SubQ vs IM (E2)

[Cyclingislife]

I use 27 gauge 1/2 inch insulin needles. I get them on Amazon, they work perfect. I pressurize my vial with a little air from the syringe then it draws up quickly. Draw & inject with the same gear. Here’s the link:
https://www.amazon.com/EasyTouch®-U-100-27g-1cc-12-7mm/dp/B084ZBY221

 

[Smokin Joe]

Good deal .
I appreciate that.

 

[equel]

Subq cut My t level in half and doubled e2.

 

[Systemlord]

27 guage by what length?

All my Easy Touch 29 gauge insulin syringes are 1/2.

 

[Gladiator]

This is all very interesting. My doctor thinks my E2 is very high compared to my free testosterone. I have been doing SubQ for both my last bloods. Will be going to IM after next bloods to see if I get better results

 

[Cataceous]

... The cypionate was bathing in aromatase enzymes.

For the nth time, testosterone cypionate does not aromatize. Only when it is absorbed into the blood and the ester is stripped off may the remaining testosterone interact with aromatase. The same occurs with either IM or SC injections.

The clinical trial for Xyosted compared intramuscular to subcutaneous injections. Regarding the production of DHT and estradiol, they conclude "The ratios of T to metabolites were similar, suggesting that the conversion rate of T to its metabolites was similar across groups."

 

[Smokin Joe]

5 days back on deep IM injection .
1".
Feel much better.
More calm and easier to be around.
Something to the sub- q that makes me nuts but it was worth the try. I like the shoter needles but not the sides.

 

[jacb]

I do both shallow IM and Sub q. Before I only did shallow. And forever reason both my E2 and HCT went lower.

Hi Vince etc

Just a quick update on my protocol change.
I am using Dragon Pharmacy Testosterone Cypionate 250mg/1mL.

I made the protocol change on February 16th.
The purpose of the change was twofold:

1) To see if EOD SubQ injections would reduce my HCT
2) By lowering my T dose to get my Free Testosterone as close as possible to 30 ng/dL (using the TruT calculator).

Old: Twice Weekly (TW) IM 75mg (150mg per week) 27g 1/2” EasyTouch needles & 1mL syringes. 0.3mL injected each time. One of my concerns was the increased number of injections into my shoulders using a 27g needle If I moved to EOD & stayed with IM.

New: Every Other Day (EOD) SubQ 30mg (105mg per week) BD 31g x 8mm x 0.3mL needle/syringe combination. 0.12mL injected each time.

The first and Very obvious difference I noticed was that I felt incredibly tired for the first week … clearly the SubQ delivery takes longer to circulate. I feel instinctively, that the delivery method is more of a factor than the reduced T dose.

The 31g needle size is very comfortable to use although I do find that I am forming small nodules under the skin following the SubQ injection (Belly fat) these takes a few days to dissipate.

I have put on quite a lot of weight (stomach area) since the protocol change for some unknown reasons and whilst I do not attribute this to the protocol change, there have been no other life style changes. I will get new blood tests done after three months on this protocol.

Overall I don’t feel as good as I did …. I am tempted to use IM 29g x 12mm x 0.5mL EasyTouch needle/syringe combination, on a EOD basis using the same 105mg dose. But I will stay on this protocol until the new blood tests are completed.

 

[bixt]

The first and Very obvious difference I noticed was that I felt incredibly tired for the first week …clearly the SubQ delivery takes longer to circulate

OR you are having some kind of an allergic reaction to the subq shot, causing extreme fatigue.

Anyone know how to test this theory out? Inflamation markers such as CRP?

 

[jacb]

OR you are having some kind of an allergic reaction to the subq shot, causing extreme fatigue.

Anyone know how to test this theory out? Inflamation markers such as CRP?

This is the exactly the same Testosterone that I was injecting IM without issue … have you heard that SubQ sometimes causes issues and allergic reactions?

 

[bixt]

This is the exactly the same Testosterone that I was injecting IM without issue … have you heard that SubQ sometimes causes issues and allergic reactions?

Yes, SubQ may sometimes cause issues that dont manifest IM. These issues seemingly dont exist either with SubQ Xyosted, a preparation without the usual preservatives or excipients.

 

[Vince]

Hi Vince etc

Just a quick update on my protocol change.
I am using Dragon Pharmacy Testosterone Cypionate 250mg/1mL.

I made the protocol change on February 16th.
The purpose of the change was twofold:

1) To see if EOD SubQ injections would reduce my HCT
2) By lowering my T dose to get my Free Testosterone as close as possible to 30 ng/dL (using the TruT calculator).

Old: Twice Weekly (TW) IM 75mg (150mg per week) 27g 1/2” EasyTouch needles & 1mL syringes. 0.3mL injected each time. One of my concerns was the increased number of injections into my shoulders using a 27g needle If I moved to EOD & stayed with IM.

New: Every Other Day (EOD) SubQ 30mg (105mg per week) BD 31g x 8mm x 0.3mL needle/syringe combination. 0.12mL injected each time.

The first and Very obvious difference I noticed was that I felt incredibly tired for the first week … clearly the SubQ delivery takes longer to circulate. I feel instinctively, that the delivery method is more of a factor than the reduced T dose.

The 31g needle size is very comfortable to use although I do find that I am forming small nodules under the skin following the SubQ injection (Belly fat) these takes a few days to dissipate.

I have put on quite a lot of weight (stomach area) since the protocol change for some unknown reasons and whilst I do not attribute this to the protocol change, there have been no other life style changes. I will get new blood tests done after three months on this protocol.

Overall I don’t feel as good as I did …. I am tempted to use IM 29g x 12mm x 0.5mL EasyTouch needle/syringe combination, on a EOD basis using the same 105mg dose. But I will stay on this protocol until the new blood tests are completed.

I use the 29g half-in syringe for all my injections. Both Sub q and shallow IM. I really like the results using this method. As you know, I injected my shoulders, love handles and BG.

 

[eli]

5 days back on deep IM injection .
1".
Feel much better.
More calm and easier to be around.
Something to the sub- q that makes me nuts but it was worth the try. I like the shoter needles but not the sides.

Yes, SubQ may sometimes cause issues that dont manifest IM. These issues seemingly dont exist either with SubQ Xyosted, a preparation without the usual preservatives or excipients.

Xyosted is just testosterone E in sesame oil

 

[jacb]

Xyosted is just testosterone E in sesame oil

Thanks eli

Xyosted would indeed seem to be Testosterone Enanthate supplied in an auto-injector device. They sell it in 50, 75 & 100 mg sizes for weekly injection into the abdomen.

However they say “The most common side effects of XYOSTED include: red blood cell increase”. I believe this to be a standard side effect of supplemental testosterone treatment, not just Xyosted. But since I am trying to reduce my HCT by switching to EOD SubQ it would seem counter productive to use Testosterone Enanthate (Xyosted) in my case.

 

[jacb]

I use the 29g half-in syringe for all my injections. Both Sub q and shallow IM. I really like the results using this method. As you know, I injected my shoulders, love handles and BG.

Thanks Vince

Tell me did you get these small nodules (lumps) forming when you inject SubQ? Yes they disparate as the product is used, but I didn’t feel anything like this when injection IM.

I also note that whilst the actual injection itself is utterly painless (31g) I am getting a little stinging from the Testosterone Cypionate when injected SubQ. that I didn’t get using IM?

I have only tried SunQ injecting in my abdomen. It just seems so much more convenient than my “love handles” etc.

 

[bixt]

Xyosted is just testosterone E in sesame oil

Sure sure, you are not wrong, but this is an example of disinformation by omission. Reread my post about what else is special about Xyosted.

 

[Vince]

Thanks Vince

Tell me did you get these small nodules (lumps) forming when you inject SubQ? Yes they disparate as the product is used, but I didn’t feel anything like this when injection IM.

I also note that whilst the actual injection itself is utterly painless (31g) I am getting a little stinging from the Testosterone Cypionate when injected SubQ. that I didn’t get using IM?

I have only tried SunQ injecting in my abdomen. It just seems so much more convenient than my “love handles” etc.

No I never gotten any small nodules. Occasionally I will get a bruise on my shoulder when I do. I skipped that area until the bruise is gone. I do small daily injections and HCG twice a week. When I inject HCG I just move over a half an inch next to my testosterone injection and inject there.

 

[Willyt]

Best solution is to do both shallow IM and subQ like Vince does. Mix it up. Good to rotate injection sites anyhow.

 

[jacb]

Best solution is to do both shallow IM and subQ like Vince does. Mix it up. Good to rotate injection sites anyhow.

I was going to do that, but IF the SubQ and IM routes have different absorption rates, then you will simply be driving your T levels higher when you use the IM shot.

A mix and match approach (SubQ/IM) seems counter productive for consistent T levels. In my case switching to injecting Every Other Day (EOD) was done to in an attempt to achieve more consistent T levels and hopefully by doing so, reduce my HCT.

 

[Willyt]

I was going to do that, but IF the SubQ and IM routes have different absorption rates, then you will simply be driving your T levels higher when you use the IM shot.

A mix and match approach (SubQ/IM) seems counter productive for consistent T levels. In my case switching to injecting Every Other Day (EOD) was done to in an attempt to achieve more consistent T levels and hopefully by doing so, reduce my HCT.

I could see that if you were using faster acting Propionate, but doubt you would see much of a difference with medium ester like Cypionate. Only one way to find out. That is the beauty of self-injections - just keep experimenting to see what works for you.