Thinking of stopping my AI. Thoughts.

[akizal]

i always battled e2 sides unless going 100 or less. currently experimenting on 300 per week no ai. crisler talked about this if you take the dose high enough you can negate e2 sides. so far so good.

very interesting, i wonder what that amount is ? does 200 mg do it ? or 250 ? or you already gave those a shot ?

 

[BradWI]

I think one issues is that some of us weren't given a choice. Our protocol started off with AI so we just took it.

Over 1.5 years my E2 has gone from 33 to 27 to 20 . I was started on .25 mg AI three times a week and reduced it to twice a week 6 months ago. Now, I'm not a statistician but I can see an E2 trendline developing there....

Two weeks ago I decided to stop taking it. You won't believe what happened after!

Well nothing much really happened. I'll report back periodically.

If there's minimal benefit and there is potential for harm I don't get why people on here are such staunch advocates of it. As far as long term use goes, it's not up to me to prove that it's harmful, it's up to you (science) to prove that it's safe! That's how drug trials work LOL.

 

[Vince Carter]

What?

I don't get why people on here are such staunch advocates of it.

 

[tmaxey1]

I think one issues is that some of us weren't given a choice. Our protocol started off with AI so we just took it.

Over 1.5 years my E2 has gone from 33 to 27 to 20 . I was started on .25 mg AI three times a week and reduced it to twice a week 6 months ago. Now, I'm not a statistician but I can see an E2 trendline developing there....

Two weeks ago I decided to stop taking it. You won't believe what happened after!

Well nothing much really happened. I'll report back periodically.

If there's minimal benefit and there is potential for harm I don't get why people on here are such staunch advocates of it. As far as long term use goes, it's not up to me to prove that it's harmful, it's up to you (science) to prove that it's safe! That's how drug trials work LOL.

I’m a little confused on your E2 levels. Are you saying your E2 is dropping with less AI?

I don’t see any advocates of AIs. I see some people who benefit from them who don’t like people spreading unproven information about them..stuff like “harm to your biological systems”.

I don’t use them currently. I would if my E2 got high enough to cause water retention or tits though.

No one is pushing you to take them.

If you don’t want or need to then awesome.

 

[Pringle]

I’m a little confused on your E2 levels. Are you saying your E2 is dropping with less AI?

I don’t see any advocates of AIs. I see some people who benefit from them who don’t like people spreading unproven information about them..stuff like “harm to your biological systems”.

I don’t use them currently. I would if my E2 got high enough to cause water retention or tits though.

No one is pushing you to take them.

If you don’t want or need to then awesome.

These threads get nauseating to read and the extremism is baffling. I am a person that has a very low tolerance to E2 and when mine reached the 50’s I bloated, very sore breasts, lost libido, and was an emotional train wreck. I tried to “wait it out” and after 4 weeks of progressively gettin’ worse I started an AI regimen of .125 E3.5D. Very conservative dose from my doc and that, coupled with my 50mg T/cyp twice week, was the best I have ever felt on trt. My E2 landed in the low 30’s on this dosage. I went to daily shots a few months ago in hopes to drop AI and lower HCT. I am seriously considering returning to the protocol with a low dose AI just because I felt better on it! We are all different!

 

[Gman86]

These threads get nauseating to read and the extremism is baffling. I am a person that has a very low tolerance to E2 and when mine reached the 50’s I bloated, very sore breasts, lost libido, and was an emotional train wreck. I tried to “wait it out” and after 4 weeks of progressively gettin’ worse I started an AI regimen of .125 E3.5D. Very conservative dose from my doc and that, coupled with my 50mg T/cyp twice week, was the best I have ever felt on trt. My E2 landed in the low 30’s on this dosage. I went to daily shots a few months ago in hopes to drop AI and lower HCT. I am seriously considering returning to the protocol with a low dose AI just because I felt better on it! We are all different!

Do you mind just posting your last total testosterone and free testosterone levels you had done, as well as your last SHBG level? I’m just always curious if guys like you have a lot of free unbound hormones, or if it doesn’t really matter, and if it’s completely individual. Thanks.

 

[Pringle]

Do you mind just posting your last total testosterone and free testosterone levels you had done, as well as your last SHBG level? I’m just always curious if guys like you have a lot of free unbound hormones, or if it doesn’t really matter, and if it’s completely individual. Thanks.

Sure, just got them back last week....
Total T 834
Free T 29.9
SHBG 32.1
E2 43.1
DHEA-s 351.2

 

[Gman86]

Sure, just got them back last week....
Total T 834
Free T 29.9
SHBG 32.1
E2 43.1
DHEA-s 351.2

Awesome thanks. So makes sense why you can't handle a lot of E2. You have a ton of unbound sex hormones. Your SHBG is 32.1, but its as sticky as someone with an even lower SHBG. Either that or mine is just more sticky than most. My SHBG is usually in the low 40's, and to have the free T level you have, my total would need to be 1700+.

So you started a low dose of ai again since these labs? How were you feeling at an E2 of 43.1?

 

[Cataceous]

... Your SHBG is 32.1, but its as sticky as someone with an even lower SHBG. Either that or mine is just more sticky than most. My SHBG is usually in the low 40's, and to have the free T level you have, my total would need to be 1700+.
...

I'm not sure you've seen @madman's posts on free testosterone tests. The bottom line is the standard cheap direct method is unreliable and inaccurate and should not be used to validate any hypotheses on the "stickiness" of SHBG. Most guys do not want to spend the extra money on equilibrium dialysis or ultracentrifugation tests, in which case they should use calculated free T, which for @Pringle is about 19 ng/dL, fairly typical for a guy on TRT.

 

[Gman86]

I'm not sure you've seen @madman's posts on free testosterone tests. The bottom line is the standard cheap direct method is unreliable and inaccurate and should not be used to validate any hypotheses on the "stickiness" of SHBG. Most guys do not want to spend the extra money on equilibrium dialysis or ultracentrifugation tests, in which case they should use calculated free T, which for @Pringle is about 19 ng/dL, fairly typical for a guy on TRT.

How were you able to figure out his calculated free T without his Albumin level?

Also what's the range when testing free T in ng/dl? The standard labcorp range that most guys refer to uses pg/mL.
144980: Testosterone, Free, Direct | LabCorp

I put 19 ng/dl into a converter, but it gives me 190 pg/ml. That can't be right. 190 on labcorp's range would be astronomically high.
pg/mL to ng/dL Converter, Chart -- EndMemo

 

[Pringle]

Awesome thanks. So makes sense why you can't handle a lot of E2. You have a ton of unbound sex hormones. Your SHBG is 32.1, but its as sticky as someone with an even lower SHBG. Either that or mine is just more sticky than most. My SHBG is usually in the low 40's, and to have the free T level you have, my total would need to be 1700+.

So you started a low dose of ai again since these labs? How were you feeling at an E2 of 43.1?






I have not started the AI again. My consult is Friday and plan on starting back after I talk to the doc. Over the past few weeks I started having some high E2 sides again, so I was not surprised when I got the 43.1 result. These AI conversations based on lab numbers, just don’t tell the whole story for some of us. For many that level (43.1)would mean nothing and have no sides at all....T to E ratio is good, so all should be well. For me, my Free T is always significantly above range, while Total T is in range, I suspect my Free E is behaving the same way, causing my issues. A small dose AI regimen just appears to work best for me.

To take the AI is decision I make and I am not not here to sway a persons opinion one way or another. I have a doc that is conservative in the approach of administering the AI and I have never “Crashed” my E2. I guess it is hard for some to realize we are not all a like and all our bodies react differently to TRT......numbers do not tell the whole story, but are clues to help you find the “sweet spot” of where you feel good.

 

[Vince Carter]

I know a guy that is doing his very best on TRT to date with his trough E2 in the single digits.

 

[Gman86]

I know a guy that is doing his very best on TRT to date with his trough E2 in the single digits.

Just goes to prove that we are all different. Not anything new, but doesn't hurt to have it reconfirmed. I assume he uses an ai? And do you happen to know his dose of ai? Just curious.

 

[Logan24]

Good discussion here for a newbie like me. I seem to be very sensitive to e2 levels much above 40. I’ve tried to wait it out but didn’t get much in the way of relief. So I’m constantly struggling with is it better to run higher t with AI or reduce the dose without the AI (currently at 45mg cyp 2x/wk). it sounds like it’s just highly individual and probably no way to tell other than to experiment.

 

[Gman86]

Good discussion here for a newbie like me. I seem to be very sensitive to e2 levels much above 40. I’ve tried to wait it out but didn’t get much in the way of relief. So I’m constantly struggling with is it better to run higher t with AI or reduce the dose without the AI (currently at 45mg cyp 2x/wk). it sounds like it’s just highly individual and probably no way to tell other than to experiment.

Ya it’s a mix of personal preference, and whatever you find works best for you. Obviously where you feel best is hard to say when you haven’t found it yet lol.

I personally like to keep my free T around the top of the range, or a little above. That’s just me though. So I just find the dose that gets me to those free T levels, and if my E2 comes back too high, and I seem to be having high E2 symptoms, I would simply just start running an extremely low dose of ai to start, to see if that helps at all. Again, that’s just how I personally like to do things. Others will probably have different opinions

 

[Logan24]

Ya it’s a mix of personal preference, and whatever you find works best for you. Obviously where you feel best is hard to say when you haven’t found it yet lol.

I personally like to keep my free T around the top of the range, or a little above. That’s just me though. So I just find the dose that gets me to those free T levels, and if my E2 comes back too high, and I seem to be having high E2 symptoms, I would simply just start running an extremely low dose of ai to start, to see if that helps at all. Again, that’s just how I personally like to do things. Others will probably have different opinions

That’s the approach I’m planning on trying first based on our discussion of my shbg.

 

[wsj357]

Really?

We need to look at labs. Where does all this t and HCG get you.

Acne is something many folks get on T. It’s genetic. Same with gyno. I had levels out of the ranges and I had zero acne . My labido tanked and otherwise well being wasn’t any better. Like most things in life less is more.

Also pre trt where were you.

 

[Cataceous]

How were you able to figure out his calculated free T without his Albumin level?

Also what's the range when testing free T in ng/dl? The standard labcorp range that most guys refer to uses pg/mL.
144980: Testosterone, Free, Direct | LabCorp

I put 19 ng/dl into a converter, but it gives me 190 pg/ml. That can't be right. 190 on labcorp's range would be astronomically high.
pg/mL to ng/dL Converter, Chart -- EndMemo

I used the default value of 4.3 for albumin. Calculated free T isn't that sensitive to albumin changes in the normal range, and I did hedge by saying "about".

Weird ranges is another problem with direct free T tests. They end up not being comparable with different labs or with proper absolute numbers. For example, as you're finding, LabCorp's range makes no sense in absolute terms. We know that typically free testosterone is 2-3% of total. At TT of 600 ng/dL this means free T would be around 12-18 ng/dL or 120-180 pg/mL. LabCorp's range is ridiculously low. As bad as this is, it's worse that these tests seem to have large standard deviations and other systematic accuracy problems. Best to not use them. Most guys should always get SHBG with total T and calculate free T. But if you want to see if the "sticky" SHBG idea holds up then you'd need to use one of the fancier free T tests—many times.

 

[Vince Carter]

We need to look at labs. Where does all this t and HCG get you.

Acne is something many folks get on T. It’s genetic. Same with gyno. I had levels out of the ranges and I had zero acne . My labido tanked and otherwise well being wasn’t any better. Like most things in life less is more.

Also pre trt where were you.

Another indication of how we all can differ, not genetic for me. Acne is a key sign my E is up. When my E was out of control my back and arms were destroyed. With my E reduced, my skin is ~99% clear and without using scrubs and potions, either. I also reduced my T dosing and levels during that time, too, but the E made lots of problems for me, acne being a severe one.

 

[wsj357]

Another indication of how we all can differ, not genetic for me. Acne is a key sign my E is up. When my E was out of control my back and arms were destroyed. With my E reduced, my skin is ~99% clear and without using scrubs and potions, either. I also reduced my T dosing and levels during that time, too, but the E made lots of problems for me, acne being a severe one.

Ok interesting I haven’t heard that before. Learn new stuff all the time