhaps focusing on financial gain from patients rather than having their health as No.1 interest.
.
would be interesting to find out the costs involved for people out with the UK, who require medical insurance, and what fee's they pay for doctors appointments, medication etc, and how the doctors actually earn their wage

 

[snorgejr]

Thanks again for your insight. I'm hoping to get the MRI done next week, and I'm inclined to try TRT in the form of a gel if nothing abnormal shows up.

I've been reading about hCG and Clomid in combination with TRT for maintaining fertility, as I would like to have kids within the next 5-8 years or so. Is this something I should start taking at once, if my doctor is willing to prescribe it?

I'm also a bit concerned about the longevity of TRT - is there any studies or experiences showing consequences of TRT and/or hCG in the long run? I'm thinking about 20+ years.

 

[lowe2sucks]

i would never think you have low testosterone because of how you decribed your lifestyle.. I coudn't have drive and motivation to do half of the things you do and I was on trt with high testosterone lol
i am 3 years younger than you. if I was you I woudn't jump on trt but if your low sex drive is really bothering you than maybe you really need it but things can be way worse than they are right now for you

 

[snorgejr]

i would never think you have low testosterone because of how you decribed your lifestyle.. I coudn't have drive and motivation to do half of the things you do and I was on trt with high testosterone lol
i am 3 years younger than you. if I was you I woudn't jump on trt but if your low sex drive is really bothering you than maybe you really need it but things can be way worse than they are right now for you

Are you yourself on TRT? As a poor student to begin with, I wouldn't bother spending a large chunk of my money on doctors to get this solved if I didn't considder it a major problem. Nor would I bother posting my case in this forum.

 

[snorgejr]

Update: My MD put me on Clomid, as Im still only 25 yo. 50mg ED for the first 5 days, followed by 25mg 2-3 times per week. Any thoughts? Which protocol should I begin with; 2 or 3 times per wk?

 

[OMI100]

Here is my Mantra....
A LOT of info to digest...
I would recommend getting the books and do some reading on the subject....
I would also download DR. John's paper and powerpoint presentation.
Other link cover a LOT of ground to include thyroid.
Remember... Education is your friend...
********************************
First step is education....
********************************
Cannot tell how much research you have done on TRT.
If not a lot, I recommend you get a few books.
Get a few good books and educate yourself now:
1. Get Nelsons book "Testosterone: A Man’s Guide".
2. Get Lee Myer's book "Natural Versus Testosterone Therapy".
3. Get “Testosterone for life - Dr. Abraham Morgentaller “.
4. Get “The Definitive Testosterone Replacement Therapy MANual: How to OptimizeYour Testosterone For Lifelong Health And Happiness” by Jay Campbell.
These books will give you a much better understanding of TRT....
********************************
ExcelMale.comGuide to Testosterone Replacement
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?5823-ExcelMale-com-Guide-to-Testosterone-Replacement
**********************************
One other forumthat has great info that might be useful to you is:
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/
GREAT article onE2 – A MUST READ
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Hdr_Estrogen.aspx
********************************
Dr Saya's Videos on Testosterone Therapy and Side Effect Management
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?15207-Dr-Saya-s-Videos-on-Testosterone-Therapy-and-Side-Effect-Management
*********************************
DR.Saya’s HCG Study
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=32234#post32234
**********************************
Second step might be to have a look at your thyroid and see if any issues there.
********************************
Do some research.
I do like Tiredthyroid as a starting point.
Easy to read sections.
References at the bottom of each section (and NOT from people wearing "tinfoil" hats)
See below:
Basic sources to research Thyroid issues and testing:
******************************************
https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/
Spend time here and get the 2 books, “STTM: The Revised Book” and “STTMII:Authored by Doctors”.
*******************************************
http://www.tiredthyroid.com/
Great simple to understand articles.
Get her book.... “Tired Thyroid: From Hyper to Hypo to Healing—Breaking the TSHRule”, https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...Channel=system
A lot of clear researched information that is easy toread and understand.
***************************
https://hypothyroidmom.com/
Good info here. Look around.
*************************
https://www.restartmed.com/?s=thyroid
A LOT of good articles and a youtube page.
Spend time here looking around and reading after getting labs back.
************************************
Do you have Hypothyroidism?
The CompleteHypothyroidism User Guide for Patients (2018 Edition)
https://www.restartmed.com/hypothyroidism/
*********************************
Need information on thyroid testing....
Read here:
http://www.tiredthyroid.com/what-labs.html
And here:
http://www.tiredthyroid.com/optimal-labs.html
and here:
https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/
and here:
https://www.restartmed.com/thyroid-tests/
and here:
https://www.restartmed.com/hormone-testing/
And here:
https://www.restartmed.com/normal-thyroid-levels/
**************************************
Some additional links to read before you receive the books you have already ordered
Go here:
http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html
and download:
TRT: Recipe For Success
Print out.
and
HCG Update.
andthe TRT Power Point presentation.

Dr. Crisler is one of the "TRT Cutting Edge DR's" here in the states....
Also go here:
http://www.drjohncrisler.com/the-cri...part-deux.html
and also print out the article.
***************************
ALSO look at the videos that are posted on this site. A LOT of great info to take in....
******************************
Now you will have a great reference library and knowledge base to go forward on!

 

[snorgejr]

Thanks for your reply. I've been through most of this information after hours upon hours of research on TRT. I've been unable to find any reliable data on the use of Clomid in males under 30 years of age, except from the occasional anecdote, which is the reason for my question.

 

[Vince]

Thanks for your reply. I've been through most of this information after hours upon hours of research on TRT. I've been unable to find any reliable data on the use of Clomid in males under 30 years of age, except from the occasional anecdote, which is the reason for my question.

Which thread by Nelson may be able to help you.

Clomid: What Every Man Needs to Know

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6406-Clomid-What-Every-Man-Needs-to-Know

 

[Gman86]

Update: My MD put me on Clomid, as Im still only 25 yo. 50mg ED for the first 5 days, followed by 25mg 2-3 times per week. Any thoughts? Which protocol should I begin with; 2 or 3 times per wk?

50mg/ day of Clomid was hell for me. Darkest time in my entire life. The thoughts I would have were scary. Never felt like that before or after Clomid. From my research, the top doctors are trying much less dosages with guys. I would start with 12.5mg ED, or 12.5mg EOD. That seems to be what the top guys use now for a starting protocol on Clomid. 50mg/ day brought my total T to 1500. So maybe 25mg/ day would of gave me 750 total T. And maybe 12.5mg/ day would of gave me 375 total T. But I think there's probably a rate of diminishing returns on the higher doses of Clomid. There's only so much stimulation the testicles can deal with. So if I had to guess, I would guess that on 12.5mg/ day, my total T would of been higher than 375. I don't think it works as linearly as I stated above.

12.5mg/ day would equal 87.5mg/ week.
Between the two options he gave you, I would choose the 25mg 3x/ week. I think 25mg 2x/ week would be too low of a dose. 25mg 3x/ week would give you 75mg/ week total, which I think would be a good weekly dose to be on. Not too high, not too low. Also, I wouldn't do the loading dose of 50mg/ day for 5 days. I would just start taking 25mg 3x/ week from the beginning.

 

[snorgejr]

50mg/ day of Clomid was hell for me. Darkest time in my entire life. The thoughts I would have were scary. Never felt like that before or after Clomid. From my research, the top doctors are trying much less dosages with guys. I would start with 12.5mg ED, or 12.5mg EOD. That seems to be what the top guys use now for a starting protocol on Clomid. 50mg/ day brought my total T to 1500. So maybe 25mg/ day would of gave me 750 total T. And maybe 12.5mg/ day would of gave me 375 total T. But I think there’s probably a rate of diminishing returns on the higher doses of Clomid. There’s only so much stimulation the testicles can deal with. So if I had to guess, I would guess that on 12.5mg/ day, my total T would of been higher than 375. I don’t think it works as linearly as I stated above.

12.5mg/ day would equal 87.5mg/ week.
Between the two options he gave you, I would choose the 25mg 3x/ week. I think 25mg 2x/ week would be too low of a dose. 25mg 3x/ week would give you 75mg/ week total, which I think would be a good weekly dose to be on. Not too high, not too low. Also, I wouldn’t do the loading dose of 50mg/ day for 5 days. I would just start taking 25mg 3x/ week from the beginning.

Thanks for the advice. I finished the "loading" of 50mg as I wrote the post, so already done with that. To be honest, I havent noticed much differance at all, except from a rare surprise boner and morning erection the day after the first dose. This has not appeared since. The fatigue, brain fog etc. is pretty much unchanged. Guess I'll wait a day, then start a 25mg EOD protocol? How quick can I expect to notice any differance? Ive read anything from the same day to 4 weeks with Clomid.

 

[Gman86]

Thanks for the advice. I finished the "loading" of 50mg as I wrote the post, so already done with that. To be honest, I havent noticed much differance at all, except from a rare surprise boner and morning erection the day after the first dose. This has not appeared since. The fatigue, brain fog etc. is pretty much unchanged. Guess I'll wait a day, then start a 25mg EOD protocol? How quick can I expect to notice any differance? Ive read anything from the same day to 4 weeks with Clomid.

The half life of Clomid is 6-7 days I believe. So for it to fully build up in your system, it’s gonna take roughly 30-35 days. So I would assume you’ll notice changes over the next 4-5 weeks. Whether those changes are gonna be all good or not, that’s the real question. Clomid could go either way. Obviously I hope all the changes are positive, but only time will tell.

 

[snorgejr]

Update:

Been on Clomid 25mg EOD for about 1,5 weeks, in addition to the first 5 days of 50mg ED. I believe my morning wood frequency might have improved a tiny bit, although it's hard to say for sure. Except from that, I'm still feeling like shit, libido is dead, and energy is very low.

I did some blood work for a different reason after 4 days of the 50mg ED protocol. Seems like the LH and FSH has had a slight bump, which have given me a tiny increase of T. Doesn't matter at all when my symptoms persist though...

https://imgur.com/a/b1lVEgd

Is there still any hope of this getting better with Clomid? Would it be early to do an evaluation after 3 weeks, instead of 4? Don't want to waste more time than I have to getting this sorted out.

Side note: I know testosterone deficiency and thyroid problems often go hand-in-hand, and hypogonadism and hypothyroidism have similar symptoms. I do have very dry skin on my arms, legs and scalp, but can't see the thyroid being the big "sinner" here, given my bloods...(?)