Primo fo estrogen management!

DixieWrecked · Nov 18, 2022

Stoak said:
I feel great consistently. As good as I have ever felt on TRT. Just bigger and stronger. I have had bad periods on TRT too mostly revolving around nandrolone. Straight test I feel good as well as long as I'm 160 or a bit lower area. I'm guessing here but I bet if I dropped down to 200 test + 125 primo once per week I may be able to get my blood markers in order and do this therapy in perpetuity without an AI. I'd need to stop bulking obviously... and this bulk has been SLOW. I've been adding less than a pound per week.

That's great news. Obviously you found a really good ratio. 2-1 test to primo. Thanks for experimenting with this.

Stoak · Nov 18, 2022

readalot said:
You nailed it; the trig/hdl-c ratio is the real tell. Major deterioration in the ratio which is good proxy for your lipid particle counts (NMR test...size of your LDL, HDL particles, etc).

References:

Mid-Blast Blood Work

LDL or more accurately LDL-C is an incomplete metric. See here and links I shared above: I will share them again: Read this thread: Does this make sense @throwawayfitness? LDL-p (particle sizes are important). Trig/hdl-c is a cheap indirect measure if you do not want to pay for...

forums.t-nation.com

I found my natural bloodwork from earlier this year. I was taking off TRT to make a baby... I had been off of everything for 6 months here and eating normally while weighing 30 pounds less.

My total cholesterol was similar at 223
My LDL was 36 points lower and still not great at 133
My HDL was 79! That's 49 points higher than the recent draw of 30.
My Triglycerides we're 57 and the cholesterol calc ratio was 2.8 well within range.

tareload · Nov 18, 2022

Stoak said:
My LDL was 36 points lower and still not great at 133

Thanks for the methodical recap. Excellent work.

Standard equation for LDL,calc not accurate for those with good trig values and avg to slightly high total cholesterol.

See here.

Test C, NPP, and Anavar

It’s calculated as part of the panel which if I remember correctly is overestimated for folks on the low end for triglycerides. EDIT: here’s the paper I am thinking of. High total cholesterol and low triglycerides causes overestimation is what I should have said. Abstract Most clinical...

forums.t-nation.com

Test C, NPP, and Anavar

Just to finish this topic, here’s the breakdown with some examples: Check out the “diff” column which shows how much someone’s LDL-calc will be overestimated if they have average to a little high on Total Cholesterol and low triglycerides. First equation is Friedewald and second equation is...

forums.t-nation.com

Check out the “diff” column which shows how much someone’s LDL-calc will be overestimated if they have average to a little high on Total Cholesterol and low triglycerides.

First equation is Friedewald and second equation is modified form for “group A” patients. Huge bias as you get into the 200s for total and are below 100 for triglycerides.

Stoak · Nov 20, 2022

readalot said:
Thanks for the methodical recap. Excellent work.

Standard equation for LDL,calc not accurate for those with good trig values and avg to slightly high total cholesterol.

See here.

Test C, NPP, and Anavar

It’s calculated as part of the panel which if I remember correctly is overestimated for folks on the low end for triglycerides. EDIT: here’s the paper I am thinking of. High total cholesterol and low triglycerides causes overestimation is what I should have said. Abstract Most clinical...

forums.t-nation.com

Test C, NPP, and Anavar

Just to finish this topic, here’s the breakdown with some examples: Check out the “diff” column which shows how much someone’s LDL-calc will be overestimated if they have average to a little high on Total Cholesterol and low triglycerides. First equation is Friedewald and second equation is...

forums.t-nation.com

Check out the “diff” column which shows how much someone’s LDL-calc will be overestimated if they have average to a little high on Total Cholesterol and low triglycerides.

First equation is Friedewald and second equation is modified form for “group A” patients. Huge bias as you get into the 200s for total and are below 100 for triglycerides.

Can you dumb this down for me a little bit? Are you implying that my LDL actually isn't that bad bc my HDL and triglycerides we're so good on my natty bloods?

tareload · Nov 21, 2022

Stoak said:
Are you implying that my LDL actually isn't that bad bc my HDL and triglycerides we're so good on my natty bloods?

Yes. From the final paragraph of paper above:

I provided both equations above and some examples in the table.

Either measure directly or use one of the updated formulas to compare against "Friedewald" formula which may be misleading. Unfortunately many clinicians seem to overlook this issue for patients with excellent trig values.

Stoak · Feb 3, 2023

Something bizarre happened. I ended this cycle 9 weeks ago and resumed my TRT regimen of 70mg E3.5d + HCG 500iu and I saw my urologist and my total T is 1500+ and E2 is 52. How is this possible after 9 weeks on 140mg? I had my last shot of 200mg test + 125mg primo 10 weeks ago!

I should be 800 TT and 25 E2 at that dose.

It's so strange bc I knew something was off I was getting acne soon after stopping the primo and returning to TRT. My E2 must have been thru the roof this whole time.... whereas when it was 26 on the primo, I didn't even have a pimple.

RodgerDodger · Thursday at 9:59 PM

eli said:
It lowers E2 but nothing like an AI.
I get some nasty side effects from AIs, side effects irrelevant to estrogen levels.

are you still using primo as an AI? I feel like I get the same nasty effects as from anastrazole as well...

RodgerDodger · Thursday at 10:00 PM

Stoak said:
Something bizarre happened. I ended this cycle 9 weeks ago and resumed my TRT regimen of 70mg E3.5d + HCG 500iu and I saw my urologist and my total T is 1500+ and E2 is 52. How is this possible after 9 weeks on 140mg? I had my last shot of 200mg test + 125mg primo 10 weeks ago!

I should be 800 TT and 25 E2 at that dose.

It's so strange bc I knew something was off I was getting acne soon after stopping the primo and returning to TRT. My E2 must have been thru the roof this whole time.... whereas when it was 26 on the primo, I didn't even have a pimple.

RodgerDodger · Thursday at 10:02 PM

Gman86 said:
Exactly. It’s the best of both worlds. It manages E2, while also bringing with it some added benefits of the compound itself. I’ve said it a few times, but I really do hope it becomes legal to prescribe in most or all countries, and guys get just use low dose primo to manage E2 and to a degree prolactin, and don’t have to ever use AI’s ever again

Do you still use primo as an ai? Any if so, any sides like hair loss?

Jerajera · Friday at 1:56 PM

Primo acted as a very strong AI for me. On 20mg/day Test C my E2 (sensitive) is typically around 50-60pg/mL.

6 weeks after adding 10mg/day of Primo, my E2 had dropped to 10pg/mL. My HDL was absolutely trashed (dropped from 65 to 40) and LDL went up significantly as well.

For me at least, Primo is definitely not healthy long term and I think people really overstate how mild it is, even around 50-100mg/week.

This was HPLC blind tested Primo, so 100% legit.

RodgerDodger · Friday at 2:06 PM

Jerajera said:
Primo acted as a very strong AI for me. On 20mg/day Test C my E2 (sensitive) is typically around 50-60pg/mL.

6 weeks after adding 10mg/day of Primo, my E2 had dropped to 10pg/mL. My HDL was absolutely trashed (dropped from 65 to 40) and LDL went up significantly as well.

For me at least, Primo is definitely not healthy long term and I think people really overstate how mild it is, even around 50-100mg/week.

This was HPLC blind tested Primo, so 100% legit.

Interesting...I'm currently taking 200mg per week (split dose) and my E2 is in the high 60's (it could easily be in the 70's on my 'peak day'). I was considering doing 50mg per week (split dose) so 25mg with each 100mg test injection. I'm also on 300iu M/W/F HCG. Meaning between my high Test dose, high E2 and relatively high HCG dose (which obviously makes e2 levels more resilient to AIs and DHT derivatives), I'm wondering if 50mg per week of Primo will be just mild enough to get me into the 20 - 30 E2 range?

Any other sides? Hair loss for example?

DixieWrecked · Friday at 2:15 PM

RodgerDodger said:
Interesting...I'm currently taking 200mg per week (split dose) and my E2 is in the high 60's (it could easily be in the 70's on my 'peak day'). I was considering doing 50mg per week (split dose) so 25mg with each 100mg test injection. I'm also on 300iu M/W/F HCG. Meaning between my high Test dose, high E2 and relatively high HCG dose (which obviously makes e2 levels more resilient to AIs and DHT derivatives), I'm wondering if 50mg per week of Primo will be just mild enough to get me into the 20 - 30 E2 range?

Any other sides? Hair loss for example?

Its gonna be hard to not crash your estrogen with primo if your estrogen is at 60. maybe you could take like 35mgs a week and see what happens. I have blood work coming back anyday with 210 test 70 primo a week and 300HCG eod. Felt like death.

Jerajera · Friday at 2:28 PM

RodgerDodger said:
Interesting...I'm currently taking 200mg per week (split dose) and my E2 is in the high 60's (it could easily be in the 70's on my 'peak day'). I was considering doing 50mg per week (split dose) so 25mg with each 100mg test injection. I'm also on 300iu M/W/F HCG. Meaning between my high Test dose, high E2 and relatively high HCG dose (which obviously makes e2 levels more resilient to AIs and DHT derivatives), I'm wondering if 50mg per week of Primo will be just mild enough to get me into the 20 - 30 E2 range?

Any other sides? Hair loss for example?

You can try, everyone is affected differently, but I wouldn't expect even 50mg/week to be without consequences long term.

My hair gets nuked on TRT regardless so it's hard for me to really notice a difference over 6 weeks, plus I don't really care about hair so I don't really pay attention at all.

That said, anecdotally a lot of guys say that Primo in their experience is the worst offender when it comes to hairloss, even more so than Masteron.

RodgerDodger · Friday at 2:53 PM

DixieWrecked said:
Its gonna be hard to not crash your estrogen with primo if your estrogen is at 60. maybe you could take like 35mgs a week and see what happens. I have blood work coming back anyday with 210 test 70 primo a week and 300HCG eod. Felt like death.

Oh shit! That's more or less what I was going to run? Sounds like it totally tanked your E2.... Definitely report back if you could!!!!