T.Cyp 100 mg/week - Night sweats, anxiety

[aneuman]

Sorry to hear you are struggling there mate.

Something similar I had as well or at least some of the symptoms you've listed. Most of mine were- elevated BP and RHR, some anxiety, feeling hot and overstimulation, as I believe.

My protocol of choice, since starting TRT less then 12 months ago, was 100mg/week split 50mg E3.5D of Sustanon250 as it was the only pharma grade option I could get my hands on as I'm doing everything on my own.

I'll give just a quick context on my labs at that given time. Tested in the morning right before the next injection, fasted, my TT was 30nmol/L or 865ng/dL. My baseline TT before starting treatment was 16.7nmol/L or 482ng/dL. I won't use cFT just TT for now to get my point through. So basically close to 2x my natural production FWIW. I'm not sure this can ever be healthy. Imagine what my TT is at the peak if my through is like that? Must be absurdly high. So at that time I was having a lot more elevated BP and RHR, some anxiety and felt hot a lot more then now.

So without going too much into the fitness, supplement and diet, which def has a huge impact on how we feel and how our body performs, etc, this is what has helped me the most till this day:

• Switched from E3.5D protocol to E5D or even E6D if something fucks up or I forget very rarely, but never stress about it.
• Ditched the Sustanon250 for Testosterone Enanthate(Testoviron) also Pharma grade fwiw.
• Kept the 100mg amount the same only E5D now.
• Dialed in my diet, training and supp regiment.
• Trying to avoid night work as it wrecks me and my readings properly.

Before all that and using E3.5D protocol my BP in the morning was elevated up to and into 130s/80s with RHR elevated as well.

I'm experiencing this as well, but my baseline is not much lower that that. It's only the systolic going from a baseline of 112-120 to 127-135, diastolic remains at 77-80 in most cases

Now around 8 weeks ago I've made a switch to Testosterone Enanthate 100mg E5D. Still working out hard and heavy when my injuries permits and also doing my stairmaster 40min cardio 3-4x/week. Dropped magnesium, potassium and all protocols incl these that I was doing and guess what. From 135/90 my BP is down to 110/65/55 the lowest it ever was in my life. Less hot, less anxious, less feeling of a racing heart, a lot more cool, calm and collected, I believe. Ofc I started on a bunch of other supplements for cardiovascular, anti inflamation benefits, etc but thats another story.

That's impressive. Do you attribute the drop in BP to:
- change from sustanon to enanthate?
- change frequency from E3.5D to 5 days?
- Both?
- Dropping the supplements (magnesium, potassium, etc)?
- starting on a bunch of other supplements for cardiovascular, etc?

I assume you made all these changes at once and it's hard to pinpoint the cause. In any case congratulations!

The more shots per week the worse I felt.

That seems to make sense. I have only tried 3xweek (M-W-F) and twice a week (M-Th). So far I think I feel more leveled at 2xweek. Once I have given this more time, I may try once a week. I need a consistent schedule aligned with particular days of the week, otherwise I'll forget.

So def for me so far in my journey protocol 100mg E5D has been the best and with the least minimum sides so far.

I'll keep that in mind, it's consistent with most of the research out there, it's also what my doctor suggested but I was so afraid of high HCT that I started multiple times a week.

It's only been 8 weeks but it's very promising and coupled with my blood results I still have room to increase the dose and see if it makes me feel better without destroying my BP and making me feel like crap.

Sounds very good. Wish you good luck.

My 0.02 cents and hang in there, you will figure it out.

Is this adjusted for inflation? 2 cents used to be the minimum :-D In any case, they are very much appreciated. I've been following you for a while and I appreciate your advice.

p.s. I def missed some important parts but the post was getting too long already so tried keeping it to the minimum. Always happy to help where/if I can.

Don't worry. Lots of valuable information here.

 

[Belekas]

I'm experiencing this as well, but my baseline is not much lower that that. It's only the systolic going from a baseline of 112-120 to 127-135, diastolic remains at 77-80 in most cases

You need to tackle this a bit and it should be fine. Theres good ways to work on this nuturally with really high % improvements before looking at meds. So the natural protocol, supplements, cardio and sleep I'd say are the most important ones at least from MPOV.

That's impressive. Do you attribute the drop in BP to:
- change from sustanon to enanthate?
- change frequency from E3.5D to 5 days?
- Both?
- Dropping the supplements (magnesium, potassium, etc)?
- starting on a bunch of other supplements for cardiovascular, etc?

I assume you made all these changes at once and it's hard to pinpoint the cause. In any case congratulations!

Thank you for the good words mate, appreciated. So yes I ditched Sustanon, potassium and magnesium supps I had from NOW, and started a bunch of other supplements recommended by Dr. Thomas O'Connor aka TheAnabolicDoc. Also got the meds Telmisartan and Bystolic(Nebivolol) ready to test-drive because of the elevated BP/RHR and heavy resistance training and cardio as they do take a toll on ones body over time. Also the protocol change from E3.5D to E5D def feels like made a positive change as well at least in my case. It's hard to pinpoint the real cause so I take it as a whole and won't go into micromanaging as that is exactly what causes anxiety and BP/RHR elevation on its own. Been there done that.

That seems to make sense. I have only tried 3xweek (M-W-F) and twice a week (M-Th). So far I think I feel more leveled at 2xweek. Once I have given this more time, I may try once a week. I need a consistent schedule aligned with particular days of the week, otherwise I'll forget.

I'd say go for it. E5D or even E6D if you will forget. My E2 went down on this protocol VS the one I had before on same dosage of 100mg/week split E3.5D. And also on day 5, being my injection day, my TT is down to 519ng/dL which is very close to my pre TRT baseline of 482ng/dL so maybe this is one of the key elements for my BP to fall back in range and less stimulation, less feeling hot, etc, etc. No surprise if you are 2 or 3x your natural baseline TT at through that one might get some sides and elevations IMO. Unless your TT was very low then a different story I guess but my point stays.

I'll keep that in mind, it's consistent with most of the research out there, it's also what my doctor suggested but I was so afraid of high HCT that I started multiple times a week.

Another interesting thing my HCT and Hb went down going from 2 weekly injections to 1 as per currently. Last week it was 0.467 and 166.0g/L FWIW which is lower then on the previous test when running the old E3.5D protocol.

Is this adjusted for inflation? 2 cents used to be the minimum :-D In any case, they are very much appreciated. I've been following you for a while and I appreciate your advice.

lol thats a good one and yeah I follow your posts as well and have no doubts you will figure it out sooner then later.

Best regards,
Bel

 

[aneuman]

I'd say go for it. E5D or even E6D if you will forget. My E2 went down on this protocol VS the one I had before on same dosage of 100mg/week split E3.5D. And also on day 5, being my injection day, my TT is down to 519ng/dL which is very close to my pre TRT baseline of 482ng/dL so maybe this is one of the key elements for my BP to fall back in range and less stimulation, less feeling hot, etc, etc. No surprise if you are 2 or 3x your natural baseline TT at through that one might get some sides and elevations IMO. Unless your TT was very low then a different story I guess but my point stays.

That will be my next step, just need to make sure how my body reacts to different schedules. I tried 3xweek, now 2xweek, my goal is to do it once a week, so I can minimize the number of injections. I don't mind doing it, but I worry about the next 25 years. Will I still like it?

So once I complete 8 weeks on this protocol, and have my labs, I'll evaluate vs the previous 3xWeek and probably test drive 1xWeek. Again, 5-6 days complicates the schedule for me. Look at my avatar, I'm not too smart.

By the way, your pre-TRT levels were very similar to mine, I was at 492 ng/dL but I felt like crap, probably due to my low FT. If things works out well, I don't mind to be in the 500s with 1xWeek as long as my FT is in range.

I was reading a study recently in which they injected 50, 75, 100 mg T cypionate per week, once a week, subQ, and even though at day 7 TT had fallen to baseline levels, none of the participants had low T symptoms.

At a dose of 75 mg per week, Baseline was around 480s, 6 hours and 24 hours later, TT went up to 650-700, remain around 600 for the rest of the week and fell to 480 on day 7 prior to the injection.

In post hoc analysis, paired comparisons between time points indicated no significant difference among serum total testosterone levels measured 6 hours to 5 days after injection; there was, however, a significant decrease at 7 days, compared both with the initial postinjection measurement (656 6 244 ng/dL and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.012) and the 5-day measurement (621 6 321 ng/dL and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.023). Compared with baseline preinjection values, serum concentrations increased significantly at 6 hours after injection for both total testosterone (497 6 140 and 656 6 244, P = 0.02) and free testosterone 118 6 46 pg/mL and 151 6 69 pg/mL, P = 0.003). There was no significant difference in serum levels between the two samples drawn 7 days apart immediately prior to testosterone injections for both total testosterone (497 6 140 and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.58) and free testosterone (118 6 46 and 107 6 49 pg/mL, P =0.25).

The above supports your "every 5 or 6 days" protocol

Another interesting thing my HCT and Hb went down going from 2 weekly injections to 1 as per currently. Last week it was 0.467 and 166.0g/L FWIW which is lower than on the previous test when running the old E3.5D protocol.

That's encouraging. My doctor said that in order to keep HCT down, frequency needed to be increased. I'm glad to see a counter-example.

lol thats a good one and yeah I follow your posts as well and have no doubts you will figure it out sooner then later.

Best regards,
Bel

Good luck mate.

Thanks

 

[aneuman]

I must say that I don't feel bad on this protocol, or have any concerns at this moment. It seems that my post has been misinterpreted as if I was looking for advice on making changes because of the symptoms I posted. I apologize for misleading the readers.

The main reason of my post was a curiosity: why would I have symptoms typically associated with low estradiol (night sweats) when I had increased my testosterone level.

The night sweats episode so far has been just one night. Cold feet are slowly getting normal. I feel pretty good at the protocol by the way in terms of energy, well-being, etc, even sexually. I was not complaining or feeling miserable, I was just curious.

In any case, I sincerely appreciate all comments and answers. They give me perspective, and I do value all individual experiences, as they constitute additional variables in my model to make decisions when needed. For example, @Belekas change in protocol has been very valuable to me, and @Systemlord experience with Ferritin was something I did not know about.

One of the most important thing about this forum is that in general is very respectful, honest and extremely helpful, and one of the last places on the internet when civilized conversations can still be maintains.

Thank you all for that (and @Nelson Vergel for keeping this going)

 

[madman]

That will be my next step, just need to make sure how my body reacts to different schedules. I tried 3xweek, now 2xweek, my goal is to do it once a week, so I can minimize the number of injections. I don't mind doing it, but I worry about the next 25 years. Will I still like it?

So once I complete 8 weeks on this protocol, and have my labs, I'll evaluate vs the previous 3xWeek and probably test drive 1xWeek. Again, 5-6 days complicates the schedule for me. Look at my avatar, I'm not too smart.

By the way, your pre-TRT levels were very similar to mine, I was at 492 ng/dL but I felt like crap, probably due to my low FT. If things works out well, I don't mind to be in the 500s with 1xWeek as long as my FT is in range.

I was reading a study recently in which they injected 50, 75, 100 mg T cypionate per week, once a week, subQ, and even though at day 7 TT had fallen to baseline levels, none of the participants had low T symptoms.

At a dose of 75 mg per week, Baseline was around 480s, 6 hours and 24 hours later, TT went up to 650-700, remain around 600 for the rest of the week and fell to 480 on day 7 prior to the injection.

In post hoc analysis, paired comparisons between time points indicated no significant difference among serum total testosterone levels measured 6 hours to 5 days after injection; there was, however, a significant decrease at 7 days, compared both with the initial postinjection measurement (656 6 244 ng/dL and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.012) and the 5-day measurement (621 6 321 ng/dL and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.023). Compared with baseline preinjection values, serum concentrations increased significantly at 6 hours after injection for both total testosterone (497 6 140 and 656 6 244, P = 0.02) and free testosterone 118 6 46 pg/mL and 151 6 69 pg/mL, P = 0.003). There was no significant difference in serum levels between the two samples drawn 7 days apart immediately prior to testosterone injections for both total testosterone (497 6 140 and 477 6 185 ng/dL, P = 0.58) and free testosterone (118 6 46 and 107 6 49 pg/mL, P =0.25).

The above supports your "every 5 or 6 days" protocol

That's encouraging. My doctor said that in order to keep HCT down, frequency needed to be increased. I'm glad to see a counter-example.



Good luck mate.

Thanks

I tried 3xweek, now 2xweek, my goal is to do it once a week, so I can minimize the number of injections. I don't mind doing it, but I worry about the next 25 years. Will I still like it?

So once I complete 8 weeks on this protocol, and have my labs, I'll evaluate vs the previous 3xWeek and probably test drive 1xWeek.

You need to give your current protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks) before jumping into switching up your protocol (dose of T/injection frequency).

Again it will take a few months for the body to adapt to your new set-point after blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE).




My doctor said that in order to keep HCT down, frequency needed to be increased. I'm glad to see a counter-example.

This is far from a given and I would put more weight behind where your trough FT levels sits.

Many make the mistake of jumping on more frequent injections in the hopes of bringing down hematocrit let alone estradiol yet they end up running into issues because they are still running high/absurdly high trough FT levels on dailies.

Running high/absurdly high FT levels let alone at the trough than it is a given that you are going to drive up your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Top it all off that 8 weeks in when first starting TRT let alone tweaking a protocol (increasing dose of T/injection frequency) means nothing when looking at the bigger picture as it will take anywhere from 6-9 months and in some cases up to a year for hematocrit to reach peak levels.

Where your hematocrit sits 6-8 weeks in is not where it is going to end up 6-12 months later.

Many fail to realize this and end up scratching there heads down the road.

This is why hematocrit is tested at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months when first starting TRT.

After that it is twice or in some cases once yearly on a stable protocol.

If you keep messing with your protocol especially increasing the T dose than you need to restart this whole process over again!

Management of erythrocytosis during TRT

Dear Editor, Testosterone is the primary sex hormone and anabolic steroid in men. It is a widely used drug which is used by males as an anabolic–androgenic steroid but it is also the cornerstone in treatment of both hypogonadal men and transgender people. This letter will focus on the use of...

www.excelmale.com

This needs to be stressed!

Patience is key when tweaking a protocol (decreasing/increasing T dose).


*It has to be noted that the largest increase in hematocrit levels is seen in the first year after initiation of testosterone therapy. On the other hand it is expected that a decrease can take a similar amount of time. Especially when taking into account that the lifespan of a erythrocyte is 120 days. Hence, interventions to lower hematocrit levels should be evaluated after 6 months and a decrease can be expected until 1 year after the intervention.

I am on week 5-6 anxiety comes and goes

Free test - 15.39 The Free T will be higher at trough 2x weekly.

www.excelmale.com

Regarding those struggling with high hematocrit here is my reply from another thread:

As you can see your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit is elevated which is a common side-effect when using exogenous T, especially when running higher FT levels let alone peak--->trough levels can have a significant impact.

When using exogenous T RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit will increase within the 1st month and can take anywhere from 6-12 months to reach peak levels.

T formulation, the dose of T, genetics (polymorphism of the AR), age all play a role in the impact a trt protocol will have on blood markers (RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit).

Other factors such as sleep apnea, smoking, asthma, COPD can have a negative impact on hematocrit.

Injectable T has been shown to have a greater impact on increasing HCT compared to transdermal T.

3–18% with transdermal administration and up to 44% with injection.

In most cases when using injectable T high supra-physiological peaks post-injection and overall T levels (running too high TT/FT level) will have a big impact on increasing HCT.

Manipulating injection frequency by injecting more frequently using lower doses of T resulting in minimizing the peak--->trough and maintaining more stable levels may lessen the impact on HCT but it is not a given.

As again running very high TT/FT levels will have a stronger impact on driving up HCT.

Although injectables have been shown to have a greater impact on HCT you can see even when using a transdermal formulation that maintains stable serum concentrations that the impact it has on HCT is DEPENDANT ON THE DOSE AND SERUM LEVEL OF T.

Using higher doses of transdermal T and achieving higher TT/FT levels will have a great impact on HCT levels.

How high an FT level you are running is critical.

It is a given that most men on trt struggling with elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit are running too high an FT level.

Sure some men are more sensitive than others as they may still struggle with elevated blood markers when running lower T levels but it is far from common and many may already have an underlying health issue contributing to such.

If you are struggling with such blood markers then in most cases finding the lowest FT level you can run while still maintaining the beneficial effects may very well be the solution.

Easier said than done as many men on trt tend to do better running higher-end FT levels within reason.

Mind you some are lucky and never have an issue or levels tend to stabilize over time.

Others will continue to struggle until the cows come home.

Unfortunately too many are caught up in running absurdly high trough FT levels due to the herd mentality spewed on the bro forums and gootube!

 

[Belekas]

By the way, your pre-TRT levels were very similar to mine, I was at 492 ng/dL but I felt like crap, probably due to my low FT. If things works out well, I don't mind to be in the 500s with 1xWeek as long as my FT is in range.

What was your FT? I had mine crashed and right at the start of the range LOL whats interesting is that I felt pretty good. Now with raised FT I feel pretty good as well just more athletic and energy benefits I'd say and more aggression as well hehe. I gave TRT a test-drive to see if raising FT makes me feel/perform even better so my expectations were quite modest.

I see you are not a low SHBG same as myself. So perhaps the theory that we need less weekly injections to get through does have its place here in practise as well. Also I know it might not make sense but switching to a different ester like Enanthate would be interesting nonetheless. I also made a mistake in my previous post re starting Enanthate as its been only 3 weeks tops not 8. So it's even more convincing to me that it had a significant role in BP/RHR reduction. I'm starting to believe that injection frequency might be messing with the constant stimulation that leads to overdrive or something like that and then all sorts of issues start popping up. I know the poison is in the dose but in this case its def in the frequency as well. Also keeping in mind all the other variables like diet, sleep, training, etc are optimised and working decent.

 

[sammmy]

Theoretically, Cialis should help cold feet because it is a vasodilator and improves blood flow.

You could try supplementing vitamin C 250-500mg/day (makes me feel less cold) and CoQ10 200mg/day (general anti-inflammatory in case your immune system is attacking your nerves). Monitor for side effects - vit C might make you overheat, CoQ10 might exacerbate the delayed orgasm (anti-oxidants in general do that for me).

Some infections and cancers present as night sweats so be vigilant about these possibilities. It is not all about hormones.

 

[aneuman]

Theoretically, Cialis should help cold feet because it is a vasodilator and improves blood flow.

Already on it. 5 mg a day for BPH

You could try supplementing vitamin C 250-500mg/day (makes me feel less cold)

I'll try that. I have a bottle of vitamin C in front of me right now, I don't think I've ever opened it ;-(

and CoQ10 200mg/day (general anti-inflammatory in case your immune system is attacking your nerves). Monitor for side effects - vit C might make you overheat,

I've tried CoQ10 in the past. Haven't noticed much though

CoQ10 might exacerbate the delayed orgasm (anti-oxidants in general do that for me).

OH NOO!! If I continue to delay orgasm, it may take me a year....

Some infections and cancers present as night sweats so be vigilant about these possibilities. It is not all about hormones.

C'mon man, don't scare more than I need, first a a full year to orgasm, now cancer... will I die of cancer before I cum?

Seriously. I appreciate your advice. I agree with you it's not all about hormones. I believe in my case the most likely cause of night swats is hormonal, as I'm playing with fire, that is, hormones at the moment, but very well could be the big C, I hope not. I'll see my doctor in December.

Fortunately the night sweats were short lived. One night I was just hot at 3 am, the next I was hot and sweating, last night it was fine. Like I said, I've through this in the past, never figured out what it was. At least in the past I did not have cancer.

Thanks @sammmy

 

[aneuman]

I tried 3xweek, now 2xweek, my goal is to do it once a week, so I can minimize the number of injections. I don't mind doing it, but I worry about the next 25 years. Will I still like it?

So once I complete 8 weeks on this protocol, and have my labs, I'll evaluate vs the previous 3xWeek and probably test drive 1xWeek.

You need to give your current protocol a fighting chance (12 weeks) before jumping into switching up your protocol (dose of T/injection frequency).

Again it will take a few months for the body to adapt to your new set-point after blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks TC/TE).




My doctor said that in order to keep HCT down, frequency needed to be increased. I'm glad to see a counter-example.

This is far from a given and I would put more weight behind where your trough FT levels sits.

I understand. I guess his logic would be that more frequent interventions with smaller dosages would create smaller peaks producing lower FT values. I'm not sure, I'll ask him next month when I see it, but that's the one who told me that there was no way HCG could maintain testicular size while on TRT because TRT was suppressive ;-)

Many make the mistake of jumping on more frequent injections in the hopes of bringing down hematocrit let alone estradiol yet they end up running into issues because they are still running high/absurdly high trough FT levels on dailies.

Running high/absurdly high FT levels let alone at the trough than it is a given that you are going to drive up your RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit.

That's definitely something I will evaluate when I get my next labs. I promise you that if my FT is greater than it was before (19 ng/dL) I will reduce the dosage. Although I will be very sad because I would lose my bragging rights and my current tattoo would be obsolete

Patience is key when tweaking a protocol (decreasing/increasing T dose).

Oh, if it only were that easy... when I was a child, I stayed up all night waiting for Santa, he never arrived and I ran out of patience.... it's not my fault.

As again running very high TT/FT levels will have a stronger impact on driving up HCT.

How high an FT level you are running is critical.

Understood. Loud and clear.

Unfortunately too many are caught up in running absurdly high trough FT levels due to the herd mentality spewed on the bro forums and gootube!

I hear you @madman , seriously, I appreciate the good work you do trying to enlighten us about patience and good protocols. It's just a genetic disease that I have. I'm monozygote for the STPID gene, and I can't avoid tweaking and changing things, even when I know full well the potential consequences. I'm sorry.

On the plus side, I don'y watch gootube, fecesbook, tik-tok, instagram, linkedin, or any other anti-social media at all. This is the only "social" place on the internet I visit...for now. Got tired of the gurus, know-it-all, charlatans, scammers, and people screaming stupid things on my face with a lab coat pretending to help others.

I have learned a lot from you, @Cataceous, @tareload, and many others here, don't get discouraged by our collective idiocy, have patience and keep up the good work. It's very much appreciated.

 

[Devcon]

Sorry to hear you are struggling there mate.

Something similar I had as well or at least some of the symptoms you've listed. Most of mine were- elevated BP and RHR, some anxiety, feeling hot and overstimulation, as I believe.

My protocol of choice, since starting TRT less then 12 months ago, was 100mg/week split 50mg E3.5D of Sustanon250 as it was the only pharma grade option I could get my hands on as I'm doing everything on my own.

I'll give just a quick context on my labs at that given time. Tested in the morning right before the next injection, fasted, my TT was 30nmol/L or 865ng/dL. My baseline TT before starting treatment was 16.7nmol/L or 482ng/dL. I won't use cFT just TT for now to get my point through. So basically close to 2x my natural production FWIW. I'm not sure this can ever be healthy. Imagine what my TT is at the peak if my through is like that? Must be absurdly high. So at that time I was having a lot more elevated BP and RHR, some anxiety and felt hot a lot more then now.

So without going too much into the fitness, supplement and diet, which def has a huge impact on how we feel and how our body performs, etc, this is what has helped me the most till this day:

• Switched from E3.5D protocol to E5D or even E6D if something fucks up or I forget very rarely, but never stress about it.
• Ditched the Sustanon250 for Testosterone Enanthate(Testoviron) also Pharma grade fwiw.
• Kept the 100mg amount the same only E5D now.
• Dialed in my diet, training and supp regiment.
• Trying to avoid night work as it wrecks me and my readings properly.

Before all that and using E3.5D protocol my BP in the morning was elevated up to and into 130s/80s with RHR elevated as well. Was using lots of magnesium and potassium at that point to see if they worked but nothing worked and kept feeling ruff. Mid-day came and elevated my BP/RHR more and so anxiety kept increasing, was getting hott af and so on and so forth. Sleep was never effected as I sleep good on 100mg and on 250mg same as far as I recall.

Now around 3 weeks ago I've made a switch to Testosterone Enanthate 100mg E5D. Still working out hard and heavy when my injuries permits and also doing my stairmaster 40min cardio 3-4x/week. Dropped magnesium, potassium and all protocols incl these that I was doing and guess what. From 135/90 my BP is down to 110/65/55 the lowest it ever was in my life. Less hot, less anxious, less feeling of a racing heart, a lot more cool, calm and collected, I believe. Ofc I started on a bunch of other supplements for cardiovascular, anti inflamation benefits, etc but thats another story.

So IMHO and IMHE the injection frequency and the product you are using are def the first line of defence so look at if you are strulling. I'm not sure about SubQ as I do all the classic oldschool way- IM. The more shots per week the worse I felt. Mind you I also tried the EOD protocol but only a short-term for 2 weeks or so and fuck me I felt like a complete hot pile of crap lol I know 2 weeks is fuck all but I had enough of feeling like that, went back to E3.5D and pretty much straight away felt better, less hot, less stimulated, etc. So def for me so far in my journey protocol 100mg E5D has been the best and with the least minimum sides so far. It's only been 8 weeks but it's very promising and coupled with my blood results I still have room to increase the dose and see if it makes me feel better without destroying my BP and making me feel like crap.

My 0.02 cents and hang in there, you will figure it out.

Best regards,
Bel

p.s. I def missed some important parts but the post was getting too long already so tried keeping it to the minimum. Always happy to help where/if I can.

This is good advice. More frequent injections never worked for me either. Always made me feel like complete crap. High resting heart rate, insomnia, moody, sexual side effects. And many more. With esters like cypionate , and enanthate you don’t need to inject more often. The problem with more often injections is that your levels are always peaked. That’s not healthy at all. The body needs fluctuations. Injecting every day or every other day does not mimic natural production at all. All that advice is just based on bro science B.S.

 

[Systemlord]

The problem with more often injections is that your levels are always peaked. That’s not healthy at all. The body needs fluctuations.

This is a blanket statement and is wrong! Everyone metabolizes test differently, which is based on an individual’s absorption rates. This will affect the hormone profile, peaks and dips.

There will still be peaks on daily injections, just use a steroid plotter and see for yourself. Not everyone needs fluctuations in hormones to respond to treatment, as there are men on Nebido and daily injections doing just fine.

 

[madman]

This is good advice. More frequent injections never worked for me either. Always made me feel like complete crap. High resting heart rate, insomnia, moody, sexual side effects. And many more. With esters like cypionate , and enanthate you don’t need to inject more often. The problem with more often injections is that your levels are always peaked. That’s not healthy at all. The body needs fluctuations. Injecting every day or every other day does not mimic natural production at all. All that advice is just based on bro science B.S.

With esters like cypionate , and enanthate you don’t need to inject more often. The problem with more often injections is that your levels are always peaked.

The peak--->trough is clipped/minimized when injecting TC/TE daily.

Many jump on dailies thinking it will help lower estradiol let alone hematocrit.

Unfortunately, this is not a given because the main issue as to why many still struggle when injecting daily is that they are still running too high an FT level.

It's not just peak vs trough here as running too high a FT level steady state can lead to numerous issues/sides.

The goal of injecting daily would be using the lowest weekly dose that would allow one to hit/maintain a healthy FT level in order to reap the beneficial effects while at the same time minimizing/preventing sides.

Easier said than done.




The body needs fluctuations. Injecting every day or every other day does not mimic natural production at all.

Definitely agree that fluctuations in T whether daily when using nasal T gel (Natesto), oral TU (Jatenzo, Tlando, Kyzatrex), or even TP let alone fluctuations throughout the week when injecting TC or TE once weekly/twice weekly can be advantageous for many.

Even then injecting TC/TE daily or EOD let alone TP daily in no way mimics the natural endogenous 24-hour circadian rhythm of a healthy young male.

If anything with daily TP you are just hitting a daily peak/trough and most could never follow an injection schedule to hit the natty peak which is in the early AM let alone TP will result in T levels rising too fast post-injection as opposed to natty T levels which gradually rise throughout the night.

Even though TC/TE/TP have different PKs mind you TC/TE are basically interchangeable there will be an initial burst release of T within the first 2 hours post-injection with such esters.

No TRT formulation other than the T-patch (Androderm) applied before bed most closely mimics the natural endogenous 24-hour circadian rhythm of a healthy young male.

So who is happy with TRT? Who wish they never started?

Testosterone cypionate, eod. I seem to feel best between 7-800. I've been over 1,000, and didn't feel "better".

www.excelmale.com

Many fail to realize that T levels gradually rise overnight reaching peak in the early AM.

*elevated and near peak TT level during nighttime sleep, peak TT level around the time of morning awakening

*T production occurs in the greatest amount during sleep as recurring pulses at approximately 90 min intervals in healthy young males and approximately 140 min in healthy middle-aged males (91).




This is key:

(i) elevated and near peak TT level during nighttime sleep, (ii) peak TT level around the time of morning awakening, (iii) moderately elevated TT level during the initial hours of wakefulness, (iv) reduced TT level in the late afternoon, and (v) lowest TT level in the evening. Based upon these criteria, only the Androderm® transdermal patch (Figure 3D), when applied in the evening (∼22:00 h) as recommended, closely mimics the TT circadian rhythm of normal young adult males.

Oral Testosterone vs Daily Cyp/Prop Injection

Hello all (@madman, @Cataceous, @Nelson Vergel @Systemlord ), I'm trying to figure out the benefit of Oral Testosterone Capsules (Tlando, Jatenzo, etc) vs Daily Test Cyp/Prop Injection. Does anyone have a point of view on this or data to support one or the other? Thanks in advance for your...

www.excelmale.com

All that advice is just based on bro science B.S.

The Internet is loaded with such.

Many are left in a constant state of confusion.

This is what happens when people waste all of their time on some of those other so-called HRT forums let alone gootube flooded with these so-called testosterone GURUs!

 

[Systemlord]

That’s not healthy at all. The body needs fluctuations.

Is this based off a feeling or idea or is this based on actual evidence?

Is there a study done on people doing daily injections where their health is degrading and they found the root cause was the daily injections?

If anyone is guilty of spreading bro science, it’s you.

 

[Devcon]

This is a blanket statement and 100% wrong! Everyone metabolizes test differently, which is based on an individual’s absorption rates. This will affect the hormone profile, peaks and dips.

There will still be peaks on daily injections, just use a steroid plotter and see for yourself. Not everyone needs fluctuations in hormones to respond to treatment, as there are men on Nebido in the EU doing just fine. No there won’t be peaks on daily injections with longer esters. Even every third day injections my levels did not change. No matter what day my blood was drawn.

 

[Systemlord]

I’m unable to quite your reply, since our posts got mixed together. You can’t apply your experience to everyone else. Again, absorption rates determine the clearance rate of test, so peaks and valleys will look different for everyone.

I recall some members injecting twice weekly, and their levels would change dramatically after 3 days, so much that they had to inject every other day to keep hormone levels from dipping too low.

I wonder if you accounted for lab deviation, when comparing results which can be plus or minus 70 ng/dL. Also, testing hormones, timing is critical, because your hormones are on a bell curve.

 

[Gman86]

This is good advice. More frequent injections never worked for me either. Always made me feel like complete crap. High resting heart rate, insomnia, moody, sexual side effects. And many more. With esters like cypionate , and enanthate you don’t need to inject more often. The problem with more often injections is that your levels are always peaked. That’s not healthy at all. The body needs fluctuations. Injecting every day or every other day does not mimic natural production at all. All that advice is just based on bro science B.S.

I’ve been experimenting with injection frequencies recently. What injection frequency works best for u, as far as feeling ur best?