Testosterone and HDL

[ivankonst2017]

As long as blood markers remain healthy and you feel well overall the benefits of having healthy testosterone let alone estradiol levels will far outweigh having low/sub-par T levels.

Quality of life.

Testosterone can have an impact on lowering HDL, especially when using high doses.

I would be much more concerned with maintaining healthy estradiol levels which will have a positive impact on lipids.

Driving down estradiol too low with the use of an AI can hammer down HDL let alone have a negative effect on libido, erectile function, muscle, immune system, brain, bone, and cardiovascular health.

Everyone gets so caught up in wanting to achieve healthy let alone high T levels yet overlooks the significant role estradiol plays on men's overall health!

As I have red overview of studies more and more data shows at least half of the benefits from testosterone come from estradiol, nearly the other half from DHT and in that regards test being like a pro hormone.
It is funny how a lot of men on TRT try to inhibit both estradiol and DHT with different drugs.

 

[Larry B]

Thanks for the information. Since I'm already on the high end of normal for estradiol, reducing anastrozole would most likely put me out of range to above normal. There are issues with high estradiol as well.

 

[ivankonst2017]

Thanks for the information. Since I'm already on the high end of normal for estradiol, reducing anastrozole would most likely put me out of range to above normal. There are issues with high estradiol as well.

As what I have seen from other people and myself estradiol is one of those hormones with which you better not mess, no matter the lab values except if you have actual symptoms.
If I ever had high e2 symptoms I would first adjust my dose and frequency to address that, possibly play with shorter/longer esters and so on. What Ive heard even oil can determine the length of half life and from there can affect aromatization

 

[Larry B]

As what I have seen from other people and myself estradiol is one of those hormones with which you better not mess, no matter the lab values except if you have actual symptoms.
If I ever had high e2 symptoms I would first adjust my dose and frequency to address that, possibly play with shorter/longer esters and so on. What Ive heard even oil can determine the length of half life and from there can affect aromatization

Interesting and scary at the same time considering my doctor has had me on anastrozole for the past 11 years to lower estradiol. Is there new science since then? I thought he put me on it because testosterone converts to estradiol which can have negative effects. Most on this thread have suggested that I stop anastrozole. I think I'll take your advice but rather than stopping cold turkey I'll moved from .5 mg a week to .25 a week. Out of curiosity, why is estradiol one of the hormones which we should not mess with?

 

[Larry B]

Does ratio play a role here? To determine the ratio the total cholesterol is divided by the HDL. In my case 143 divided by 39 gives a ratio of 3.6. According to the American Heart Association, you should aim to keep your ratio below 5, with the ideal cholesterol ratio being 3.5

 

[ivankonst2017]

Interesting and scary at the same time considering my doctor has had me on anastrozole for the past 11 years to lower estradiol. Is there new science since then? I thought he put me on it because testosterone converts to estradiol which can have negative effects. Most on this thread have suggested that I stop anastrozole. I think I'll take your advice but rather than stopping cold turkey I'll moved from .5 mg a week to .25 a week. Out of curiosity, why is estradiol one of the hormones which we should not mess with?

Im sure Nelson and other people here are more knowledgeable from me and can supply you with actual studies on the matter. Ive seen them, but cannot find links easily now.

What I have read the ideas for the dangers of what some doctors consider “high” estradiol come from the bodybuilding world and 2-3 flawed studies where association was mistakened for causation.

In other words there was a group of people with different health issues that were not on TRT and had elevated estradiol, so somebody decided the elevated estradiol caused that. The latest research shows it is the other way around - when there are certain issues the body raises aromatization as somehow of a protective mechanism. Estradiol is proven to be anti-inflamatorry, cardio protective, improves bone mineral density, lipids and helps get rid of visceral fat.
The other thing I know is estradiol is a paracrine hormone that is secreted in the tissues and it is highly doubtful how reliable is the estradiol serum test. I think doctor and scientists are still on the debate for that.
The other thing is unfortunately a lot of doctors even in TRT clinics have learned about TRT from the bodybuilding world.

My simple logic as an engineer with some basic TRT knowledge is this - if you raise testosterone, it is normal to raise estrogen proportionally. If for example testosterone is 20 percent above reference range, so it is very natural estradiol to be there as well. Where should your test levels sit is a complete different topic of discussion and I dont wanna get into that.

 

[ivankonst2017]

Interesting and scary at the same time considering my doctor has had me on anastrozole for the past 11 years to lower estradiol. Is there new science since then? I thought he put me on it because testosterone converts to estradiol which can have negative effects. Most on this thread have suggested that I stop anastrozole. I think I'll take your advice but rather than stopping cold turkey I'll moved from .5 mg a week to .25 a week. Out of curiosity, why is estradiol one of the hormones which we should not mess with?

If I were you I would make a dexa scan for my bone mineral density as a start. Just to check and make sure how you sit there, hope its ok

 

[Larry B]

Im sure Nelson and other people here are more knowledgeable from me and can supply you with actual studies on the matter. Ive seen them, but cannot find links easily now.

What I have read the ideas for the dangers of what some doctors consider “high” estradiol come from the bodybuilding world and 2-3 flawed studies where association was mistakened for causation.

In other words there was a group of people with different health issues that were not on TRT and had elevated estradiol, so somebody decided the elevated estradiol caused that. The latest research shows it is the other way around - when there are certain issues the body raises aromatization as somehow of a protective mechanism. Estradiol is proven to be anti-inflamatorry, cardio protective, improves bone mineral density, lipids and helps get rid of visceral fat.
The other thing I know is estradiol is a paracrine hormone that is secreted in the tissues and it is highly doubtful how reliable is the estradiol serum test. I think doctor and scientists are still on the debate for that.
The other thing is unfortunately a lot of doctors even in TRT clinics have learned about TRT from the bodybuilding world.

My simple logic as an engineer with some basic TRT knowledge is this - if you raise testosterone, it is normal to raise estrogen proportionally. If for example testosterone is 20 percent above reference range, so it is very natural estradiol to be there as well. Where should your test levels sit is a complete different topic of discussion and I dont wanna get into that.

Really good info here! Thank you. This is something I need to seriously think about. I think I'll also have a chat with my doc about this.

 

[Jed Dorsey]

I believe testosterone does lower HDL cholesterol. I would think, that's why women usually have higher HDL than men.

Unfortunately not all women brother my wife comes from a bloodline that has historically low HDL. She’s of slender build and watches what she eats to help raise it and the only way she can is by taking statins. Her and I eat the same thing but I have mine in control but I did see it drop when I started TRT. Case by case I think

 

[DragonBits]

To my original question, any suggestions out there to raise HDL outside of what I'm already doing? Do others out there on TRT also have low HDL?

TRT didn't seem to affect my HDL at all.

It was around 40 both before and during TRT.

I tried various supplements but they didn't seem to work for HDL.

Only thing that worked for me to raise HDL was 8 oz of red wine a night. HDL went up to 55-60.

 

[Runnerman]

There is a prescription form of niacin called Niaspan. I’m not sure if it’s a slow release. Before I was ever on TRT, it raised my HDL to a decent 45 level. I’ve always had low overall cholesterol numbers. I found with a lot of endurance exercise (running) I could maintain around 40 without the Niaspan. I do also take fish oil and krill oil to try and boost it. The Niaspan can have side effects of flushing which some people cannot tolerate. You also need to monitor the liver while taking it. But... don’t just go out and take a bunch of a typical niacin from a vitamin store, it can be toxic.

 

[Gman86]

Im sure Nelson and other people here are more knowledgeable from me and can supply you with actual studies on the matter. Ive seen them, but cannot find links easily now.

What I have read the ideas for the dangers of what some doctors consider “high” estradiol come from the bodybuilding world and 2-3 flawed studies where association was mistakened for causation.

In other words there was a group of people with different health issues that were not on TRT and had elevated estradiol, so somebody decided the elevated estradiol caused that. The latest research shows it is the other way around - when there are certain issues the body raises aromatization as somehow of a protective mechanism. Estradiol is proven to be anti-inflamatorry, cardio protective, improves bone mineral density, lipids and helps get rid of visceral fat.
The other thing I know is estradiol is a paracrine hormone that is secreted in the tissues and it is highly doubtful how reliable is the estradiol serum test. I think doctor and scientists are still on the debate for that.
The other thing is unfortunately a lot of doctors even in TRT clinics have learned about TRT from the bodybuilding world.

My simple logic as an engineer with some basic TRT knowledge is this - if you raise testosterone, it is normal to raise estrogen proportionally. If for example testosterone is 20 percent above reference range, so it is very natural estradiol to be there as well. Where should your test levels sit is a complete different topic of discussion and I dont wanna get into that.

The thing is that sometimes the body doesn’t convert the testosterone coming in to metabolites in proper ratios. For instance, there’s guys that for whatever reason convert very little testosterone into DHT. If testosterone doesn’t always convert into the proper amount of DHT for some guys, I would imagine that there’s plenty of guys that have issues with testosterone just not converting into the proper amounts of E2 for their bodies.

The other thing to consider is that most of the time when E2 goes up prolactin goes up as well. Prolactin is basically the opposite of testosterone. Everything positive that testosterone does prolactin basically does the opposite. Testosterone increases dopamine, while prolactin and dopamine have an inverse relationship. As prolactin increases, dopamine decreases. Testosterone improves sexual function, while prolactin makes sexual function worse. In most studies E2 has positive benefit after positive benefit, which it most likely does. Since prolactin usually increases as E2 increases, I theorize that most of the negative effects of “high” E2 actually come from increased prolactin. And I also theorize that most of the benefits that men get from using ai’s actually come from prolactin lowering as E2 lowers, and not directly due to the lowering of their E2. Anytime I’ve used an ai my prolactin significantly decreased, sometimes more than cut in half.

 

[MarcoFL]

I would stop anastrozole. You will see your HDL go up in a few weeks. Also, be careful with growing old with low estradiol since this can lower bone density.

When I dropped the AI I my HDL went up 10 points. I seem to have everything in better shape without it.

 

[Bremster]

I just want say that I have been on TRT for 20 year, I will be 90 next January, a recent blood test shows everything mid range. I work out 6 times per week, 3 aerobic, 3 weight, plus I am sexual active. BMI 23, I have the same waist size 30” and weight 150 pounds I had when I was in high school.

 

[Gman86]

When I dropped the AI I my HDL went up 10 points. I seem to have everything in better shape without it.

what dose of ai were u taking?

 

[Wilson7]

I think the subtle effects of HDL decreases (10 - 20%) with parenteral androgens is clinically insignificant. Attempts to decrease CAD risk with drugs that increase HDL alone have been unsuccessful, yes we can raise HDL but there is no effect on CAD events. No one has shown that decreases in HDL as a function of parenteral androgen administration (not endogenously low HDL bc of familial dysfunctional reverse cholesterol transport) leads to increased risk of CAD. We make that association bc low HDL is associated with increased CAD risk in people not on androgens. Its not that simple. How many years did we think prostate cancer was caused by testosterone based on one very old associative study? My HDL was in the mid-30's for decades from TC and/or ND for HRT, before that it was in the 60's. CT angiogram score a couple of years ago was 0. LDL however is < 65 and non HDL CHOL < 81. Those I feel are more important. I avoid AIs like the plague. There was paper that looked at 30+ years of treatment with oral androgens for HAE, in particular stanazolol. Even in small doses STAN will kill your HDL. In these patients, there was no increase in CAD. Now that doesn't mean guys that take their HDL down to 5 with abusive doses of oral androgens aren't at risk, just that more mild, but statistically significant decreases may not be clinically significant.

 

[MarcoFL]

what dose of ai were u taking?

I was taking .5mg 2X per week when I was on 150mg T split 3X per week. I am now taking 12mg per day-no AI and amazing how taking less has made this so much easier! I was chasing my tail taking to much.

 

[Gman86]

I was taking .5mg 2X per week when I was on 150mg T split 3X per week. I am now taking 12mg per day-no AI and amazing how taking less has made this so much easier! I was chasing my tail taking to much.

1mg is way too much ai. I’m surprised ur HDL didn’t go down way more than 10 points.

But glad u figured out a protocol where u feel good and don’t need an ai obviously. Do u feel better on this current protocol compared to the 150mg with an ai?

 

[lukas_az]

my understanding is that when your diet is healthy (keto/paelo no grains, veg oils etc), cholesterol is meaningless. if your diet is shit, you need to work on it. statins = useless poison invented by pharma scums.
HDL can be raised by taking nicotinic acid, I found a version which does not cause a flush. i take it for OTHER reasons then HDL:

Amazon.com

 

[NoVa Biker]

I have been on Testosterone, HCG and Anastrozole since I was 48. I will be 60 in two months. Can testosterone replacement therapy continue into the later years in life? I monitor all my important bloodwork every six months and everything is ok except my HDL cholesterol. I feel much better being on testosterone than not. My concern is that I read testosterone can lower HDL and all cause morbidity increases with HDL under 50, mine is 39.

I've read what foods, supplements, behaviors increase HDL and I'm already doing all of those except red wine. Does anyone have any advise for me to increase my HDL?

I am almost 80 and still on TRT. My HDL is great. But there is more to the story.

At age 52 I almost died from a heart blockage likely due to unusually low HDL. After an angioplasty, my doctor treated the low HDL very aggressively using mostly huge doses of niacin. HDL more than doubled, and LDL was cut in half.

At age 70 my doctor suggested TRT to treat my osteoporosis after fosimax did not work. She prescribed 105 mg/week, but I upped that to 175 mg/week for more muscle size and strength. TRT worked and bone density is now in normal range. Muscle size and definition improved significantly. HDL remains just as good as before.

So, it is possible to take high dose TRT and maintain good HDL. At least in my case.