To TRT or to not TRT. Testosterone Enanthate + HCG

[jacktrade]

Hi

I've read hundreds of posts related to testosterone and hcg dosages, but I can't make my mind due to all the contradictory info found on how to approach my TRT therapy.

Some background: 38 yo male, low libido, anxiety, brain fog, moderate-severe depression, difficulty to gain muscle mass - I work out constantly 3-4x/week.

Medical history: I've had multiple ENT surgeries performed to have removed nasal polyps(8x) due to AERD (Aspirin Exacerbated Respiratory Disease/Samter's Triade) = Nasal polyps+Asthma+Allergy to Aspirin and NSAIDS.

I've run a blood panel recently and my Total testosterone is 345 ng/dl. Low FSH and LH [FSH=1.12 UI/L(1.4-18.1 UI/L)], LH=1.60 UI/L[(1.5-9.30)].

I suspect I have a form of secondary hypogonadism.

Do you guys think that injecting 125 mg Testosterone Enanthate 2x/week, Mo and Thu with HCG 500 IU split 2x/week is safe? I want to preserve my fertility, thus the hcg. Will my blood values stabilize enough in one month or 6 weeks to notice any benefit off it, in terms of well-being? I'm using www.steroidplotter.com to optimize my TRT. Is 125 mg/week too much, or should I go for 100 mg/week? My goals are to get my test levels in the 600-700 ng/dl range and no more.

I've opted for shooting E3 days instead of E3.5 days as others have had and I'll adjust my injection schedule if required.

The reason I want to run this for one month and the low dosages is because I don't want to suppress my HTPA axis completely and quit cold turkey if I'll notice any side effects.

I'm a MD myself and I'm pretty cautious about this, but all the info that I have is from online sources. My endocrinologist is not into TRT and there isn't someone else to go to where I live.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you

 

[bochinit]

I don't think is cool to get on and then out. You don't want to stay at trt to feel better?

100mg - 150mg is a good start point.

 

[Cataceous]

Given your concerns you might want to consider a trial of testosterone nasal gel instead, e.g. Natesto. This could give you a sense of the benefits of higher testosterone with less risk of HPTA suppression.

If you do opt for injections then note: Assuming a half-life for enanthate of five days then on E3.5D injections you might expect a serum testosterone peak around 50% greater than the trough value. Blood levels may stabilize in one to two months, though full benefits can take a lot longer. Be sure to read: Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved
I would start with 100 mg or less of enanthate.

 

[jacktrade]

Given your concerns you might want to consider a trial of testosterone nasal gel instead, e.g. Natesto. This could give you a sense of the benefits of higher testosterone with less risk of HPTA suppression.

If you do opt for injections then note: Assuming a half-life for enanthate of five days then on E3.5D injections you might expect a serum testosterone peak around 50% greater than the trough value. Blood levels may stabilize in one to two months, though full benefits can take a lot longer. Be sure to read: Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved
I would start with 100 mg or less of enanthate.

Natesto is not available where I live.
I'm already on Androgel which has no effect what-so-ever. I think I'll start with 100 mg/week of test E.

 

[Vince]

Hi

I've read hundreds of posts related to testosterone and hcg dosages, but I can't make my mind due to all the contradictory info found on how to approach my TRT therapy.

Some background: 38 yo male, low libido, anxiety, brain fog, moderate-severe depression, difficulty to gain muscle mass - I work out constantly 3-4x/week.

Medical history: I've had multiple ENT surgeries performed to have removed nasal polyps(8x) due to AERD (Aspirin Exacerbated Respiratory Disease/Samter's Triade) = Nasal polyps+Asthma+Allergy to Aspirin and NSAIDS.

I've run a blood panel recently and my Total testosterone is 345 ng/dl. Low FSH and LH [FSH=1.12 UI/L(1.4-18.1 UI/L)], LH=1.60 UI/L[(1.5-9.30)].

I suspect I have a form of secondary hypogonadism.

Do you guys think that injecting 125 mg Testosterone Enanthate 2x/week, Mo and Thu with HCG 500 IU split 2x/week is safe? I want to preserve my fertility, thus the hcg. Will my blood values stabilize enough in one month or 6 weeks to notice any benefit off it, in terms of well-being? I'm using www.steroidplotter.com to optimize my TRT. Is 125 mg/week too much, or should I go for 100 mg/week? My goals are to get my test levels in the 600-700 ng/dl range and no more.

I've opted for shooting E3 days instead of E3.5 days as others have had and I'll adjust my injection schedule if required.

The reason I want to run this for one month and the low dosages is because I don't want to suppress my HTPA axis completely and quit cold turkey if I'll notice any side effects.

I'm a MD myself and I'm pretty cautious about this, but all the info that I have is from online sources. My endocrinologist is not into TRT and there isn't someone else to go to where I live.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you

I like your protocol but the odds are you won’t preserve your Ability to make babies. I wonder if there’s some meds that you are on, that’s cause your low T?

 

[jacktrade]

I like your protocol but the odds are you won’t preserve your Ability to make babies. I wonder if there’s some meds that you are on, that’s cause your low T?

I am chronically taking an antihistamine medication every single day, because I have chronic rhinorrhea, being extremely allergic (atopia). I'm on treatment with an corticosteroid for my asthma (salmeterol/fluticazone). I do not take other medication. I do take a daily dose of vit D, 10.000 UI and fish oil capsules.

I'm trying to hit my macros and to eat 1,5-2 g of protein/lbs of BW. I eat rather clean, no sugar, no soda, no fructose and I have a diversified healthy diet. I run twice a week 5-10 k and hit the gym 4x/week.

Except my sex hormones, my blood panel values are all in normal range. Low triglycerides, HDL over the normal range, low LDL except for a slight eosinophilia due to my allergic syndrome.

I'd like to ask you why do you thing I will not be able to preserve my fertility if I'll add HCG? I was thinking of shooting up to 1500 UI/week in 3 shots.

My endocrinologist actually recommended I'd take 5000 IU of hcg weekly in one shot, for 9 weeks with topically applied Androgel.
Androgel which so far hasn't increased my test, my test rather decreased from July 2nd when it was 471 ng/dl to 345 ng /dl, both blood samples taken in the morning around 10 a.m. I haven't shot any hcg as of yet.

July 24th
Total testosterone=345 ng/dl (1.64-7.53)
Estradiol=25 pg/ml
FSH=1.12 UI/L (1.4-18.1)
LH=1.60 UI/L (1.50-9.30)
SHBG=32.45 nmol/L (14.55-94.64)
Prolactine=12.38 ng/ml (2.1-17.7)


July 2nd
Total testosterone=471 ng/dl
Estradiol=10 pg/ml (11.3-43.20)
FSH=2.63 UI/L
LH=2.00 UI/L
SHBG=38.73 nmol/L
Prolactine=8.43 ng/ml

As you've said Vince, something is off, maybe my over the years long intake of asthma medication and corticosteroids has something to do. My FSH and LH are worrying me being so low. I am reluctant to start TRT, but I've reached to a point I will give 1st HCG a shot (1500 UI/week) and see if my FSH and LH will increase (theoretically they should) and hopefully I will not have a bad case of testosterone aromatization to estrogen, which itself is low.

 

[Cataceous]

Your LH and FSH will likely end up close to zero. HCG is meant as an LH replacement, not an LH stimulator For the latter you'd need a SERM such as enclomiphene—and no TRT/hCG. Many men do retain fertility on the TRT/hCG combination, but it's not a sure thing. HCG use still suppresses the rest of the HPTA apart from the testicles. A SERM is best for fertility and normal HPTA operation, but we don't see many guys getting good long-term subjective results with these treatments. I'm getting good LH and FSH values, along with good subjective results from an unusual TRT/SERM/GnRH combination therapy.

With Androgel, you're getting HPTA suppression and insufficient testosterone replacement. I had the same problem. It may be possible to get dialed in with larger and multiple daily doses. But absorption can be variable and I didn't think it was worth the hassle compared to the consistency of injections.

 

[jacktrade]

Thank you.
Then I might just stop applying Androgel, put hcg on hold and run new labs in one month time. I'm miserable. Even though I'm getting quality sleep hours lately, nothing has improved, my head is all over the place. I have an important exam coming up and this mental state doesn't help me.

 

[jacktrade]

It seems I'm stuck. Even though I could write my own prescriptions to buy my GnRH from the peptide store you've mentioned in the other thread, I don't live in US and my prescription is therefore useless.

 

[Cataceous]

With your numbers and age I would try either low doses of a SERM or a nasal gel, if available. Only if these fail to yield improvements would I consider full-on TRT or TRT/hCG. The pharmacokinetics of nasal gel is different from that of Androgel; with nasal gel the testosterone peaks are short enough that HPTA suppression is largely avoided. With Androgel, the skin acts as a slow-release reservoir, giving a release duration of at least half a day.

GnRH therapy is really only practical with an infusion pump, and even that's going to be a hassle compared to testosterone injections. In its favor, as monotherapy it is a recognized treatment for hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Nonetheless, I wouldn't think about it until all the more common treatments have failed to give decent results.

 

[3DMission]

Sounds like my experience was similar to yours. Androgel did not work, my body didn’t absorb the T from the gel or the patch. I went on Testosterone Cyp. injections and experienced testicular atrophy and numbers dropped to zero across the board for fertility. However, I finally felt normal again...like a man (even with atrophy, lol). It was a HUGE relief after so many years of feeling incredibly low. My wife and I wanted to conceive so I found an endocrinologist that knew the science well behind TRT/HCG. She put me on 3,000 Iu’s/day of HCG mono therapy. Yes, 3k! What’s key to limiting aromatase with these high doses is an extremely concentrated dilution. I’d have to research what I did, but it was very minimal water mixed with HCG. She couldn’t explain why the concentrate works better, but it does. I tried a lighter dilution (more water to HCG) and estrogen levels went through the roof. Once we conceived, I scaled back HCG to 300 units/2x week and T at 125 every 3.5 days. I’ve been on this protocol for the past two years and it’s works perfectly. T numbers in the 600-700 range, little trough, and minimal atrophy. I just had a sperm analysis and all levels are normal range except for sperm count, that was at 8 million. Normal is at least 15 million or more for fertility. My wife and I have been discussing whether or not I should go back to HCG mono for us to have another baby.....buttttt....low and behold she just found out she’s pregnant! (Yes, I’m the father for all you naysayers out there). So this is truly amazing, pregnant with 8 million sperm count while on TRT/HCG.

I think the routine you were interested in is perfect. 125 mg T 2x week and 300 HCG 2x week. I recommend Cypionate over Enanthate.

 

[madman]

Sounds like my experience was similar to yours. Androgel did not work, my body didn’t absorb the T from the gel or the patch. I went on Testosterone Cyp. injections and experienced testicular atrophy and numbers dropped to zero across the board for fertility. However, I finally felt normal again...like a man (even with atrophy, lol). It was a HUGE relief after so many years of feeling incredibly low. My wife and I wanted to conceive so I found an endocrinologist that knew the science well behind TRT/HCG. She put me on 3,000 Iu’s/day of HCG mono therapy. Yes, 3k! What’s key to limiting aromatase with these high doses is an extremely concentrated dilution. I’d have to research what I did, but it was very minimal water mixed with HCG. She couldn’t explain why the concentrate works better, but it does. I tried a lighter dilution (more water to HCG) and estrogen levels went through the roof. Once we conceived, I scaled back HCG to 300 units/2x week and T at 125 every 3.5 days. I’ve been on this protocol for the past two years and it’s works perfectly. T numbers in the 600-700 range, little trough, and minimal atrophy. I just had a sperm analysis and all levels are normal range except for sperm count, that was at 8 million. Normal is at least 15 million or more for fertility. My wife and I have been discussing whether or not I should go back to HCG mono for us to have another baby.....buttttt....low and behold she just found out she’s pregnant! (Yes, I’m the father for all you naysayers out there). So this is truly amazing, pregnant with 8 million sperm count while on TRT/HCG.

I think the routine you were interested in is perfect. 125 mg T 2x week and 300 HCG 2x week. I recommend Cypionate over Enanthate.

125mg/week T (62.5mg every 3.5 days), need to be more specific here.

 

[3DMission]

Yes! You’re right, thank you for clarifying. I just went back and looked at my exact protocol and posted a new thread on my story. It can be found here: HCG and Testosterone Cypionate and wife is pregnant!!!!

My current protocol is actually 160 mg/week with .4 injections every 3.5 days of T Cyp. That’s 80mg per .4 injection, 2x week which is 160mg total per week. I stagger HCG injection of 300 IU’s 2x week in between the T injections, so that’s actually 600 IU’s per week, with 300 IU’s per injection. Attached is my dilution ratio, as it must be diluted like this for .1 injection to equal 300 IU’s.

 

[Simon7]

@jacktrade , you should consult with an experienced TRT physician. Dr. Saya of Defy Medical is well recommended and offers phone consultations.

 

[Nik]

Sounds like my experience was similar to yours. Androgel did not work, my body didn’t absorb the T from the gel or the patch. I went on Testosterone Cyp. injections and experienced testicular atrophy and numbers dropped to zero across the board for fertility. However, I finally felt normal again...like a man (even with atrophy, lol). It was a HUGE relief after so many years of feeling incredibly low. My wife and I wanted to conceive so I found an endocrinologist that knew the science well behind TRT/HCG. She put me on 3,000 Iu’s/day of HCG mono therapy. Yes, 3k! What’s key to limiting aromatase with these high doses is an extremely concentrated dilution. I’d have to research what I did, but it was very minimal water mixed with HCG. She couldn’t explain why the concentrate works better, but it does. I tried a lighter dilution (more water to HCG) and estrogen levels went through the roof. Once we conceived, I scaled back HCG to 300 units/2x week and T at 125 every 3.5 days. I’ve been on this protocol for the past two years and it’s works perfectly. T numbers in the 600-700 range, little trough, and minimal atrophy. I just had a sperm analysis and all levels are normal range except for sperm count, that was at 8 million. Normal is at least 15 million or more for fertility. My wife and I have been discussing whether or not I should go back to HCG mono for us to have another baby.....buttttt....low and behold she just found out she’s pregnant! (Yes, I’m the father for all you naysayers out there). So this is truly amazing, pregnant with 8 million sperm count while on TRT/HCG.

I think the routine you were interested in is perfect. 125 mg T 2x week and 300 HCG 2x week. I recommend Cypionate over Enanthate.

Executive 7 wat is shbg?

 

[3DMission]

My Sex Hormone Binding Globulin has always been low, I think somewhere around 18, 12-20 range.

 

[jacktrade]

125mg/week T (62.5mg every 3.5 days), need to be more specific here.

It's clear to me how to split the dosages and steroidplotter.com is of great help, showing you the highs and the lows.

HCG dilution is no brainer if you pay attention.

These are the the U-100 syringes I planned on using:

Diabetyk24

BD MICRO-FINE PLUS INSULIN SYRINGES U-100 1ML 0,33MM (29G) X 12,7MM - BOX OF 100 in Diabetic24.com

diabetic24.com

If I'll reconstitute the 5000 IU hcg in 1 ml of water and use the 1cc (1 ml) insulin syringe (29 G needle), that would mean 500 IU per 10 Units (0.1 ml) on the syringe.

1 ml bacteriostatic water........... 5000 IU HCG
0.1 ml (10 Units).........................x
_______________________________
Therefore: X = 500 IU per 10 Units on the U-100 syringe

Adjust accordingly depending on the syringe type used.

There are:

1cc equals (1ml) (U-100 syringe)
0.5 ml equals 1/2cc
3/10cc equals 0.3ml.

 

[jacktrade]

Sounds like my experience was similar to yours. Androgel did not work, my body didn’t absorb the T from the gel or the patch. I went on Testosterone Cyp. injections and experienced testicular atrophy and numbers dropped to zero across the board for fertility. However, I finally felt normal again...like a man (even with atrophy, lol). It was a HUGE relief after so many years of feeling incredibly low. My wife and I wanted to conceive so I found an endocrinologist that knew the science well behind TRT/HCG. She put me on 3,000 Iu’s/day of HCG mono therapy. Yes, 3k! What’s key to limiting aromatase with these high doses is an extremely concentrated dilution. I’d have to research what I did, but it was very minimal water mixed with HCG. She couldn’t explain why the concentrate works better, but it does. I tried a lighter dilution (more water to HCG) and estrogen levels went through the roof. Once we conceived, I scaled back HCG to 300 units/2x week and T at 125 every 3.5 days. I’ve been on this protocol for the past two years and it’s works perfectly. T numbers in the 600-700 range, little trough, and minimal atrophy. I just had a sperm analysis and all levels are normal range except for sperm count, that was at 8 million. Normal is at least 15 million or more for fertility. My wife and I have been discussing whether or not I should go back to HCG mono for us to have another baby.....buttttt....low and behold she just found out she’s pregnant! (Yes, I’m the father for all you naysayers out there). So this is truly amazing, pregnant with 8 million sperm count while on TRT/HCG.

I think the routine you were interested in is perfect. 125 mg T 2x week and 300 HCG 2x week. I recommend Cypionate over Enanthate.

Why Cypionate over Enanthate? Can you please elaborate?

 

[3DMission]

Where do you get a 5,000 IU vial of HCG? Mine comes in 12k.

My Endo said Cypionate is better for building muscle. She said she doesn’t know why, but that from her years of experience, Cypionate always seems to work better for guys than Enanthate. She couldn’t give me a scientific answer as to why, just that’s what’s been her experience. For me she was right, I felt noticeably better on Cypionate. I don’t believe this was a placebo effect. I’ve switched back to Enanthate over the years and it just doesn’t feel the same.

 

[madman]

Where do you get a 5,000 IU vial of HCG? Mine comes in 12k.

My Endo said Cypionate is better for building muscle. She said she doesn’t know why, but that from her years of experience, Cypionate always seems to work better for guys than Enanthate. She couldn’t give me a scientific answer as to why, just that’s what’s been her experience. For me she was right, I felt noticeably better on Cypionate. I don’t believe this was a placebo effect. I’ve switched back to Enanthate over the years and it just doesn’t feel the same.

No disrespect but that is a crock of S**T!