Revisiting the digit ratio (2D:4D) and TRT

[mcs]

Is the digit ratio an indicator to personal optimal testosterone level?

So, I have the unfortunate higher digit ratio, meaning I had reduced prenatal androgen exposure. A blessing when it comes to BPH and a curse when it comes to everything else.


At the end of the day, does it have any actionable benefit or are we talking junk science?

And would exogenous T improve things like boosting lean mass, dropping body fat, improving mood, confidence, etc. in someone who has a high digit ratio and low normal T levels? This study seems to indicate that a large % of males with higher digit ratios tend toward TRT.

One doc recently suggested I do a one shot trial of T to see if I notice any boost in mood/energy/libido before taking the one-way ticket plunge into TRTdom. Has anyone tried that? I question whether a one-shot trial would do anything that quickly.

 

[Cataceous]

...
One doc recently suggested I do a one shot trial of T to see if I notice any boost in mood/energy/libido before taking the one-way ticket plunge into TRTdom. Has anyone tried that? I question whether a one-shot trial would do anything that quickly.

The problem I see with this test is that it's not going to be representative of how you'd feel on TRT in the long run. You may get the honeymoon effect, with the surging exogenous androgens adding to your own production and boosting dopamine, making you feel great until your body adapts. Then you're misled into thinking that TRT is like that all the time, and like countless men you end up wasting a lot of time trying to recreate the experience and make it last longer. A trial like this also doesn't make you experience the consequences of HPTA shutdown, which can range from minor to quite significant.

A somewhat better approach could be a trial with testosterone nasal gel. The trial can be relatively prolonged, for at least a month or two, to give you a more realistic sense of what higher levels of testosterone will and will not do for you. If it goes well then it could become an indefinite treatment, or a prelude to conventional TRT. The big advantage of the nasal gel is that it does not significantly disrupt your HPTA and endogenous testosterone production. There's less worry about testicular atrophy, infertility and other side effects of conventional TRT.

 

[mcs]

The problem I see with this test is that it's not going to be representative of how you'd feel on TRT in the long run. You may get the honeymoon effect, with the surging exogenous androgens adding to your own production and boosting dopamine, making you feel great until your body adapts. Then you're misled into thinking that TRT is like that all the time, and like countless men you end up wasting a lot of time trying to recreate the experience and make it last longer. A trial like this also doesn't make you experience the consequences of HPTA shutdown, which can range from minor to quite significant.

A somewhat better approach could be a trial with testosterone nasal gel. The trial can be relatively prolonged, for at least a month or two, to give you a more realistic sense of what higher levels of testosterone will and will not do for you. If it goes well then it could become an indefinite treatment, or a prelude to conventional TRT. The big advantage of the nasal gel is that it does not significantly disrupt your HPTA and endogenous testosterone production. There's less worry about testicular atrophy, infertility and other side effects of conventional TRT.

Natesto (or compounded alternative). I'm scanning some previous threads on it in which some complained of headaches and nose bleeds and other nasal symptoms. I guess I would need to set those aside knowing the gel is only for short-term trial of a few weeks for the sole purpose of determining the subjective benefits of exogenous T.
Other than HPTA suppression, my other concerns are hypertension, hypercoagulation, worsening of sleep apnea and hair loss. I'm not concerned about infertility.

What about going with compounded trans-scrotal cream (my guess is the increase in DHT would suppress HPTA even worse)?
Or T base with no ester?
Or going with enclomiphene?

 

[madman]

Is the digit ratio an indicator to personal optimal testosterone level?

So, I have the unfortunate higher digit ratio, meaning I had reduced prenatal androgen exposure. A blessing when it comes to BPH and a curse when it comes to everything else.


At the end of the day, does it have any actionable benefit or are we talking junk science?

And would exogenous T improve things like boosting lean mass, dropping body fat, improving mood, confidence, etc. in someone who has a high digit ratio and low normal T levels? This study seems to indicate that a large % of males with higher digit ratios tend toward TRT.

One doc recently suggested I do a one shot trial of T to see if I notice any boost in mood/energy/libido before taking the one-way ticket plunge into TRTdom. Has anyone tried that? I question whether a one-shot trial would do anything that quickly.

I would put more weight behind sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor), SHBG level, polymorphism of the AR, and CAG repeat length (short/long), genetics.


post #8

Low Testosterone in Men: Recommendations on the diagnosis, treatment and monitoring

ABSTRACT The relative proportional increase of the elderly population within many countries will become one of the most significant social transformations of the twenty-first century and, for the first time in history, persons aged 65 or above outnumbered children under five years of age...

www.excelmale.com

Men's Response to Testosterone Depends on their CAG Repeats in Their AR Gene.

Androgen Sensitivity: Beyond the Well-Known © Irina A. Khripun*, Sergey V. Vorobyev Rostov State Medical University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia The gonadal and extragonadal effects of testosterone in men have been actively studied in recent years. To date there is no doubt an increased risk of...

www.excelmale.com

post #9/11

Androgen Receptor Health Assessment

Is it possible to test/assess the health of one's androgen receptors? I am just curious if there are tests that will predict the efficacy of TRT and/or determine the timeline of expected benefits. I would imagine Thyroid (TSH, T3, T4) is obvious. What else can be tested to determine AR health?

www.excelmale.com

post# 19

Considering weaning off of TRT

I started this journey about a year ago when I felt my sex drive and performance were limited. I was tested and came out at around 550 on T and the clinic recommended 140 weekly, which put me at about 1100 at the low. I was also put on an AI as the doctor strove to drive me under 25 on...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

Natesto (or compounded alternative). I'm scanning some previous threads on it in which some complained of headaches and nose bleeds and other nasal symptoms. I guess I would need to set those aside knowing the gel is only for short-term trial of a few weeks for the sole purpose of determining the subjective benefits of exogenous T.
Other than HPTA suppression, my other concerns are hypertension, hypercoagulation, worsening of sleep apnea and hair loss. I'm not concerned about infertility.

What about going with compounded trans-scrotal cream (my guess is the increase in DHT would suppress HPTA even worse)?
Or T base with no ester?
Or going with enclomiphene?

The use of exogenous T whether pellets, oral, patch, buccal, transdermal (gel/cream), injectable, will result in suppression of the HPG axis.

Natesto would be considered the least suppressive due to the short-lived peaks/long trough times between doses.

* All formulations, with the exception of the short-acting ones, have a target of long-term maintenance of SUSTAINED STEADY-STATE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS IN THE MID-NORMAL RANGE, which leads to suppression of the endogenous activity of the HPG axis

Would not even waste my time injecting T base with no ester multiple times/day let alone once daily!

Your best bet would be a trial of Natesto or enclomiphene.

The majority of sides on trt are the result of running too high an FT level let alone when it comes to cosmetic sides such as oily skin/acne, excess body hair, MPB, gynecomastia your genetics will have the final say.

 

[Systemlord]

One doc recently suggested I do a one shot trial of T to see if I notice any boost in mood/energy/libido before taking the one-way ticket plunge into TRTdom.

The problem with this approach is the first shot will start supressing your natural T and takes 4-6 weeks to reach steady states if you remain consistent and continue to inject every week and perhaps longer to feel the benefits.

Also one shot a week might not work for you, you may need two or more per week.

That one doc doesn't understand things very well.

 

[mcs]

The problem with this approach is the first shot will start supressing your natural T and takes 4-6 weeks to reach steady states if you remain consistent and continue to inject every week and perhaps longer to feel the benefits.

Also one shot a week might not work for you, you may need two or more per week.

That one doc doesn't understand things very well.

Actually, he meant to try a one-and-done shot and then evaluate how I feel.

 

[Systemlord]

Actually, he meant to try a one-and-done shot and then evaluate how I feel.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say, a one-a-done shot may not be enough to gauge how one feels and may not provide any benefit right away. Some guys take weeks or months of shots every week to start feeling the effects.

Hormones aren't like drugs where the affect is instant, the hormone (T) is bound to an ester. I didn't feel anything after my first shot, it took 4 shots or 4 weeks to "start" feeling it.

Hormones heal, repair tissue and that doesn't happen overnight.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PMC

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3–4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3–6 weeks with a maximum after 18–30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9–12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6–12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3–12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12–16 weeks, stabilize at 6–12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3–12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.

Your doctor that made that comment about a one shot trial of testosterone is a bit naive and most probably doesn't prescribe TRT often enough to know any better.

He's probably not a good choice to manage your TRT either.

 

[HarryCat2]

One of the first endocrinologists I saw did a one shot test on me. Gave me an injection of 200mg then had me get my T level tested a week later. I didn't feel anything from the shot, so he concluded that I was not a good candidate for TRT.

I later went on to see some other doctors and eventually did go on TRT. Other than a great honeymoon period I have not felt any subjective benefit from TRT long term, it's been about 9 years now.

 

[mcs]

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say, a one-a-done shot may not be enough to gauge how one feels and may not provide any benefit right away. Some guys take weeks or months of shots every week to start feeling the effects.

Hormones aren't like drugs where the affect is instant, the hormone (T) is bound to an ester. I didn't feel anything after my first shot, it took 4 shots or 4 weeks to "start" feeling it.

Hormones heal, repair tissue and that doesn't happen overnight.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PMC

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Your doctor that made that comment about a one shot trial of testosterone is a bit naive and most probably doesn't prescribe TRT often enough to know any better.

He's probably not a good choice to manage your TRT either.

I agree and frowned when he said, "you can try doing just one shot and see how you feel". I just wanted some consensual validation

 

[S1W]

One of the first endocrinologists I saw did a one shot test on me. Gave me an injection of 200mg then had me get my T level tested a week later. I didn't feel anything from the shot, so he concluded that I was not a good candidate for TRT.

I later went on to see some other doctors and eventually did go on TRT. Other than a great honeymoon period I have not felt any subjective benefit from TRT long term, it's been about 9 years now.

Gotta ask - why are you still doing it?

 

[HarryCat2]

Gotta ask - why are you still doing it?

Good question. I ask myself this a lot.
1. I honestly think I'm psychologically addicted to it. I think to only way I would actually be able to come off long term is if I threw away all of my T.
2. About 3-4 years in I tried switching to HCG mono in an attempt at a restart and had a very poor response. So if I try to come off permanently I would have very low levels, and I do think that this is not good for long term health.

 

[S1W]

Good question. I ask myself this a lot.
1. I honestly think I'm psychologically addicted to it. I think to only way I would actually be able to come off long term is if I threw away all of my T.
2. About 3-4 years in I tried switching to HCG mono in an attempt at a restart and had a very poor response. So if I try to come off permanently I would have very low levels, and I do think that this is not good for long term health.

Thanks for your response. I have to admit that although I definitely do receive some benefits from TRT, I also would consider myself somewhat psychologically addicted to it.

Funny..after 4.5 years of injecting myself every day/every other day, I kinda like it. It's part of my routine.