Trt-clomid-low shbg

[Charliebizz]

Hey guys.im a low shbg guy. A few years ago I used clomid for restarts. And just to avoid trt. It always raised my shbg a good amount. I was wondering if you used a small amount of clomid while on trt would it still be able to raise shbg ? Or would the exogenous testosterone mess with it's ability to raise shbg ?

When I was on low dose clomid (12.5) mg eod I didn't have much side effects. And it did raise tt but my free t wasnt great. I understand clomid and trt didn't work well for guys trying to keep the hpta intact or testicle size up. But just something I was thinking about

 

[Cataceous]

It's a good question, and I hesitate to make a prediction. I'm leaning towards some effect, but considerably less than when TRT is not involved. The zuclomiphene is probably the main reason that Clomid raises SHBG, given that enclomiphene alone doesn't do it. But as you suggest, with TRT in play you have the exogenous testosterone counteracting the presumed SHBG-raising ability of the estrogenic zuclomiphene.

Under these circumstances I might suspect similar results from taking estrogen in some form.

 

[Charliebizz]

It's a good question, and I hesitate to make a prediction. I'm leaning towards some effect, but considerably less than when TRT is not involved. The zuclomiphene is probably the main reason that Clomid raises SHBG, given that enclomiphene alone doesn't do it. But as you suggest, with TRT in play you have the exogenous testosterone counteracting the presumed SHBG-raising ability of the estrogenic zuclomiphene.

Under these circumstances I might suspect similar results from taking estrogen in some form.

I’m thinking about trying the combo and see if I get any benefits. at 12.5 eod clomid Monotherapy I didn’t have any real side effects. But I do always wonder about the long term sides of where the clomid actually blocks estrogen.

 

[goolapsh]

I’m thinking about trying the combo and see if I get any benefits. at 12.5 eod clomid Monotherapy I didn’t have any real side effects. But I do always wonder about the long term sides of where the clomid actually blocks estrogen.

These are my thoughts as well. I def notice an arimidex like effect when taking Enclomiphene at higher doses

 

[TRicker]

I’m thinking about trying the combo and see if I get any benefits. at 12.5 eod clomid Monotherapy I didn’t have any real side effects. But I do always wonder about the long term sides of where the clomid actually blocks estrogen.

Did you ever try adding the clomid to your TRT? I have low shbg as well, so I was just curious.

 

[Charliebizz]

I did not. Not sure if I want to even bother with it

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Low SHBG here too. Can clomid permanently raise SHBG?

 

[Omi7276]

It's a good question, and I hesitate to make a prediction. I'm leaning towards some effect, but considerably less than when TRT is not involved. The zuclomiphene is probably the main reason that Clomid raises SHBG, given that enclomiphene alone doesn't do it. But as you suggest, with TRT in play you have the exogenous testosterone counteracting the presumed SHBG-raising ability of the estrogenic zuclomiphene.

Under these circumstances I might suspect similar results from taking estrogen in some form.

Can you suggest Estradiol valerate oral dose ? I have low estradiol (in 20s on 200 mg a week of test e and 500 iu HCG EOD protocol. Off the chart freeT and DHT. SHBG 20-25 )
Would it be any better to take estradiol valerate in injection form ?

 

[Cataceous]

Can you suggest Estradiol valerate oral dose ? ...

Only based on theory and my response to dose. Wikipedia says the oral bioavailability is 3-5%. Estradiol valerate is about 76% estradiol. In my experience with injections, it seemed as though each 10 mcg of estradiol raised my serum estradiol by about 10 pg/mL. Therefore, a very rough estimate is that each 0.33 mg of oral estradiol valerate would raise my serum estradiol by 10 pg/mL.

You would have better control if you used injections instead of oral dosing. Then you might be looking at each 10-20 mcg of estradiol valerate boosting serum levels by 10 pg/mL.

You might consider a more physiological dose of testosterone. Your high DHT in particular may be having negative effects on estrogenic activity. DHT has some aromatase-inhibiting ability and also works via competitive inhibition at estrogen receptors.

 

[Omi7276]

Only based on theory and my response to dose. Wikipedia says the oral bioavailability is 3-5%. Estradiol valerate is about 76% estradiol. In my experience with injections, it seemed as though each 10 mcg of estradiol raised my serum estradiol by about 10 pg/mL. Therefore, a very rough estimate is that each 0.33 mg of oral estradiol valerate would raise my serum estradiol by 10 pg/mL.

You would have better control if you used injections instead of oral dosing. Then you might be looking at each 10-20 mcg of estradiol valerate boosting serum levels by 10 pg/mL.

You might consider a more physiological dose of testosterone. Your high DHT in particular may be having negative effects on estrogenic activity. DHT has some aromatase-inhibiting ability and also works via competitive inhibition at estrogen receptors.

I am not good enough at science as you, but I read on some forum regarding oral estradiol valerate leaving less of the estrone metabolite (supposedly bad ) than injectable estradiol.
Also read that only oral estradiol valerate is good at bumping up SHBG.
One of the forum's said you need to take oral version twice a day, since oral estradiol valerate starts dropping in 12 hrs and dropping levels gives crazy migraines.
Can you please shed light on some of the above claims ?
How long shall this estradiol valerate take to show improvement in symptoms?
Also, do you have any idea if high estradiol dose can cause breathlessness?

 

[Cataceous]

I'm not sure about differences in estrone production between oral estradiol valerate and injections, but in general oral produces a lot more metabolites that affect blood clotting and such. So I would assign higher risk to oral.

With these extra metabolites it's plausible that oral would be more effective in raising SHBG; I have no idea if this is the case, however.

The half-life for oral is cited as 12-20 hours, so it's possible that sensitive individuals would notice the fluctuations.

I believe you could notice some differences in symptoms within a week or two, but a final evaluation should wait until after at least 6-8 weeks of treatment.

I don't recall hearing of estradiol causing breathlessness. I can speculate that an effect on fluid balance might indirectly lead to such sensations.

 

[Omi7276]

Ok great .
I will initially go with e2V oral just to check if it helps with symptoms and SHBG levels, hopefully 4 weeks @ 1mg everyday . Will this affect the normal range of total T to E2 ratio I should be looking for ? Where shall that ratio lie according to you ?
I also recollect Nelson mentioning somewhere that he takes e2V oral as well.

 

[Cataceous]

You should improve your E2/T ratio with this trial. Estradiol in the 20s pg/mL may be low for such a high dose of testosterone — though not necessarily if SHBG is also low. Low SHBG suppresses both total estradiol and total testosterone. I consider the normal range for E2/T to be 0.3-0.6%. As an example, suppose testosterone is 1,000 ng/dL and estradiol is 20 pg/mL, which is 2 ng/dL. Then E2/T = 2 / 1,000 = 0.2%.

 

[Omi7276]

You should improve your E2/T ratio with this trial. Estradiol in the 20s pg/mL may be low for such a high dose of testosterone — though not necessarily if SHBG is also low. Low SHBG suppresses both total estradiol and total testosterone. I consider the normal range for E2/T to be 0.3-0.6%. As an example, suppose testosterone is 1,000 ng/dL and estradiol is 20 pg/mL, which is 2 ng/dL. Then E2/T = 2 / 1,000 = 0.2%.

To be honest I don't know how much I can rely on labs , coz I have mentioned before that labs in my country use ECLIA n not equilibrium dialysis. Don't know if the whole ratio thing applies to me . My broader Target is to try increase my SHBG and see if it helps .

 

[Omi7276]

Only based on theory and my response to dose. Wikipedia says the oral bioavailability is 3-5%. Estradiol valerate is about 76% estradiol. In my experience with injections, it seemed as though each 10 mcg of estradiol raised my serum estradiol by about 10 pg/mL. Therefore, a very rough estimate is that each 0.33 mg of oral estradiol valerate would raise my serum estradiol by 10 pg/mL.

You would have better control if you used injections instead of oral dosing. Then you might be looking at each 10-20 mcg of estradiol valerate boosting serum levels by 10 pg/mL.

You might consider a more physiological dose of testosterone. Your high DHT in particular may be having negative effects on estrogenic activity. DHT has some aromatase-inhibiting ability and also works via competitive inhibition at estrogen receptors.

I am currently at 200 mg test e weekly with 500 iu EOD HCG . How much do you suggest I should go with to reduce DHT ?
Also started with 1 mg E2 valerate today .
Having a bit of palpitations and headaches. Have I taken too much or should I wait for it to adjust ?

 

[Cataceous]

The physiological range of testosterone production is equivalent to roughly 30-90 mg testosterone enanthate per week. If you want to account for lack of variation in serum testosterone then an additional 10-20% is plausible. This would represent a large drop for you, which is often uncomfortable for a while. You could try reducing by a few milligrams per week to ease the transition, though it will take more time this way.

The best way to tell if you've taken too much estradiol valerate is to get a measurement of serum estradiol. Anything else is guesswork.

 

[Omi7276]

The physiological range of testosterone production is equivalent to roughly 30-90 mg testosterone enanthate per week. If you want to account for lack of variation in serum testosterone then an additional 10-20% is plausible. This would represent a large drop for you, which is often uncomfortable for a while. You could try reducing by a few milligrams per week to ease the transition, though it will take more time this way.

The best way to tell if you've taken too much estradiol valerate is to get a measurement of serum estradiol. Anything else is guesswork.

So 100 mg per week of test e should be fine, right ? I guess HCG would also contribute to some testosterone and I would still be in higher end of the range .
I just started estradiol valerate today . Would it make sense to get blood tested tomorrow?

 

[Cataceous]

So 100 mg per week of test e should be fine, right ? I guess HCG would also contribute to some testosterone and I would still be in higher end of the range .
I just started estradiol valerate today . Would it make sense to get blood tested tomorrow?

Many men do ok with 100 mg TE/TC per week, though it's still a fairly high dose. It was too much for me, and over the years I have lowered my dose to effectively less than 50 mg/week. Keep an open mind about further reductions in case you continue to have problems. HCG can contribute some endogenous testosterone production, but the amount seems to vary greatly between individuals. If possible wait a few more days before testing your levels. Serum levels are typically considered stable after five half-lives. In case the longer figure of 20 hours applies to you it would be good to aim for four days after starting. If you need answers sooner then recognize that serum estradiol could continue to rise after any tests done before the four days have elapsed.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

So 100 mg per week of test e should be fine, right ? I guess HCG would also contribute to some testosterone and I would still be in higher end of the range .
I just started estradiol valerate today . Would it make sense to get blood tested tomorrow?

I'll be very interested in your symptom results since I also have very low e2. What symptoms are you having?

 

[Omi7276]

I'll be very interested in your symptom results ftsince I also have very low e2. What symptoms are you having?

Same old low SHBG, low E2 symptoms
- Joint pain
- brittle hair
- dry skin
- low libido
- ED
- Fat gain around mid section
- loss of muscle tone
- excercise intolerance
- crippling fatigue
- anhedonia
- hyperventilation/ shortness of breath
- Temperature fluctuations ( feet and hand always cold )

To name a few.