Using HCG alone versus Testosterone alone or Testosterone + HCG

[powerlifterty16]

Nothing, I mean nothing, can replace the symptom improvement of TRT. Not HCG monotherapy, No Clomid and no aromatase inhibitor even though they all increase your own testosterone blood levels. I wish I could find a scientific reference that explains this but so far I have not identified one.

From what I've seen, you are a pretty intelligent guy(chemical engineers are some smart mofos)..seems the board is comprised with many smart guys. I am sure eventually someone will find a reason.
Is there any advantage for someone to stay on hcg, if they are not ready to make the leap to trt due to age, or balding fears(and not wanting to take trt blockers or rogaines)?

 

[powerlifterty16]

Sure would be nice to be able to use a secondary hypo but still functional HPTA with the simplicity of an AI or clomiphene pill. I agree symptoms don't improve even with the raised T levels. Sure would be nice to see a study on this. I am still surprised that Repros has not put out such a study for Androxal. If they had a legitimate study of normal BMI men (not their current high BMI men study that shows some T increase) and they were able to produce legitimate symptom improvement, Androxal would blow many other protocols away. However, since we have not seen that study, and since symptom improvement is such a huge issue (of which Repros must certainly be aware), I would guess that in reality Androxal is really no better than generic clomiphene. If this is true then Repros shareholders better sell quick while everyone is still hopeful but confused.

i was going to participate in an androxal study, bc was tired of noone treating me, however im glad i ddint. it's too risky to take art in these trials. my low t isnt causing me to feel that bad where i need to do that. the study pais around 2k though, but that really isn't much.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

since symptom improvement is such a huge issue (of which Repros must certainly be aware), I would guess that in reality Androxal is really no better than generic clomiphene. If this is true then Repros shareholders better sell quick while everyone is still hopeful but confused.

I agree. If you can notice they did not include sexual function information

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Is there any advantage for someone to stay on hcg, if they are not ready to make the leap to trt due to age, or balding fears(and not wanting to take trt blockers or rogaines)?

A few guys on HCG monotherapy swear they get sex drive benefits. Most are taking 1000 IU three to four times a week. Some are taking higher doses. It gets expensive for sure! Cost and quality of life optimization may happen with testosterone + HCG as the guys stay sexual and their testicles full.

I am talking to a researcher now who will be doing a TRT+HCG study to measure testicular size and sexual function (that group will be compared to TRT alone and may be HCG alone depending on the funding we get to do the study)

 

[powerlifterty16]

right now im on 400 iu 3x per week, and dont really notice much except maybe slightly more assertiveness, slightly less migraines, and slightly stronger in the gym....but i ifgure that either way it is healthier to have higher t levels, so it is prob to stay on it than off.
btw did you change the title or am i going nuts

 

[paco]

Is there any advantage for someone to stay on hcg, if they are not ready to make the leap to trt due to age, or balding fears(and not wanting to take trt blockers or rogaines)?

I would say it is better to stay on HCG until you have the balls to start TRT. ; ) Seriously, I'm on HCG mono for the time being, and I know there are overall health benefits and at least some subjective benefits to doing so, with nominal risk. Much better than being hypogonadal for numerous reasons.

 

[powerlifterty16]

I would say it is better to stay on HCG until you have the balls to start TRT. ; ) Seriously, I'm on HCG mono for the time being, and I know there are overall health benefits and at least some subjective benefits to doing so, with nominal risk. Much better than being hypogonadal for numerous reasons.

I just hope my doc prescribes me more of it. he told me he wants to cycle me on and off..and didnt even want to prescribe it for me in the first place. I am running out of medicine soon, and i see him in about 15 days.

He prescribed 300 iu 3x per week, and i ''may be'' taking 400 iu instead. 300 seemed low

 

[Keith Willse]

HCG Mono works well in younger men, when done properly. The problem is in most cases the dose titration is not done properly. Dose titration should be done based on clinical data and how the patient feels. The T to E ratio is crucial. Radom dosages without regular lab work will constitute to failure. It can also create the need for additional therapies and medications, when it’s not needed

 

[paco]

HCG Mono works well in younger men, when done properly. The problem is in most cases the dose titration is not done properly. Dose titration should be done based on clinical data and how the patient feels. The T to E ratio is crucial. Radom dosages without regular lab work will constitute to failure. It can also create the need for additional therapies and medications, when it's not needed

Keith, can you explain why it would work better in a young man than in an older man, assuming they are both secondary hypogonadal and otherwise comparable in health and co-morbidities, etc?

 

[Gene Devine]

Keith, can you explain why it would work better in a young man than in an older man, assuming they are both secondary hypogonadal and otherwise comparable in health and co-morbidities, etc?

One reason is that younger men tend to have more receptor sites on their leydig cells than older men hence younger men are more responsive and productive.

 

[Keith Willse]

paco, exactly what the wise one above just said

 

[Keith Willse]

Paco, Here is a plan English explanation from Jeffrey Dach MD's website.
Younger males have plenty of reserve ability to make testosterone, and testosterone levels will promptly go up after an injection of HCG. In older males, above the age of 50, the aging process reduces the ability of the testicle to make testosterone to a variable degree. Some older males will have a good response to HCG, other will have a small response, with small amounts of testosterone production.

 

[paco]

So, I'm a relatively young guy. (I'm 37.) I take HCG monotherapy and my testosterone levels and estrogen levels seem to be in a good place. However, my energy and moderately depressed mood are still pretty variable from day to day, and I've seen little, if any, improvement in libido, and the confidence I once had is still not fully back. Can I expect that TRT will further improve how I feel, or is that just a pipe dream?

I know there are many variables affecting symptomatic outcomes, but let's assume for this discussion that my sleep, diet, thyroid, adrenal function, etc. are all in a good place, as I believe they are after a lot of research and investigation...

 

[Gene Devine]

So, I'm a relatively young guy. (I'm 37.) I take HCG monotherapy and my testosterone levels and estrogen levels seem to be in a good place. However, my energy and moderately depressed mood are still pretty variable from day to day, and I've seen little, if any, improvement in libido, and the confidence I once had is still not fully back. Can I expect that TRT will further improve how I feel, or is that just a pipe dream?

I know there are many variables affecting symptomatic outcomes, but let's assume for this discussion that my sleep, diet, thyroid, adrenal function, etc. are all in a good place, as I believe they are after a lot of research and investigation...

Nothing can replicate what testosterone supplementation can do...and I mean nothing paco.

If you really want the results you need to supplement with Testosterone in some form.

 

[paco]

Nothing can replicate what testosterone supplementation can do...and I mean nothing paco.

If you really want the results you need to supplement with Testosterone in some form.

Thank you, Gene. That's what I've gathered. My time will come soon. : )

 

[powerlifterty16]

[h=5]just got my blood results back. I took my results on a monday before injection.
I inject m, w, f..so was at my lowest level.

I take hcg ONLY

I had shocking results.
My cholesterol went from 220 to 181, with no change in diet, except maybe eating more cookies LOL

prolactin went up also. it is usually about 3-4, but was 11 this time.
estrogen was too high at 44(not sensitive assay)

big dissapointment was my testosterone was 478, and free t was 11.9(9.3-26)
I was hoping my t was in the 700s.

24, and even on hcg i have 478..wtf? on clomid my t went to 631...lol[/b]

 

[powerlifterty16]

what kind of failure of a 24 yr old has 478 tt with low fre t, high prolactin, and high estrogen while using 400 iu hcg 3x per week rofl..def glad about cholesterol though, thought it would be 240 LOL..although hdl did go down, but ldl went from 150 something to 122.

 

[powerlifterty16]

prolactin

...........

 

[Nelson Vergel]

LDL, HDL and triglycerides go down with androgens (all good things except for HDL)

400 IU three times per week to attain a 478 ng/dL total testosterone is not bad. Of course, this tells you that you probably have to go up to 500 or inject 400 4 times a week. Estradiol always goes up with HCG but yours is not bad.

 

[powerlifterty16]

thanks nelson, I think i will try 500. Ill see what the dr says. I may have to cut him loose if he doesnt help. If he doesnt help im just going to pay a wellness clinic, that someone in the area reccomended.

Problem is, he prescribed me 300 iu 3x per week. I think im just going to tell him that I took 400 iu in the past with another doc, and since ididnt feel better on 300, i upped it to 400....idk...ill see what happens i guess.

and tbh man, my hdl was like 46 last time i think, with a 151 ldl and 216 total cholesterol.....so my numbers improved A LOT.