Propecia thoughts

[Appassionato]

I got my life destroyed by it and it's the reason I'm on TRT.
I highly recommend you to stay away from it, as the way the drug works in the body is still poorly understood.
A visit to this website should convince you not to ever put your hands on it:

Home - Welcome to the Post-Finasteride Foundation - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

Also, search online for hair loss scalp massage and you will get your answers on how to stop and revert your hair loss.
It worked great for me.

 

[Systemlord]

I got my life destroyed by it and it's the reason I'm on TRT.
I highly recommend you to stay away from it, as the way the drug works in the body is still poorly understood.
A visit to this website should convince you not to ever put your hands on it:

Home - Welcome to the Post-Finasteride Foundation - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

Also, search online for hair loss scalp massage and you will get your answers on how to stop and revert your hair loss.
It worked great for me.

What' not recorded is all the men who stopped propecia do to side effects who got out of it before the damage was done, some men while not suffering from PFS did find there way to the TRT world.

I like the link, puts things into perspective.

 

[fifty]

Wh

I got my life destroyed by it and it's the reason I'm on TRT.
I highly recommend you to stay away from it, as the way the drug works in the body is still poorly understood.
A visit to this website should convince you not to ever put your hands on it:

Home - Welcome to the Post-Finasteride Foundation - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

Also, search online for hair loss scalp massage and you will get your answers on how to stop and revert your hair loss.
It worked great for me.

what scalp massage? Anything specific?

 

[Laphroaig]

I usually take 1 1/4mg twice per week to keep my DHT levels between 20-30. At that frequency, everything works fine. If I take Finasteride every day I have problems. Currently, I'm off my HGB is drifting up 16.7 going to donate RBCs.

 

[Matthew1975]

Before I decided to get into medicine, I worked at Merck, the company that makes Propecia and Proscar. Talking with a biochemist I worked with there, I casually mentioned that I'd been taking Propecia, because anything Merck makes we could get for free at the plant clinic.

His face suddenly became very somber and he said, in a very serious and matter of fact voice, "I would NEVER take that." When I asked him why, he said he couldn't say specifically, but said "Just don't take it, trust me. Please stop taking it."

If you read the insert, you will see that Propecia (finasteride), does irreparable harm to the genitalia of male rats when given to pregnant rats.

Because of this, women of child-bearing age are not supposed to even touch anti-androgenic drugs such as Propecia because of the strong possibility of horrible birth defects. At work, it's discouraged for female nurses or pharmacy employees to touch such medication even while wearing gloves, because if there is a break in the glove, there is a risk.

Propecia, and it's brethren, were never meant for young men. The reason Proscar (a higher dose of finasteride, and the original form of the drug), which is taken for BPH, never raised any obvious red flags to the masses is because it was taken primarily by elderly men, so the effects on their testosterone and their entire male hormone profile wasn't as noticeable as it is in men who are young and healthy enough to be damaged by the drug's effects.

I cannot say this strongly enough: do not take Propecia, or any other anti-androgen.

 

[Appassionato]

Wh

what scalp massage? Anything specific?

Have a look at these links:

Hair Loss Research: Articles & Case Studies - Perfect Hair Health
masaje capilar para recuperar el cabello, scalp massage for recovery hair

The second device is the one I'm using, which focuses more on delivering blood to the scalp. It has been tested and manufactured by a Spanish engineer, hence the not so good English on the website. It stopped almost completely my hair loss from day 1.
But if you decide to go with Rob's method, there are plenty of medical studies about it and the only things you need are your hands and a lot of patience, costing you literally 0$.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Its weird how all my gero patients taking 5mg/day don't report the PFS side effects pertaining to mood or sexual dysfunction lol, or that indigenous tribe that has a genetic defect causing dysfunction in DHT don't report PFS-like symptoms. There is a huge component of Nocebo effect with this drug pertaining to PFS. Some guys tolerate it well, no issues with libido etc and some guys don't. If you are prone to anxiety/worry I would avoid the drug as this could likely result in thinking this drug caused some sort of long-term illness with you. The Harvard study demonstrates the gigantic nocebo effect and stigma this drug has. I wouldn't personally take it if I were balding but finding guys that have bad side effects from it are extremely rare and can almost all be found on the PFS forums perpetuating each others doom and gloom.

If you read reports about guys who have recovered from PFS, they admit there is a large psychological component to PFS and these guys have been shunned by the PFS community claiming they "never really had PFS." It's a debacle, but its a drug we always educate our patients on prior to prescribing. I don't personally believe it does any long-term damage, but if the patient believes it does there is no convincing them otherwise.

 

[Appassionato]

Its weird how all my gero patients taking 5mg/day don't report the PFS side effects pertaining to mood or sexual dysfunction lol, or that indigenous tribe that has a genetic defect causing dysfunction in DHT don't report PFS-like symptoms. There is a huge component of Nocebo effect with this drug pertaining to PFS. Some guys tolerate it well, no issues with libido etc and some guys don't. If you are prone to anxiety/worry I would avoid the drug as this could likely result in thinking this drug caused some sort of long-term illness with you. The Harvard study demonstrates the gigantic nocebo effect and stigma this drug has. I wouldn't personally take it if I were balding but finding guys that have bad side effects from it are extremely rare and can almost all be found on the PFS forums perpetuating each others doom and gloom.

If you read reports about guys who have recovered from PFS, they admit there is a large psychological component to PFS and these guys have been shunned by the PFS community claiming they "never really had PFS." It's a debacle, but its a drug we always educate our patients on prior to prescribing. I don't personally believe it does any long-term damage, but if the patient believes it does there is no convincing them otherwise.

It means you didn't really visit the PFS website and and a look at the statistic and the numbers, did you? Or ever saw videos of Dr. Crisler and Dr. Shippen talking about PFS.

I do agree with you there's a huge psychological component into it, but if Merck has been forced to write down permanent side effects into the drug warning label, it doesn't really matter everyone personal belief.

Especially in these days that the DHT theory about hair loss is falling apart, someone that keeps prescribing 5mg finasteride (!) to his patients is at least irresponsible.

 

[Vitamin_C]

It means you didn't really visit the PFS website and and a look at the statistic and the numbers, did you? Or ever saw videos of Dr. Crisler and Dr. Shippen talking about PFS.

I do agree with you there's a huge psychological component into it, but if Merck has been forced to write down permanent side effects into the drug warning label, it doesn't really matter everyone personal belief.

Especially in these days that the DHT theory about hair loss is falling apart, someone that keeps prescribing 5mg finasteride (!) to his patients is at least irresponsible.

We prescribe 5mg for prostate issues, not for hair loss. I've had none of my gero patients report PFS type symptoms at 5mg, which is perplexing because everyone who reports it is at 1mg and younger in age. I know Crisler and Shippens stance on Finasteride but the "permanent" stuff is laughable. The human body has a remarkable ability to heal itself internally, I don't subscribe to that at all, others may and that is fine, but that kind of thinking wraps you into having no hope, and its just toxic and unhealthy. The Harvard study showed people get placebo pills reported more side effects than the people actually receiving Finasteride, that is an important caveat that people are not taking into consideration. I'm not sitting here saying Finasteride doesn't cause nasty sides, but I've never had a patient report any PFS side effects to me personally. I know Crisler treated guys with PFS, some recovered, others rejected his protocol and did the fasting/lifestyle change etc and cured it. The mind is a powerful thing, if you believe something is permanent, what hope do you have other than a self-destroying prophecy? Patient education is important and I always educate patients on potential side effects but I let them use their own medical autonomy.

Also, why isn't that tribe who are running around with no DHT not reporting PFS sides to foreign doctors? How are they able to have kids if they can't get erections? You'd think they would have died off by now. Again, I'm not advocating for the drug at all and I wouldn't take it myself if I struggled with hair loss, I just want to provide support for those believing they have some incurable illness.

 

[Systemlord]

We prescribe 5mg for prostate issues, not for hair loss. I've had none of my gero patients report PFS type symptoms at 5mg, which is perplexing because everyone who reports it is at 1mg and younger in age. I know Crisler and Shippens stance on The single most consistent finding and the strongest environmental risk factor associated with RLS is iron insufficiency but the "permanent" stuff is laughable. The human body has a remarkable ability to heal itself internally, I don't subscribe to that at all, others may and that is fine, but that kind of thinking wraps you into having no hope, and its just toxic and unhealthy. The Harvard study showed people get placebo pills reported more side effects than the people actually receiving Finasteride, that is an important caveat that people are not taking into consideration. I'm not sitting here saying Finasteride doesn't cause nasty sides, but I've never had a patient report any PFS side effects to me personally. I know Crisler treated guys with PFS, some recovered, others rejected his protocol and did the fasting/lifestyle change etc and cured it. The mind is a powerful thing, if you believe something is permanent, what hope do you have other than a self-destroying prophecy? Patient education is important and I always educate patients on potential side effects but I let them use their own medical autonomy.

Also, why isn't that tribe who are running around with no DHT not reporting PFS sides to foreign doctors? How are they able to have kids if they can't get erections? You'd think they would have died off by now. Again, I'm not advocating for the drug at all and I wouldn't take it myself if I struggled with hair loss, I just want to provide support for those believing they have some incurable illness.

There are some guys design to be broken the moment they take Finasteride, the fact is that some haven't recovered in over ten years who were perfectly healthy only days prior to taking Finasteride.

My body didn't heal itself after taping off Klonopin, I went from 500-600 ranges to the 100 ranges.

I have no horse in this race, you're a prescriber of Finasteride and therefore have a bias.

 

[Appassionato]

We prescribe 5mg for prostate issues, not for hair loss. I've had none of my gero patients report PFS type symptoms at 5mg, which is perplexing because everyone who reports it is at 1mg and younger in age.

The explanation to that is in the post by Matthew1975, who worked at Merck.

I know Crisler and Shippens stance on Finasteride but the "permanent" stuff is laughable.

Once again, you keep ignoring the studies on the drug. This is just one out of the many:

Persistent sexual side effects of finasteride: could they be permanent? - PubMed - NCBI

You can find more published here:

Medical Literature - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation

The human body has a remarkable ability to heal itself internally, I don't subscribe to that at all, others may and that is fine, but that kind of thinking wraps you into having no hope, and its just toxic and unhealthy.

I agree with you on that and that's the reason why I didn't spend time writing how TRT helped me getting out of the tunnel on that forum, even if I'm not dialed in yet.
They would have just claimed I wasn't a PFS sufferer in any case.

I'm not sitting here saying Finasteride doesn't cause nasty sides, but I've never had a patient report any PFS side effects to me personally.

You're working with gero patients with prostate issues, as you claimed, not healthy young males.

I just want to provide support for those believing they have some incurable illness.

That's remarkable, but if I was you, I would have tried to find any other solution in order to avoid a finasteride prescription.

 

[Vitamin_C]

The explanation to that is in the post by Matthew1975, who worked at Merck.



Once again, you keep ignoring the studies on the drug. This is just one out of the many:

Persistent sexual side effects of finasteride: could they be permanent? - PubMed - NCBI

You can find more published here:

Medical Literature - The Post-Finasteride Syndrome Foundation




I agree with you on that and that's the reason why I didn't spend time writing how TRT helped me getting out of the tunnel on that forum, even if I'm not dialed in yet.
They would have just claimed I wasn't a PFS sufferer in any case.



You're working with gero patients with prostate issues, as you claimed, not healthy young males.



That's remarkable, but if I was you, I would have tried to find any other solution in order to avoid a finasteride prescription.

"could they be permanent"....this is something in research called "fuzzy words." There is just not enough data to conclude this medication causes permanent changes in the human body, If there is, someone needs to show the exact mechanism how this happens, no speculation please, there is plenty of that. The persistent changes could be psychosomatic for all we know, I think the Harvard study is important research to think about in this respect. Although I do see many gero patients at the VA, my specialty is in TRT medicine and I am currently trying to revamp the VA's testosterone delivery system. My vets on 5mg of Finasteride also don't report psychological side effects associated with the medication, which is also another purported effect of the drug in younger males while taking a much higher dose. The vets I see are also not cruising the PFS forums, likely perpetuating their own anxiety about the drug. I've stated before I am not a fan of the medication, I wouldn't take it myself and I don't suggest others do, but Finasteride is standard protocol for men with BPH, I seldom get any anecdotal reports that its causing issues, individuals may vary. Personally, I'd rather be a buff bald guy than to try and save my hair with Finasteride but I respect individual autonomy as long as I educate patients on the risks.

 

[Vitamin_C]

There are some guys design to be broken the moment they take Finasteride, the fact is that some haven't recovered in over ten years who were perfectly healthy only days prior to taking Finasteride.

My body didn't heal itself after taping off Klonopin, I went from 500-600 ranges to the 100 ranges.

I have no horse in this race, you're a prescriber of Finasteride and therefore have a bias.

Finasteride is the standard protocol for guys with BPH, there are a lot of medications I don't like, but if I educate a patient on the risks and they still want the drug, its not my place to talk them out of it, I am a strong proponent for medical autonomy.

 

[Matthew1975]

Cipro and Levaquin used to be standard protocol for certain infections, now they have Black Box warnings and are to be used only if a different antibiotic cannot be used or there is simply nothing else indicated due to the severity of the infection.

Something to remember about drugs and how they are approved.

Clinical trials are set up and run by the pharmaceutical companies. Many people are under the impression that the FDA has a team of researchers that run clinical trials and thus are responsible for the data, reporting, and conclusions of such trials. It should be known, that the drug companies run the clinical trials, collect and collate the data, and FDA reviews what is provided to them by the drug companies. Drug companies can carefully exclude patients that "upon further review, do not meet criteria to be included in the trial".

This PubMed abstract of a meta-analysis finds that the studies involving the safety reporting of finasteride are inadequate and are likely biased.

Adverse Event Reporting in Clinical Trials of Finasteride for Androgenic Alopecia: A Meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

Here is a link to the full article.

Adverse Event Reporting in Clinical Trials of Finasteride for Alopecia

Vioxx, Baycol, Fenfluramine, Seldane, Darvocet, Meridia, Rezulin, Bextra, Pergoglide, among others, were all at one point FDA approved without restriction, all have since been banned.

I have no reason to doubt my former co-worker at work, as a biochemist who worked on Propecia, he warned me because of his direct knowledge of the product, but couldn't be specific in his warnings as it could cost him his career if I decided to say "Hey, C*** R*** told me the following about Propecia."

I stand by what I said before, and I also agree with Vitamin_C: I believe in medication autonomy, and would much rather be physically healthy and look and feel better than I would have a good head of hair, but have my health suffer.

As long as prescribers have a detailed discussion with people who want to use medications such as finasteride and dutasteride for such things as androgenic alopecia, which while unfortunate, is not a life-threatening condition, then it comes down to the client wanting the drug and the clinical judgement of the prescriber as to whether they are okay with issuing a prescription for the drug.

 

[Simon7]

I was prescribed oral finestride by my dermatologist some 12 years ago. It killed my libido and erections. I quit it within 2 weeks and fortunately bounced back quickly.

 

[easternpromise]

I was prescribed oral finestride by my dermatologist some 12 years ago. It killed my libido and erections. I quit it within 2 weeks and fortunately bounced back quickly.

Most people experience that in the first few weeks and freak out. But with time, that will usually resolve. Less then 2% of people have continued issues. When I started TRT I had all kinds of issues. Took time to adjust.

I think it is strange that finasteride is the only drug Ive read about where people are giving such warnings over less then a 2% chance... and that chance most likely is reversible anyway. but the same people support clomid, anti estrogens, etc etc. Its just interesting what the internet can do.

 

[Vvs1]

Most people experience that in the first few weeks and freak out. But with time, that will usually resolve. Less then 2% of people have continued issues. When I started TRT I had all kinds of issues. Took time to adjust.

I think it is strange that finasteride is the only drug Ive read about where people are giving such warnings over less then a 2% chance... and that chance most likely is reversible anyway. but the same people support clomid, anti estrogens, etc etc. Its just interesting what the internet can do.

You don't know it's 2%, that's one sided, and this kind of comment on a PFS board would get questions about who you're working for.

Imagine 2 out of 100 friends you know have PFS. Systematically debilitating brain fog so bad you can't remember your name, extreme anxiety, hypogonadism, man parts shrink, gyno, lose your family.

There's a lot of people on it, and the number is likely higher than 2%.

 

[fifty]

Systematically debilitating brain fog so bad you can't remember your name, extreme anxiety, hypogonadism, man parts shrink, gyno, lose your family.

A bit dramatic don’t you think?

 

[easternpromise]

You don't know it's 2%, that's one sided, and this kind of comment on a PFS board would get questions about who you're working for.

Imagine 2 out of 100 friends you know have PFS. Systematically debilitating brain fog so bad you can't remember your name, extreme anxiety, hypogonadism, man parts shrink, gyno, lose your family.

There's a lot of people on it, and the number is likely higher than 2%.

so 2% get all of the above at once??? Lose your family? Ok man thats a little much.... If the PFS board, whatever that is, considered who I am working for after my comment, then that Board has indeed lost their minds.

just in case you want real data, i have now about 5 friends and family on it, some for over 10 years, no complaints. btw, the 2% get sexual sides, most of which is reversable after stopping. so the permanent affect guys is a really really low number.

Do you by chance use clomid or any anti estrogens?

 

[Vvs1]

so 2% get all of the above at once??? Lose your family? Ok man thats a little much.... If the PFS board, whatever that is, considered who I am working for after my comment, then that Board has indeed lost their minds.

just in case you want real data, i have now about 5 friends and family on it, some for over 10 years, no complaints. btw, the 2% get sexual sides, most of which is reversable after stopping. so the permanent affect guys is a really really low number.

Do you by chance use clomid or any anti estrogens?

No, I don't use anything.

What source do you have for 2%? It's likely one sided, not independent, and an underreported amount.

It's mostly the younger guys that have PFS. Other guys have PFS and not know the Propecia caused it.

Yes, guys have had wives and kids leave them, and the young guys don't have a chance at starting a family.